San Francisco Police Shoot and Kill Teenager over $2 bus fare GRAPHIC VIDEO

reply to post by berkeleygal


self inflicted fatal shot to the head? did i miss something? it does not look like he is bleeding from the head in the video and he appears to be consious. and a shell casing that did not come from the criminal?

Originally posted by Xcathdra
..........and with that, ill be back in the thread when results from the gun testing come out that links the gun to the kid and the crime scene. That should give you more than enough time to rethink your argument and get your facts straight.

Does it make ANY sense
for someone to run from the cops over
a 2 dollar ticket?

Not unless they had a warrant or a gun on them maybe.

Illegal fire arm in san fran, your going to prison....

PUBLIC APOLOGY TO XCATHDRAreply to post by Xcathdra



I want to start my comment by publicly apologizing to XCATHDRA.

As I have stated before, I was NOT defending the kid. I also have stated that WE DIDNT KNOW ALL THE FACTS. Further, I have stated numerous times, that I usually fall on the side of law enforcement.

Facts appear to be coming out that would lead one to believe it was a suicide. see link...

www.sfgate.com.../c/a/2011/07 /21/BAAU1KDJ6H.DTL#ixzz1SnjIThil

So, thanks to Xcathdra for picking my brain and hope you accept my apology. That said, I have also stated many times that most of the trouble in the Bay View comes from people from OUTSIDE the district that think that this is where they come to prove their manhood. Hopefully, cooler heads will now prevail. Mine included.

Thank you.

Originally posted by lifeform11
reply to post by berkeleygal

 

self inflicted fatal shot to the head? did i miss something? it does not look like he is bleeding from the head in the video and he appears to be consious. and a shell casing that did not come from the criminal?

The .380 ACP is a pipsqueak round, especially if it's a FMJ round. The suspect also didn't die on the scene but several hours later in the hospital (can't remember if it was on the table or after surgery).

The .45 casing is tossing up a red flag for me although given the neighborhood from what people who have lived there have said an unrelated shell casing wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

The video showing the gun on the ground reveals the weapon to be a small caliber "junk gun" that can be purchased for 50-65 bucks legally and for around 200 bucks on the street which makes more sense considering the suspects background.

As for being conscious I've seen a Kurd take 3 AK rounds from 5m in the face and not only did he live he recuperated to the point of functionality so head wounds are not immediately fatal in all instances.

Originally posted by hillynilly
Does it make ANY sense
for someone to run from the cops over
a 2 dollar ticket?

Not unless they had a warrant or a gun on them maybe.

Illegal fire arm in san fran, your going to prison....

edit on 21-7-2011 by hillynilly because: (no reason given)

He was out of state while being on parole from charges emanating from child rape, kidnapping and child prostituion and apparently carrying a firearm in violation of not only his parole but also federal law in regard to felon in possession of a firearm as well as fleeing 4 warrants for two counts of murder and 3 of attempted murder.

Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by lifeform11
reply to post by berkeleygal

 

self inflicted fatal shot to the head? did i miss something? it does not look like he is bleeding from the head in the video and he appears to be consious. and a shell casing that did not come from the criminal?

The .380 ACP is a pipsqueak round, especially if it's a FMJ round. The suspect also didn't die on the scene but several hours later in the hospital (can't remember if it was on the table or after surgery).

The .45 casing is tossing up a red flag for me although given the neighborhood from what people who have lived there have said an unrelated shell casing wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

The video showing the gun on the ground reveals the weapon to be a small caliber "junk gun" that can be purchased for 50-65 bucks legally and for around 200 bucks on the street which makes more sense considering the suspects background.

As for being conscious I've seen a Kurd take 3 AK rounds from 5m in the face and not only did he live he recuperated to the point of functionality so hard wounds are not immediately fatal in all instances.

Originally posted by hillynilly
Does it make ANY sense
for someone to run from the cops over
a 2 dollar ticket?

Not unless they had a warrant or a gun on them maybe.

