Originally posted by Frater210
OK. So we understand now that the dye is responding to areas with high concentrations of negative hydrogen ions. That is how the patterns are seen
(remember; time lapsed over eighteen hours).
Thanks for the update with information from the paper! That was helpful.
However there's no such thing as a "negative hydrogen ion" unless you're talking about antimatter, which I'm sure the researchers weren't dealing
with. In water, hydrogen ions are positive, and the hydroxyl anions form a diatomic ion with a negative charge, also known as hydroxide. While I do
know the chemistry of water, I don't know enough about cellular chemistry to say if those are the particular ions involved in what is seen in the
I don't know if the researchers even know what ions are involved. I just tried again to access the paper from that link, I'm not sure how you did
edit on 20-7-2011 by Arbitrageur because: clarification
It appears that this single cell gets an "image" of the structure the cell will eventually grow into (frog face) BEFORE it begins growing!!! You
can actually see the frog to be's face!
The face of a frog: Time-lapse video reveals never-before-seen bioelectric pattern
For the first time, Tufts University biologists have reported that bioelectrical signals are necessary for normal head and facial formation in an
organism and have captured that process in a time-lapse video that reveals never-before-seen patterns of visible bioelectrical signals outlining where
eyes, nose, mouth, and other features will appear in an embryonic tadpole.
This is ground breaking, and amazing. Is it the SPIRIT of the frog which "guides" the cells?? Or is it just science? YOU DECIDE!!!!
edit on 19-7-2011 by Cryptonomicon because: (no reason given)
I went ahead and contacted Laura Vandenberg, Ph.D from Tuft’s University. She and her research associates, Dany S. Adams, Ph.D and Ryan D. Morrie
are the team that conducted the research that resulted in the video we are looking at.
She was kind enough to come by and take a look at our thread and I would like to post her return email along with the Tuft’s University PR press
release that she sent along with it.
Thanks for your email. I’m pasting below the text from a PR release written by folks here at Tufts University . I didn’t have time to read through
the entire thread of comments, but a few points that might be helpful to you.
At the beginning of the video, the embryo at the bottom is about 18 hours old. It is not a single cell – it has millions/billions of cells.
At this stage, there are no craniofacial organs. As the video progresses, the bright flashes are areas where the cells are hyperpolarized – they are
more negative on the inside. (Think of each cell as a battery… hyperpolarized cells have the negative end inside and depolarized cells have the
positive end inside.)
The hyperpolarized cells mark a sort of pre-pattern, in that they light up areas several hours before genes get turned on to tell those cells which
structures to make.
These aren’t simply artifacts that happen to align with craniofacial structures. We used molecular tools to disrupt these hyperpolarized patterns,
and those embryos developed into tadpoles missing the relevant facial structures. (For example, if the hyperpolarized region that pre-marks the eye is
not hyperpolarized, the animal produces no eye on that side, or a badly malformed eye.)
We have no technology to determine if frog embryos have a “spirit”!
Best wishes, Laura
So there we go. Great thanks to Professor Laura Vandenberg for helping us out at ATS.
Now here is the Tuft's University press release.
Tufts PR Release:
The Face of a Frog: Time-lapse Video Reveals Never-Before-Seen Bioelectric Pattern
MEDFORD/SOMERVILLE, Mass.--For the first time, Tufts University biologists have reported that bioelectrical signals are necessary for normal head and
facial formation in an organism and have captured that process in time-lapse video that reveals never-before-seen patterns of visible bioelectrical
signals outlining where eyes, nose, mouth, and other features will appear in an embryonic tadpole.
The Tufts research with accompanying video and photographs will appear July 18 online in advance of publication in the journal Developmental Dynamics.
The Tufts biologists found that, before the face of a tadpole develops, bioelectrical signals (ion flux) cause groups of cells to form patterns marked
by different membrane voltage and pH levels. When stained with a reporter dye, hyperpolarized (negatively charged) areas shine brightly, while other
areas appear darker, creating an "electric face."
"When a frog embryo is just developing, before it gets a face, a pattern for that face lights up on the surface of the embryo," said senior author
Dany S. Adams, Ph.D. Adams is a research associate professor in the Department of Biology in the Tufts School of Arts and Sciences and a member of the
Tufts Center for Regenerative and Developmental Biology. "We believe this is the first time such patterning has been reported for an entire structure,
not just for a single organ. I would never have predicted anything like it. It's a jaw dropper."
Tufts Post Doctoral Associate Laura N. Vandenberg, Ph.D., was first author of the paper entitled "V-ATPase-dependent ectodermal voltage and pH
regionalization are required for craniofacial morphogenesis." Ryan D. Morrie , a biology major in the School of Arts and Sciences, was second
The discovery was a case of scientific serendipity. Adams has spent years studying bioelectrical patterning and left-right developmental differences.
