The Problem of Evil. Why do bad returns come to those who invest in good?

God gave you the territory (Universe). The map is what you see. God sees the entire territory and created it with His law. It operates by the law of returns. When you choose to take from the universe, it takes back in multiples. If you give to the universe, it gives back in multiples. If you love God and/or others, He loves you in multiples because this is the law of the universe. If you take from God or others, you get taken over and over again. Take a look at a homeless man begging for money on the road. Does he smoke? Without exception. Does he drink and do drugs. Likely. Did he take from life without giving enough to get a return? YES. God has already done His part in this respect by providing the law of reaping and sowing.

Why do bad returns come to good people? We can question this according to the law of returns, but this requires duplicity on our part.

Duplicity says that I am good so I can get a reward. It says that I am good so that I can avoid punishment. God is not in the business to feed our pride. Duplicity is present where there is pride. If we want to attach ourselves to good, we do it as its own reward. God does the same. God is not prideful or duplicitous. He does what is good for its own sake. His only desire is for our good. This requires His providence. We can assume that His providence is correct. If we assume otherwise, we are being duplicitous. God can be tested in this each day.

All outcomes are for our ultimate good.

In light of this, read this passage carefully. What are your true returns? If you are not a child of God, what are your ultimate returns going to be?

Romans 8

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I'd say Romans 8 is the high-ground of the NT, but you've mentioned a great verse from there.

Good thread.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["God gave you the territory (Universe)."]

An assumption based on faith (I have no objections to faith, as long as it doesn't pretend to be something more).

Quote: ["The map is what you see."]

It's uncertain, which 'map' you refer to. There are many competing maps.

Quote: ["God sees the entire territory and created it with His law."]

As did Brahma and some other creator-'gods'.

Quote: ["It operates by the law of returns. When you choose to take from the universe, it takes back in multiples. If you give to the universe, it gives back in multiples."]

The objective model simply states, that every part of the universe interacts. Abstract 'giving' and 'taking' as you describe it are just speculations.

Quote: ["If you love God and/or others, He loves you in multiples because this is the law of the universe."]

A faith-based assumption.

Quote: ["Take a look at a homeless man begging for money on the road. Does he smoke? Without exception"]

Really..... Without exception?

Quote: ["Does he drink and do drugs. Likely."]

You seem to be quite the specialist.

Quote: ["Did he take from life without giving enough to get a return? YES. God has already done His part in this respect by providing the law of reaping and sowing."]

Good old calvinist fascism.

Quote: ["Duplicity says that I am good so I can get a reward. It says that I am good so that I can avoid punishment. God is not in the business to feed our pride. Duplicity is present where there is pride. If we want to attach ourselves to good, we do it as its own reward. God does the same. God is not prideful or duplicitous. He does what is good for its own sake. His only desire is for our good. This requires His providence. We can assume that His providence is correct. If we assume otherwise, we are being duplicitous. God can be tested in this each day."]

It all rests on faith-based assumptions, of " 'god' is good, because he's 'god', so he must be good". It's called a circle-argument.

Quote: ["All outcomes are for our ultimate good."]

A postulate, based on the assumption of a 'good god'. But as Jahveh (whom I suppose you refer to) in reality is evil, then your postulate falls.

Quote: [" If you are not a child of God, what are your ultimate returns going to be?"]

If I'm not a child of 'god' your assumptions fall.

Quote: ["Romans 8......"]

Arguments taken from the bible is circle-argumentation, and as the bible is wrong the arguments also are wrong.

PS I am for the duration using your own 'gnostic' (absolute) way of posting. Should you ever come around to evidencing your claims, I can go back to real communication.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
If you are not a child of God, what are your ultimate returns going to be?

I'm not sure how you came up with the law of returns of the universe and all that, but anyways I'm not worried about my returns. As far as I can tell, it doesn't exist and if it does I don't care. I'm going to live my one life and enjoy it as much as I can with my family and loved ones. Is that so wrong?

I called it this based on the law of returns in mathematics. It fits my notion of suffering. I contend that suffering takes a direction to reward and reward takes a direction toward suffering.

Example:

If you smoke, this leads to cancer. Smoking is a reward that we take by spending our health and resources on a reward that leads to suffering. Any other example will result in the same. Reward leads to suffering.

