Originally posted by Lightrule
Please take the following not as disrespect but as an observation. Firstly Xcath thanks for being civil and giving us your honesty.

I have always been honest and I try to be civil in discussions like this. Any numbe rof mebers can vouch that I am not defending all officers 24/7. I have come down on officers for their actions when its warranted. At other times I have opted to remain neutral until more information comes out, as we know the media doesnt always get the story right, nor do they ever have the whole story from the start.

Originally posted by Lightrule
Allow me to explain my postings. I'm not posting as a lawyer, I post as a guy who has some legal knowledge. The reason being is because if I wrote posts like it was my job I WOULD end up sounding EXACTLY like you, because I DO understand EVERY argument you make to defend the police actions in the video. I really do, but because I can see the injustice in many of the "laws" governments have passed over the years I no longer wish to stay silent about legal vs lawful.

And thats fine.. However, not making the argument using legal terms can lead others who are not familiar with how the law or system works to wrong conclusion.A perfect example of this is how people continually invoke the 4th amendment, with absolutely no clue it does not apply to the individual, but the Government. Many have made the comment about private property, including you, and others have invoked the 4th, incorrectly.

I would say if people new what they were talking about, we would be having a lot less arguments that revolve arround the law and more about the substance of the action itself. I think we would have a lot less disagreements because people would know what they are arguing, instead of seeing what we have now, where mul;tiple people keep beating the same drum of -

- Show me this law or where it says that etc. Its been posted and explained. People refuse to read and acknowledge it because quite frankly they dont understand it. Because they dont understand it, and because its coming from a cop, they automaticall assume im lieing or misleading them. All it takes it 15 minutes of research, yet they fali to do that. I wonder why?

Originally posted by Lightrule
Now for the part that might sound disrespectful. You are not taught as a police officer to study law and all of its intricacies, you are trained to enforce the law based on how it is written as you understand it. I'm sure we can both agree that the justice system has seen its fair share of abuse in its time and I'm sure you can also agree that some of these "laws" we have simply don't make sense.

And you would be wrong. We undergo constant law updates because of local state, appeals, federral appeals and supreme court rulings. We also are issued opinon sby the AG's office as well as the PA's office on how they think a law should be enforced as opposed to how the law itself is written.

We go through Stat law classes as well as Con law classes in the academy, and those 2 sections take up wuite a bit of time. We also go through court room procedures, training in evidence collection, inaddition to laws and case law that has shaped the manner in whcih we collect evidence, interview suspects, intrerview minors, etc etc etc.

To assume that as police we dont recdive that type of training is rather naieve, and it is also incorrect.

What you and others fail to see is yes, as an officer I can interpret a law and make an arrest. Whether or not that interpretation is allowed is up to the PA, and if they go forward with it, its then up to the courts, who get to interprete my interpretation. Thats how it works., and you know this.

People posting dont, but would if they did some research into how the shystem itself works. Instead they would rather yell at the police for doing something they can do.

Originally posted by Lightrule
The thing I'm sick and tired of hearing is your (as in police in general) age old excuse of "I'm just doing my job." or "I'm just following the law." I was always taught that policemen were our friends and that they defend our safety. What I see now is police officers that LOVE the POWER of their job and constantly wish for more rules to enforce.

At no point have I ever said im doing my job, nor have I ever used that as an excuse, so kindly quote me to back up your accusation, or admit I never said that and appologize. What I am sick of is people like you and others who constantly see only what they want to see, while ignoring anything they dont know, donyt understand, or dont like because it doesnt support their argument or in some cases crusades against the police.

As far as your comment about police officer who love power, I could see how you and others can come to that conclusion when you dont understand the system or how it works. You claim you do, but your ocmments dont support that statement. Your statement is a blanket staement and is as naive as when other people say it and think all cops act that way.

As far as wanting more laws to enforce - You are absolutely crazy and have no clue what the hell your talkig about if you think thats even remotely true.

Originally posted by Lightrule
Your livelihood has been highjacked by the rich, powerful, corporate masters at the top of the pile. Yet we never see police officers stand up and scream "That statue is unlawful we will not enforce it!" they always bow their heads and obey. Well guess what? People were raised the same as me, believing you were there to protect us, but now we really are seeing the ugly truth, police are addicted to their power, always want more and are working against us rather than for us.