Illegal fire arm in san fran, your going to prison....

edit on 21-7-2011 by hillynilly because: (no reason given)

He was out of state while being on parole from charges emanating from child rape, kidnapping and child prostituion and apparently carrying a firearm in violation of not only his parole but also federal law in regard to felon in possession of a firearm as well as fleeing 4 warrants for two counts of murder and 3 of attempted murder.

edit on 21-7-2011 by SFA437 because: (no reason given)

You saw someone get shot in the face?

reply to post by dadgad


Quite a few people, not just one; but I used the Kurd as an extreme example as a fist sized chunk of his cerebellum was laying on the ground behind him after he was shot. Also the 7.62x39mm M1943 round is a rifle cartridge a hell of a lot more potent than the .380 which is used for small pocket pistols.

The point is to this day he is up & about his daily life, albeit with a limp and a speech impediment. He also remained conscious throughout the ordeal until he was brought to Camp Cuervo for surgery. Still keep in contact with him on YIM- he owns a souk in Irbil and does quite well

reply to post by FrankieNinja


My appologies to you as well man since my information was not completely correct either.

No worries man and no need to appologize. I understand incidents like this trigger differing points of view based on personal experiences and what not. My position comes from doing law enforcement, and contray to belief by some on this site, I dont always come down on the side of the Police. However having the background I tend to view these situations through training and experience.

The event is tragic and its always a bad day when some loses their life. Even more so when the person is troubled to begin with and takes the mindset their is no way out but to run.

Thank you for debating with me. I enjoy it as I always learn something new, whether it be a law update I was unaware of to seeing the opposite point of view. We all have a tendancy, based on situation and background, to fall into the trap of being unable to see the trees while standing in the middle of the forest, and I am no different.

As I said no appology is needed, although it shows class on your part, so thank you. I look forward to seeing you in the next thread, whatever it may be.

@ SFA437
Yeah that is a red flag. Also, and it might be chalked up to confusion, misreporting, crossed wired what have you, but the number of shots picked up by the system dont account for all the shots. The article says the kid shot at the police, and the police returned 9 rounds for 10 total. If thats the case, then how could the kid shoot at the police and shoot himself in the head?

That would mean 11 shots, not 10.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I know I saw it mentioned somewhere that the ShotSpotter picked up 2 shots that were not attributable to the officer's weapons and round counts. Should have linked it because I don't remember the search terms I used and I have tried for about an hour to duplicate it.

That was definitely a Bryco (or other permutation of that cast zinc piece of crap) in the first video. Even said it was most likely a .22 or .25- turned out to be a .380 (same frame size). When they said a .45 case was recovered I thought I was gonna have to eat some crow although a Colt Officer's or FireStar is about the same size (grip angle is all wrong though compared to the video).

I'm really having an issue wrapping my brain around this right now- mainly how the hell the weapon wound up 20 feet away. Popping yourself in the dome while at a dead run doesn't make much sense and if he was stationary or slowed down what got the pistol to it's final resting place? Even if he did check out at a dead run the most common place for the muzzle to be is at the temple in a suicide followed by under the chin. The first would have moved the pistol laterally a short distance while the latter would have dropped it downwards and it would have been near his feet assuming he collapsed immediately.

I was going off the premise his arm was in an upswing while running when he took the round that put him down, fingers go numb, pistol flies off forward and comes to a rest out in front of him. The weapons position just does not make a lot of sense right now and for the life of me I can't explain it.

Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by BeyondPerception
I think you're forgetting that I'm not just pulling numbers out of my ass. My numbers are fact. They are rough estimates, but fact.

So you are saying you either know someone on SFPD or conducted your own canvass of the neighborhood to come up the 2% versus 98% ratio?

Now you see my frustration where I am shown claims that include no citations.

(Not calling you, nor anyone out in particular, just speaking in general terms. It's happened a lot in this discussion, so it wouldn't be difficult in finding such examples.)

Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by BeyondPerception
Thank you for clarifying to me, and every one else, just how pathetically slanted your viewpoint is. Cheers!

And thank you for clarifying how slanted yours is. If there is a house of skinheads in the neighborhood and a black guy gets beat up by guys in boots & braces and called a ni**er you don't go looking for another brother.

Past history is indicative of future behavior.

We're pretty far off from Minority Report-like forecasts, otherwise, may as well lock me up.

(I'm a human being. I'm likely to do something stupid at some point)

There are limits as to how far our confidence can lead us in judging human behavior.

Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by BeyondPerception
My point was that it's not everyday behavior, not an impossibility.