If you suffer work, you get a paycheck. This is an example of suffering that leads to reward. This reward never ends until the suffering ends. You can sped this reward on, say, a car. Now, instead of taking your bike to work, you can now drive. This then gives you the reward of more time at home to surf ATS. It is a constant giving of reward.

Most people run to reward. This is the worst choice that can be made. Christ suffered every step for us. His reward is our salvation. This is free to us if we love Him and others. This is costly to Him. If you look at God this way, you see His goodness demonstrated to us by His grace. Grace is unmerited favor to us. We do not deserve it. He only asks that we love Him and others. You cannot love others without loving God. He is also part of the others.

He doesn't ask you to love Him based on His desire alone. He must earn your love by being that love. You must demonstrate this by seeing Him with your heart and not your bias.

The Bible is a mirror. You can see man and God in the image if you look. If you are looking from an impure love, you will only see yourself in the reflection. This is the flaming sword that protects the tree of life.

Hate cannot dispel hate. Only love can dispel hate. This is the law.

If you want to see this said in a book other than the Bible, which predates Christ by 500 years, read it here.

Dhammapada (Buddha) The Ox is you. The cart is your burden in life. The wheel turns as you live.

1. Choices

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
If you are not a child of God, what are your ultimate returns going to be?

I'm not sure how you came up with the law of returns of the universe and all that, but anyways I'm not worried about my returns. As far as I can tell, it doesn't exist and if it does I don't care. I'm going to live my one life and enjoy it as much as I can with my family and loved ones. Is that so wrong?

There are obvious exceptions to the plight of the homeless. All of them need our assistance. Feeding, clothing or sheltering someone is temporary. Various reasons surround each of their unique situations, no doubt. I have personally never seen anyone who is homeless without a smoke. Maybe that is just me noticing. I have helped many homeless in the last few months and all of them are aware of why they are there. This doesn't change our attitudes toward helping them, obviously, but the only way to help is to cure the disease. Anything else is a temporary solution.

We are here on earth in a temporary situation, apart form our true home in heaven. We are each no different than the homeless man on the street. This tent I call my body is not my home. The earth is only a womb. It is comfortable, as the womb of the mother, but nothing compared to what we find when we can truly see the light on the other side.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote:

["God gave you the territory (Universe)."]

An assumption based on faith (I have no objections to faith, as long as it doesn't pretend to be something more).

Quote: ["The map is what you see."]

It's uncertain, which 'map' you refer to. There are many competing maps.

Quote: ["God sees the entire territory and created it with His law."]

As did Brahma and some other creator-'gods'.

Quote: ["It operates by the law of returns. When you choose to take from the universe, it takes back in multiples. If you give to the universe, it gives back in multiples."]

The objective model simply states, that every part of the universe interacts. Abstract 'giving' and 'taking' as you describe it are just speculations.

Quote: ["If you love God and/or others, He loves you in multiples because this is the law of the universe."]

A faith-based assumption.

Quote: ["Take a look at a homeless man begging for money on the road. Does he smoke? Without exception"]

Really..... Without exception?

Quote: ["Does he drink and do drugs. Likely."]

You seem to be quite the specialist.

Quote: ["Did he take from life without giving enough to get a return? YES. God has already done His part in this respect by providing the law of reaping and sowing."]

Good old calvinist fascism.

Quote: ["Duplicity says that I am good so I can get a reward. It says that I am good so that I can avoid punishment. God is not in the business to feed our pride. Duplicity is present where there is pride. If we want to attach ourselves to good, we do it as its own reward. God does the same. God is not prideful or duplicitous. He does what is good for its own sake. His only desire is for our good. This requires His providence. We can assume that His providence is correct. If we assume otherwise, we are being duplicitous. God can be tested in this each day."]

It all rests on faith-based assumptions, of " 'god' is good, because he's 'god', so he must be good". It's called a circle-argument.

Quote: ["All outcomes are for our ultimate good."]

A postulate, based on the assumption of a 'good god'. But as Jahveh (whom I suppose you refer to) in reality is evil, then your postulate falls.

Quote: [" If you are not a child of God, what are your ultimate returns going to be?"]

If I'm not a child of 'god' your assumptions fall.

Quote: ["Romans 8......"]

Arguments taken from the bible is circle-argumentation, and as the bible is wrong the arguments also are wrong.

PS I am for the duration using your own 'gnostic' (absolute) way of posting. Should you ever come around to evidencing your claims, I can go back to real communication.

the following is my opinion of the basic question, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

Because the universe is bigger than you.