Ah yes, the ever present conpisracy theory of distrust all. Here is an idea, why dont you and the others who think the system sucks actually do something about it other than bitch? thats all I see people do and when I ask why they dont take a proactive approach to ixing something, I get the lazy ass excuse of my vote doesnt count, the system is rigged so nothing vcan be done blah blah blah.

If people spent as much time taking part in government than they do posting I hate the cops threads, thins would change.

The problem is I think some people just couldnt live with the knowledge of having the ability to make changes, because all they know how to do is bitch, and nothing more. There mental wiring couldnt handle it and would fritz out.

Originally posted by Lightrule
You need to give your head a good long shake, are citizens supposed to cower before the paranoid policemen?

Absolutely not, nor at the same time are citizens supposed to interfere with our duties when it does involved them in the first place. Give your head a good long shake and ask at what poiint her rights are allowed to interfere and override the rights of the driver who was detained and the 2 people in the car?

Her rights ended the moment they interfered with the others. As a lawyer, you know this, yet you stay away from it.

Originally posted by Lightrule
Here is exactly what *I* think went through that arresting officers head:

"Oh yeah look at this car, parked to far from the curb, time for justice!
I wonder if he has a gun, probably, this is the united states everyone has a gun, better unsnap my holster.
Look at this little punk, I bet he has something in the car I can arrest him for...
That's right you little punk just disobey once and you'll get my boot so fast...
OH CRAP! is that a CAMERA!? CRAP CRAP CRAP IT IS! Now what? I can't just beat this little punk for no reason now...
Aww shucks and I had my batoning arm all ready to go... How can I get rid of this camera? Oh I know!

LADY GO BACK INTO YOUR HOUSE! "There problem solved, she better follow my order too or else I'm gonna baton her as well."
"Damn! She isn't leaving and now I look like a pussie that can't even order a little girl around."

We all know what happened next. It was sad.

-Lightrule

and thats your opinon and thats fine. Apparently its not what was going through the offiecrs mind, and beng a lawyer you know this as well. I beleive it would be at this point an objection would be made because counsel is testifying as the what the officer though, is offering facts not in evidence, and is prejudicing the jury by making innaporprite comments about the clients state of mind at the time.

I guess its easier for you to make your argument that way than actually extend the benefiet of the doubt that the officer acted in a anner he felt was right. Afterall, he is innocent until proven guilty as well.

Xcathdra remains defiant against the tide of public opinion. Everyone else is wrong. He's right. No one else understands. Only him. He 'serves' the public - supposedly - but clearly has no respect for them or their views. They're all wrong. He's right. And he wonders why more and more people are beginning to dislike cops?

He reminds me of King Cnut, who sat defiantly facing the sea, commanding the incoming tide to turn. That's a British historical reference which may not go over with everyone. So, I'll simplify it in a way that might.

Xcathdra is a Cnut.



Now where is that ignore button.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

I have always been honest and I try to be civil in discussions like this. Any numbe rof mebers can vouch that I am not defending all officers 24/7. I have come down on officers for their actions when its warranted. At other times I have opted to remain neutral until more information comes out, as we know the media doesnt always get the story right, nor do they ever have the whole story from the start.

I know you have... So again, thanks.

And thats fine.. However, not making the argument using legal terms can lead others who are not familiar with how the law or system works to wrong conclusion.A perfect example of this is how people continually invoke the 4th amendment, with absolutely no clue it does not apply to the individual, but the Government. Many have made the comment about private property, including you, and others have invoked the 4th, incorrectly.

I made the comment about private property because this is one of the topics in law that has been hijacked. Nothing you have said is wrong. What is wrong is that you have been lead to believe what you believe is right. I think I can reasonably say 99% of the people that like to bash bad cops here on ATS (or online) wouldn't have any problem with an officer chasing a criminal through their private property.

I would say if people new what they were talking about, we would be having a lot less arguments that revolve arround the law and more about the substance of the action itself. I think we would have a lot less disagreements because people would know what they are arguing, instead of seeing what we have now, where mul;tiple people keep beating the same drum of -- Show me this law or where it says that etc. Its been posted and explained. People refuse to read and acknowledge it because quite frankly they dont understand it. Because they dont understand it, and because its coming from a cop, they automaticall assume im lieing or misleading them. All it takes it 15 minutes of research, yet they fali to do that. I wonder why?