You stated you were unaware that people do not check in with POs prior to fleeing or committing crimes. Now you are aware that they do. Most people when they state they are not aware of something either wish to be educated on the subject or are just blowing smoke up someone else's ass.

Don't take everything I say so straight-forward, as I often ask questions, ask/state things that don't need clarification. E.g. Ya, like our president would tell us one thing, and then another.

Truth is, I did misread the article stating he 'checked in hours before shooting'. I understood it as the CA shooting, not the Seattle shooting. I make mistakes too.

Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by BeyondPerception
What is this, Assumption Inception? Making an assumption, based on another assumption. Go on.

Not really an assumption but a life lesson. I know if I put a ball through my neighbors window my parents would hear about it and I would beat feet- not that it did me any good as I had to come home at some point

If I were to murder one person and shoot three others who were familiar with me I would make myself scarce. If I was stopped by the cops afterwards I'd run my skinny ass off.

Well, in reference to your response about fleeing suspects showing up to their POs, I think the example you showed justifies just how stupid and unpredictable people can be.

While it's a logical and reasonable argument, it doesn't account for everyone.

Hard criminals, such as much of the upper class, often have mental health issues, and some really just have no idea just how bad their actions have reflected onto others. Some see wrong as right.

Also consider that people sometimes commit crimes while under the influence, in which they simply would never recall making such actions unless someone told them so.

Originally posted by SFA437
I am assuming the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. Does this mean that the prior history of the sun rising in the east has no bearing on future performance or is taking into account the behavior of the solar system for it's entire observable existence lead one to make the assumption with relative certainty of outcome?

Attempting to compare forecasts of galactic behavior with human behavior is stretching it just a bit.

Maybe my tiredness is leading me to be a little confused here.

Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by BeyondPerception
All you had to say was 'He also knew he was in violation of his parole'.. Why must you continue rambling with sensationalism?

Because you attempted to downplay his viciousness and evil that he spread everywhere he went. Also it is not sensationalism- it is fact.

So facts cannot be played out as sensationalism?

Why aren't you describing him as such, any time you refer to him? I mean, reality is, he's was an evil son of a bitch, so we ought to be clear on who we're talking about anytime he's brought up.

And I wasn't downplaying it, I was stating facts, as facts. I saw no need for including the extra nouns and adjectives.

Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by BeyondPerception
And my question was, how do we know he was wanted for questioning, in that particular case, since there was no proof of contact reported anywhere.

Once again- If I were to murder one person and shoot three others who were familiar with me I would make myself scarce.

Well, now that the media is stating they are no longer looking for suspects, no sense in me carrying this on.

My point was that people can be profiled or mistaken, when sought after in an investigation. He could have possibly only been seen as an accessory, or less, to the crimes committed. It does happen. But now we see he was likely the only player involved, and likely guilty, since no other suspects are being sought.

Originally posted by SFA437
I've let guys go who had coc aine on them, guys who were part of a burglary ring operating in my town and numerous others- right on the side of the road- if they agreed to cooperate.

When there is a mutual understanding that you have dirt on someone, you have the bargaining chip.

It isn't likely you'd roll up to someone's house and say 'Give us the stolen TV, and we'll let you go' without first having some probable cause. And even if you did have probable cause, there'd likely be some defiance, which would force you to pull out some dirt in order to gain a reasonable position for negotiating cooperation.

Media reports have police claim they went to a house and seized a weapon using only the video as evidence in which they claim to have made concluded probable cause to do so. Judging by contents of the video in question, this tells us they did not have enough information to seek out a specific person, nor enough evidence to realistically attain a search warrant in such a short period of time, nor enough dirt on someone to convince them to hand a gun over.

Originally posted by BeyondPerception
No idea what you're on about here. You have completely taken my statement out of context.

You asked "Where are the guy's prints on the weapon". How is replying to a direct inquiry taking something out of context?

I then answered your question in detail and explained why they are problematic to lift from a weapon's exterior and better sources for locating and lifting a 10 point or better print. I also explained why it takes time to check and verify them.

My response was to this statement:

Originally posted by SFA437
Then again I believe even if someone had video of the rapist shooting at the cops you'd say the whole thing was staged by the police and the guy shooting wasn't really the suspect

It was a mistake that you took it out of context. Copy/paste error. No biggie.