In all things, there must be balance, but its the grand scheme thats important and not the individual. If a good thing happens, a bad thing must happen, and the beneficiary (or victim) is not really noted.

Putting forth your best effort, or giving charity to someone needy is a good thing. There must be a balance for that. So you, or your neighbor, or your cat... might suffer for the good that you've done. Just like if good things come to you, could be that it was balance from someone who did a drive-by last weekend.

Make sense? No? ok... more simply

Karma is like cupid - he's got really messed up aim.

I agree. Nothing can separate us form God. It's like music. Try to escape it and it is there again.

Romans 8

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I'd say Romans 8 is the high-ground of the NT, but you've mentioned a great verse from there.

Good thread.

How can you back this up with examples or references from a written source?

If I were to look at another source, other than the Bible, this is what I find on the subject. Since you are using an Eastern flavor, I'll use a cut from Discourse 11, Rumi the Sufi.

Someone sits wakeful through the dark night, thinking of
some way to find the day. Though they do not
know how to get there, still, in waiting for daylight,
the day approaches. Another person is travelling
by caravan upon a dark night in a storming
rain. They do not know where they have gone,
which way they are passing, or what distance they
have covered, but when day comes they see the
results of that travelling and go on from there.
Whoever labors for the glory of God, though both
their eyes are sealed, their labor is not lost. Even an
atom’s weight of good is not lost. Though all
within is dark and veiled, and they do not see how
far they have progressed, still in the end they will
know. “This world is the seedplot of the world to
come.” Whatever they sow here, they will reap in
the next world.

Originally posted by Forevever
the following is my opinion of the basic question, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

Because the universe is bigger than you.

In all things, there must be balance, but its the grand scheme thats important and not the individual. If a good thing happens, a bad thing must happen, and the beneficiary (or victim) is not really noted.

Putting forth your best effort, or giving charity to someone needy is a good thing. There must be a balance for that. So you, or your neighbor, or your cat... might suffer for the good that you've done. Just like if good things come to you, could be that it was balance from someone who did a drive-by last weekend.

Make sense? No? ok... more simply

Karma is like cupid - he's got really messed up aim.

I don't need to back it up

Originally posted by Forevever
the following is my opinion of the basic question, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

All things in balance.
All things in moderation.
Humans are insignificant to the big picture.
We think, therefore we think we're superior, but we're not.

Sure thing. I was just curious if you were deriving from a source other than your years of experience in life. That's not a jab, I was really thinking there may be a theology behind your thoughts.

Originally posted by Forevever
I don't need to back it up

Originally posted by Forevever
the following is my opinion of the basic question, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

All things in balance.
All things in moderation.
Humans are insignificant to the big picture.
We think, therefore we think we're superior, but we're not.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Glad it was not a jab I did mostly think you were just asking

For the most part I try to take the common sense route - the things I say, I usually believe are self evident. I imagine if I did source it, someone would disagree or attempt to discredit the source. And thats fine. But I rather be the source, and take responsibility for what I say.

I'm easily discredited, I make mistakes, but I think most people can relate to this idea. In fact, I think EVERYONE at some point or another has been forced to suffer unjustly. The only logical explanation for it, is that the world is trying to balance itself. Its all part of a bigger plan. Be it God, or Nature, or any other label we give it. The label isn't whats important. The balance is. ♥

I had a similar mindset when I was younger. I didn't want to listen to the old cranky men around me and all their free advise to me. In particular, my first employer and my father-in-law. I viewed my father like this as well. He would sit in a lawn chair, sipping a tea, as I raked leaves and weeded the garden. As I worked, He gave me pointers on how to have a good work ethic.

It was aggravating then. I now look back and see how their advise and prodding made me who I am today. I would give anything to tell my father what He meant to my later life. I took him for granted when I was being taken care of in his home. It was quite another thing, in later years, to realize his wisdom was allowing me to show the same love for my kids.

Too many people here stand against something instead of standing up for something. There is a huge difference. Ancient wisdom survives throughout history if it can stand on its own with no help at all. If the author never wrote his own words down, we can be sure they were held up by countless others to our ears. Trust in wisdom can be defined. If it stands up for virtue and the welfare of others, it is truth.

Here is a list of my favorites who only spoke and never wrote.