Her frequent research tool is a camera hooked up to a microscope that sends images to a computer.
One evening in September 2009 Adams was making time-lapse movies of early stage tadpole development. The images were coming out particularly
clearly—no small achievement when filming tiny living creatures. She decided to leave the camera on overnight even though she anticipated that as
the developing embryos began to move, the images would likely become too blurred to be useful.
When Adams arrived the next morning, the image on the computer monitor was out of focus as expected. But when she finished processing the rest of the
images, she found they were clear. The movies were, she says, "unlike anything I had ever seen. I was completely blown away. I think I thought
something like, 'OK, I know what I'll be studying for the next 20 years.'"
The imagery revealed three stages, or courses, of bioelectric activity.
First, a wave of hyperpolarization (negative ions) flashed across the entire embryo, coinciding with the emergence of cilia that enable the embryos to
move. Next, patterns appeared that matched the imminent shape changes and gene expression domains of the developing face. Bright hyperpolarization
marked the folding in of the surface, while both hyperpolarized and depolarized regions overlapped domains of head patterning genes. In the third
course, localized regions of hyperpolarization formed, expanded and disappeared, but without disturbing the patterns created during the second stage.
At the same time, the spherical embryo began to elongate.
The Tufts team found that disrupting bioelectric signaling by inhibiting ductin (a protein that is part of the machinery that transports hydrogen
ions) correlated with craniofacial abnormalities. Some embryos grew two brains rather than one; others had thickened optic nerves or lacked normal
nasal or jaw development. Interrupting the ion flux also altered the bioelectric patterns on the embryos' surface and expression of important face
patterning mRNAs (messenger RNA that acts as a blueprint for proteins).
"Our research shows that the electrical state of a cell is fundamental to development. Bioelectrical signaling appears to regulate a sequence of
events, not just one," said Laura Vandenberg. "Developmental biologists are used to thinking of sequences in which a gene produces a protein product
that in turn ultimately leads to development of an eye or a mouth. But our work suggests that something else – a bioelectrical signal - is required
before that can happen. "
Adams and Vandenberg note that more research is needed to discover if bioelectrical signaling works the same in frogs as in other animals, including
people, and if an "electric face" exists in human development. However, they believe that study of such signaling holds great potential.
"Studying bioelectrical signaling has led us to a different, and broader, way of thinking about diseases like cancer, birth defects and tissue
regeneration," Adams notes. "Potentially we can find electrical switches that turn on entire developmental cascades rather than having to find many
specific tools that turn on many specific genes within that cascade, as is the current approach with gene therapy. After all, we already have tools
for regulating some of these bioelectrical signals, such as drugs that prevent acid reflux by controlling potassium and hydrogen ions."
Funding for this research came from the National Institutes of Health, a NIH National Research Service Award, and a Tufts Russell L. Carpenter Summer
Internship for undergraduate Ryan Morrie. Morrie will continue to work on the project as a Poskitt Fellow with the Department of Biology.
Tufts University , located on three Massachusetts campuses in Boston , Medford/Somerville, and Grafton, and in Talloires , France , is recognized
among the premier research universities in the United States . Tufts enjoys a global reputation for academic excellence and for the preparation of
students as leaders in a wide range of professions. A growing number of teaching and research initiatives span all Tufts campuses, and collaboration
among the faculty and students in the undergraduate, graduate and professional programs across the university's schools is widely encouraged.
Laura N. Vandenberg, PhD
So there you have it, ATS. Have a good evening.
P.s. We have been focused on the little guy on the left and his face but what happened to the little fellow on the right?
He is right here...
We are looking at his back. Closest to us are what will be his back legs and butt. Forward of that is what is becoming the head and face. Watch the
vid again and you will see it.
Thanks again to Professor Laura.
"Invisible organizing regions of influence, like the magnetic field around a magnet."
Hi one more time.
So if you would like to go for bonus rounds with your new found interest in Biology here is a short video featuring Rupert Sheldrake speaking about
I would also like to add once more, cuz' I can't help being me, that folks should be watching the fields of Biology and Computer Science very
carefully. Much more important stuff going on there than what is happening with this 'Summer of Anonymous'.