Originally posted by SFA437
Been enjoying the debate BTW. Seriously- I mean it, Keeps my brain exercised

Same here. No hard feelings. We both seem to enjoy getting the last word in, as well as a few jabs, which has allowed us to pick our arguments apart to the point of nearly splitting atoms.

reply to post by BeyondPerception


Which is why I love this site so much. Good mix of people who will dissect things down to the angstrom and usually come up with truth in the end.

I did a lot of work in photo analysis early on in the HUGE Japanese nuke crisis thread (did overhead and field intel analysis for the DoD for 6 years in Iraq) and between various contributors (both pro and con) turns out we were months ahead of the official press release.

This whole .380 self inflicted shot to the head just tossed a monkey wrench into the whole thing for both sides though. Thinking so hard about that one that my brain hurts because there is no way if he shot himself for the weapon to wind up where it did in the video.

Originally posted by BeyondPerception
Media reports have police claim they went to a house and seized a weapon using only the video as evidence in which they claim to have made concluded probable cause to do so. Judging by contents of the video in question, this tells us they did not have enough information to seek out a specific person, nor enough evidence to realistically attain a search warrant in such a short period of time, nor enough dirt on someone to convince them to hand a gun over.

IIRC correctly the individual they recovered the firearm from was also on parole.

Parolees and probationers are subject to warrantless searches at any time by any sworn officer. Even a Fire Marshal or SPCA officer can demand to search a person on P/P, his car, his house, demand urine... it's because they are essentially "in prison/jail" without being in the actual building itself if that makes sense.

Their freedom of movement is restored however most of the rest of the rules apply. I got probation for underage possession and consumption of alcohol after getting busted with 3 beers left out of a 12 pack when I was 15. I had a curfew of 8PM for a year (effed up my social life like a mo-fo). Whatever terms are set the parolee/probationer has to accept or they go back inside the Graybar Hotel.

I'd say that's how they got access to his home for the search.

Originally posted by SFA437
This whole .380 self inflicted shot to the head just tossed a monkey wrench into the whole thing for both sides though. Thinking so hard about that one that my brain hurts because there is no way if he shot himself for the weapon to wind up where it did in the video.

Right. It's a good distance away. (I'd love if someone could get an exact measurement from the scene - I suppose I could figure it out by further dissecting the video)

Where he had been shot has been bugging me for a while, as well as exact cause of death, since he died later in the hospital (if I remember correctly) but I keep forgetting to throw that in. I was under the impression, based on his movement, and arm movement, he was shot in the back-to-stomach region. The fact that he moves his head around is a bit interesting also. If I was shot in the head, I don't think I'd want to move at all. Can't even imagine what would be going through your head then, besides the the bullet.

With all of the close-up video and pictures taken, something eventually has to show up allowing us a clearer image of his head showing the point of bleeding. That will help a lot.

Another day, another story. Fun, fun, fun.

reply to post by SFA437


Derp. Not sure how I missed that one. Good point. And yes, IIRC also, it was a parolee they claim to have seized the weapon from. That could explain how quickly they were able to do so. But police confirm (in article below) it wasn't the one used, so the mystery firearm is still at bay.

What gets me still, is how this person was identified, since they still use the YouTube video with striped-hoody guy as evidence of him removing the gun, and that's far from the truth (unless some other vantage point is shown, that I've yet to see - I think if it existed, if have been posted somewhere by now though)

Police were unable to find a firearm at the scene, but video taken by a bystander showed that a man in a striped, hooded sweatshirt removed a silver gun lying off to the side of where Harding lay face down, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.

Earlier this week, police said that a similar gun was located in the Bayview home of a parolee, but that police were still actively seeking the man in the hoodie. seattletimes.nwsource.com...

Interesting. How did they come to the conclusion of 2 separate suspects.

Funny that the article also questions whether or not he shot himself in the head on accident, or on purpose.

Gets more interesting by the minute.

reply to post by BeyondPerception


I'm gonna pull some stills of the original video and run them through a couple programs from Topaz and see if I can isolate any cranio-ocular damage. Even a 380 at contact range is going to deform the skull to a degree.

Got a feeling this one is gonna be harder to figure out than Fukushima was- especially since the video released & posted of the striped hoodie guy shows him taking a phone and not a pistol. That's why I kept maintaining there had to be an unreleased video in the police's hands showing a different individual snatching up the firearm.