God (except the 10 commandments on tablets and our hearts)
Jesus (in the sand with a stick)
Buddha
Rumi
Confucius
Socrates
Yoda

Originally posted by Forevever
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Glad it was not a jab

I did mostly think you were just asking

For the most part I try to take the common sense route - the things I say, I usually believe are self evident. I imagine if I did source it, someone would disagree or attempt to discredit the source. And thats fine. But I rather be the source, and take responsibility for what I say.

I'm easily discredited, I make mistakes, but I think most people can relate to this idea. In fact, I think EVERYONE at some point or another has been forced to suffer unjustly. The only logical explanation for it, is that the world is trying to balance itself. Its all part of a bigger plan. Be it God, or Nature, or any other label we give it. The label isn't whats important. The balance is. ♥

edit on 5-7-2011 by Forevever because: typo's are evil

reply to post by SuperiorEd

very interesting
you imply that your mindset regarding my karma theory has changed
you got me curious

why has it changed, and what did it change to?

I agree with everything you've said in your post ♥

Originally posted by SuperiorEd


Example:

If you smoke, this leads to cancer. Smoking is a reward that we take by spending our health and resources on a reward that leads to suffering. Any other example will result in the same. Reward leads to suffering.

Weird, my grandpa smoked for 60 years and never got cancer.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Christ suffered every step for us.

For an idiotic rule that he made up himself, which makes no sense.

reply to post by Hydroman

I have to second that motion - lots of smokers in my family
My grandfather smoked cigarettes and cigars, died at the ripe old age of 92. No major health issues whatsoever, just mildly senile. (Kept calling me by my moms name)

ETA: if my theory is right, maybe thats why I'm suffering so much
paying for his "evil"....

Originally posted by Forevever

ETA: if my theory is right, maybe thats why I'm suffering so much

paying for his "evil"....

Which would be ridiculous. According to the bible, we ALL have to pay because of what two humans did in a garden. Oh wait, Jesus paid the price to himself so that makes it all better.

You may have mistook me. I am implying that the Karma belongs to the one it sticks to. The ancient philosophers and mystics were remembered for a reason. Like I remember my father for what he was really saying all those years. I was actually implying that I once took your perspective when I was young. Now that I am older, the wisdom of experience drives me to value the ancient wisdom more, like I value my father more.

I guess I was trying to get you to see that you are relying our your own wisdom alone when there are wisdom traditions that have been tested for their value leading to virtue. Virtue, after all, is the point of developing a heart of flesh instead of stone. Pride is the issue for all of us to overcome. Similar to how I softened my heart toward the mavens of truth in my own youth.

Originally posted by Forevever
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

very interesting
you imply that your mindset regarding my karma theory has changed
you got me curious

why has it changed, and what did it change to?

I agree with everything you've said in your post ♥

edit on 5-7-2011 by Forevever because: reason goes here

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I've been thinking hard on how to explain my answer to you without challenging your religious beliefs. I think the best way to put it is that perhaps your god shows his love for you by presenting you with struggles and pain in order to help you grow in specific areas you are lacking in the implicit world (heaven?).

And furthermore, maybe you observing "evil" people get the best things in life is a way to pound home another lesson. Perhaps for you, it's:

Do good because you love and not because of some hope of Karma.

reply to post by Hydroman
Well.... that requires faith - I generally don't "believe" in the Bible
I tried to answer the question based on "good" and "evil" - the Bible doesn't have a copywrite on good and evil.

To me, it just doesn't make sense that "good" people are visited by "evil" unless you implement my theory.

If you have another though, not religion based, I'm all over it.


reply to post by SuperiorEd
Maybe I am mistaking you. You assume I didn't listen to those who were more wise than I?

We'll have to agree to disagree... are we disagreeing?

I find myself agreeing with Cuervo ...

Originally posted by Cuervo
I've been thinking hard on how to explain my answer to you without challenging your religious beliefs. I think the best way to put it is that perhaps your god shows his love for you by presenting you with struggles and pain in order to help you grow in specific areas you are lacking in the implicit world (heaven?).

And furthermore, maybe you observing "evil" people get the best things in life is a way to pound home another lesson. Perhaps for you, it's:

Do good because you love and not because of some hope of Karma.

We struggle in order to learn.
I'll continue to do good out of love, no matter how much backlash I get.

As for "evil" being rewarded? I would only ponder if the reward made them evil.. and not the other way around.