Take care, All.
edit on 20-7-2011 by Frater210 because: Improved vid
My sincerest apologies to Professor Laura Vandenberg for my misunderstandings and misstatements about your research in my Original Post (OP)!! Thank
you for taking the time to correct us, and explain what was happening. I have to admit (if it wasn't already obvious) that I got a little too excited
about what I was watching/reading and misunderstood the part that the image wasn't a single cell, but rather millions of cells. That being said, the
results are no less amazing and ground breaking. Congratulations on your success and recognition, you are doing science and the world a great
Ah, what a thread, thanks for the direct replys from the experiments author! Although, I think she is missing out on some of whats happening by
viewing the cells as a battery instead of a non polarized capacitor. What do I know though. I have been messing around with robotics lately so maybe
I'm just seeing stuff parallel each other more than it does. Although the systems theory you turned me onto suggests otherwise.
It's times like this I wish there were publicly availlable labs. Dying a frog embryo does not present itself as being overly difficult, but the camera
and clean/sterile lab area is a problem. I would love to add some various meters to glean more about what is happening on the energy side.
on 7/20/2011 by LordBaskettIV because: (no reason given)
Hey, I thought you would be interested in this since you have been checking out GST and cybernetics. It's from the very bottom of the PR release
A growing number of teaching and research initiatives span all Tufts campuses, and collaboration among the faculty and students in the
undergraduate, graduate and professional programs across the university's schools is widely encouraged.
They are doing it because they have to and it is just plain more fun. They just don't call it cybernetics. They call it
There is no way a single branch of study would have gotten as far as they have on its own. As far as I can tell it is the Computer Science that is
bringing it all together.
I found a really good rundown of the basic electrical nature of our cell membranes. I wanted to try to nutshell this for everybody myself but this
writer has done such a bitchin job that I am just going to let her explain it...
Negativity is the natural resting state of your cells. It's related to a slight imbalance between potassium and sodium ions inside and outside the
cell, and this imbalance sets the stage for your electrical capacity.
Your cell membranes practice a trick often referred to as the sodium-potassium gate. It's a very complex mechanism, but the simple explanation of
these gates, and how they generate electrical charges, goes like this:
At rest, your cells have more potassium ions inside than sodium ions, and there are more sodium ions outside the cell. Potassium ions are negative, so
the inside of a cell has a slightly negative charge. Sodium ions are positive, so the area immediately outside the cell membrane is positive. There
isn't a strong enough charge difference to generate electricity, though, in this resting state.
When the body needs to send a message from one point to another, it opens the gate. When the membrane gate opens, sodium and potassium ions move
freely into and out of the cell. Negatively charged potassium ions leave the cell, attracted to the positivity outside the membrane, and positively
charged sodium ions enter it, moving toward the negative charge.
The result is a switch in the concentrations of the two types of ions -- and rapid switch in charge. It's kind of like switching between a 1 and 0 --
this flip between positive and negative generates an electrical impulse. This impulse triggers the gate on the next cell to open, creating another
charge, and so on. In this way, an electrical impulse moves from a nerve in your stubbed toe to the part of your brain that senses pain.
It's also how the SA node tells your heart muscles to contract, how your eyes tell your brain that what they just saw is the word "brain," and how you
are comprehending this article at all.
Since everything relies on these electrical signals, any breakdown in your body's electrical system is a real problem. When you get an electric shock,
it interrupts the normal operation of the system, sort of like a power surge. A shock at the lightning level can cause your body to stop. The
electrical process doesn't work anymore -- it's fried.
There are also less dramatic problems, like an SA node misfire that causes a heart palpitation (an extra heartbeat), or a lack of blood flow to the
heart that upsets the pacemaker and causes other parts of the heart to start sending out impulses. This is sometimes what causes someone to die from
coronary artery disease, or narrowing of the arteries. If the heart is constantly being told to contract, it never gets in a full contraction, and it
can't get enough blood to the rest of body, leading to oxygen deprivation and a possible heart attack or stroke.
With so much electricity jumping around, it may seem like the body is a really great power source. But could human beings really power the Matrix?
A human body can only generate between 10 and 100 millivolts [source: NanoMedicine]. A cathode ray tube requires about 25,000 volts to create a
picture on a TV
If the machines could gather millions of electric eels, on the other hand, they'd be well juiced up. A single eel can produce in the area of 600 volts
[source: Physics Factbook].
Incredible stuff, profound implications on many levels.
I think it would give some support to the "Ebner Effect" genetic modification under static electric fields.
It reads like science fiction and suggests scientific suppression, so I was never sure if it was real or not.
However there are several reasons why I believe it could be true, this discovery adds to them.
Unexpectedly primeval organisms grew out of these seeds and eggs: a fern that no botanist was able to identify; primeval corn with up to twelve
ears per stalk; wheat that was ready to be harvested in just four to six weeks. And giant trout, extinct in Europe for 130 years, with so-called
salmon hooks. It was as if these organisms accessed their own genetic memories on command in the electric field, a phenomenon, which the English
biochemist, Rupert Sheldrake, for instance believes is possible.
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