Too wore out to bang my brain around- time for whiskey, nicotine and bed.

I'll see what I can do with the video stills tomorrow.

reply to post by SFA437


I guess its possible that when he popped himself the gun could have catapulted away from the body. Its gonna depend on if the kid was a fast runner or not though.

Its also possible that when the officers got to him, one of them might have kicked the gun away and applied to much force (adrenaline).

Its also possible it was closer and when the crowb formed it got knocked around by them. As far as the video goes it starts after it occured and nothing before.

The first option makes the most sense to me. It was reported that the kid did not die at the scene, but at the hospital. Ive seen people with head wounds remain alert and concious. Maybe the kid was coherent enough for a few seconds and chucked the gun.

Im still confused about the number of shots fired. I know the adrenaline dump from that type of situation can cause tunnel vision in addition to the time dialation effect (slow motion). An Officer I used to work with had a traffic stop go bad, which resulted in shots fired. When interviewed he said he fired 6 or 7 rounds. When his weapon was checked in, it showed he only shot 3 rounds.

I am going to take a guess and say once all the info comes out after the investigations, a lot of our questions will be answered on the hows and whys.

reply to post by BeyondPerception


Just to point one thing out in your response to SFA about parolees and showing up at thier house.

In the State of California, people who are let out on probation or parole can have a parole officer show up unannounced and search the house. No search warrant is required sinces its an extension of the sentence. To my knowledge, and I could be wrong here, regular officers (non parole officers) must have a warrant or have the parole officer with them.

Also, its entirely possible the police did show up without a warrant and searched the house. If the parolee lives with someone who is the owner, the owenr can grant consent to search. If the parolee has his own bedroom and keeps the door closed / locked, a search warrant will most likely be needed.

If the parolee never secures the door, never closes it, and allows people in the house to come and go as they please, then an argument can be made for a search without the wrrant if the homeowner agrees.

This type of search will vary some from state to state, and will also rely on Domestic violence laws (they refine when a person is considered to have established residency in the house).

food for thought.

Well now with all the facts
I think the guy wanted a suicide by cop...

He was going away for the rest of his life,
that is a HARD thing to face......

Ran as long as possible, and got caught because his dumb ass
wanted to save 2 bucks.....

Dude was a moron.

For those who have used Presstv as a source in the past I give you this -

US police shoot black boy dead

Two police cops shot Kenneth Harding, a 19-year-old black boy from Seattle, five times and killed him while conducting a Muni bus fare inspection in the Bayview, San Francisco, a video footage of the incident on INFOWARS website shows.

The teenager death has sparked outrage among the local people, who point the finger of blame at police officers, stressing that the victim was an unarmed civilian.

Harding had allegedly refused to pay bus fare and tried to flee from the cops. The footage shows the scene of a black boy lying on the street and bleeding, while the police officers refuse to let anyone near him for help.

Statistics published by the Stolen Lives Project estimate that the number of cases in the United States relating to police brutality has reached thousands.

Most of the American people who suffer abuse from the police do not report the case. Those who do file complaints find that police departments tend to be self-protective and that the public tends to side with the police.

In 2010, there were at least 2,541 reports of misconduct by the US police.

Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by berkeleygal

SFPD Says Man Killed In Bayview Shot Himself

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS SF) – A man who was thought to have died from an officer-involved shooting in San Francisco last weekend appears instead to have been killed by a self-inflicted gunshot wound, investigators revealed Thursday.

sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com...

Video in article.

I saw this earlier on the local news. Seems the bullet taken from the fatal wound to his head does not match police bullets.

Seems my earlier assertion that the firearm was a POS of Bryco/Jennings/Raven manufacture was correct. The one I saw in the video was WAY too small to be a .45. The junk gun also fits in with the subjects history as they're referred to as 7-11 Specials for a reason

Now the question is raised where did the .45 shell casing come from?

A prior incident perhaps?
The options are endless.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Wow- Cali is a LOT more restrictive than NC. In NC it's any sworn officer who can search person/property at will. Usually it's a PO doing it of course but the loophole exists.

reply to post by HappilyEverAfter


Given the neighborhood I'd say it's a strong possibility based on what some people who lived there have said in this thread. Just surprised if there was someone shooting IVO that spot earlier that it would have been left behind and not collected prior.