For someone like you that has all the material and knows where to look for it, yeah it takes fifteen minutes. But in all other cases it takes years. I REALLY dumb it down because members here don't have a law degree, and they shouldn't have too.

I'll level with you here and now.

I work from the inside out to crash the corrupt legal system we have now. I hate it and I hate the players at the top of it. I've seen and heard (and VERY SADLY participated) in more corruption than you have seen on the mean streets. You are defending a sick, corrupt and dying system. Your calls for us to vote or change the system using the system (ie, courts) ring hollow in our ears because the exact same things you are telling us to use have been corrupted. Nobody wants to fight the system with the system because it is IMPOSSIBLE. Take it from the guy on the inside looking out. Many people now just want the system to leave them the hell alone as long as they are not hurting anybody.

And you would be wrong. We undergo constant law updates because of local state, appeals, federral appeals and supreme court rulings. We also are issued opinon sby the AG's office as well as the PA's office on how they think a law should be enforced as opposed to how the law itself is written.

We go through Stat law classes as well as Con law classes in the academy, and those 2 sections take up wuite a bit of time. We also go through court room procedures, training in evidence collection, inaddition to laws and case law that has shaped the manner in whcih we collect evidence, interview suspects, intrerview minors, etc etc etc.

To assume that as police we dont recdive that type of training is rather naieve, and it is also incorrect.

Well good for you, actually. Lots of police dept. don't have the time or resources to offer this to their officers, they get the academy training then they are on the streets. The academy training I'm sorry to say hardly covers the necessary requirements needed to apply to law school let alone the allowance of street level law interpretation.

What you and others fail to see is yes, as an officer I can interpret a law and make an arrest. Whether or not that interpretation is allowed is up to the PA, and if they go forward with it, its then up to the courts, who get to interprete my interpretation. Thats how it works., and you know this.

As per above I honestly don't believe you (again speaking as police as a group) have enough knowledge or training to be allowed to interpret the laws on the spot, from my point of view it is officers taking so many matters into their own hands and messing up the interpretations that cause the courts and DA's to get backed up for such long periods of time. Trying to sort thought the mess. Yes, I know this is how it works, but it shouldn't.

At no point have I ever said im doing my job, nor have I ever used that as an excuse, so kindly quote me to back up your accusation, or admit I never said that and appologize. What I am sick of is people like you and others who constantly see only what they want to see, while ignoring anything they dont know, donyt understand, or dont like because it doesnt support their argument or in some cases crusades against the police.

It could be argued that police do the same thing to justify arrests...

As far as your comment about police officer who love power, I could see how you and others can come to that conclusion when you dont understand the system or how it works. You claim you do, but your ocmments dont support that statement. Your statement is a blanket staement and is as naive as when other people say it and think all cops act that way.

Actually my comments come from the observation of a system I understand REALLY well. One that I am disgusted with.

As far as wanting more laws to enforce - You are absolutely crazy and have no clue what the hell your talkig about if you think thats even remotely true.

Man... what the? I see "my" police chief on TV all the time calling for a new law, supporting a new law, calling for tougher penalties on existing laws or demanding more power to stop nsert group to be targeted here> by creating more laws they can use to capture said group. Nine out of ten times that law will be used against regular citizens "if the need arises". I don't want to say wake up cause it is way to over used on these boards so... OOGIE BOOGIE BOO GET OUT OF BED!!!

Ah yes, the ever present conpisracy theory of distrust all. Here is an idea, why dont you and the others who think the system sucks actually do something about it other than bitch? thats all I see people do and when I ask why they dont take a proactive approach to ixing something, I get the lazy ass excuse of my vote doesnt count, the system is rigged so nothing vcan be done blah blah blah.

Read above about my comment about working from the inside. Its not a conspiracy nor a theory at this point. I try everyday to correct the wrongs in the system, sadly I'm stonewalled by the higher ups 999 times out of 1000. I can tell you with 100% certainty (again read my comment about corruption) that a lot of judges are BOUGHT AND PAID FOR. 100% buddy... 100%. Oh I've filed some paperwork in my day let me tell you, against some pretty high profile people with witnesses, paper trails, ADMISSIONS! That get shredded to never be heard of again because Judge Corruption plays golf with Mr. Mayor.

I know full well how the system works and it don't work for the citizens. So I don't respect any argument that tells us to use the system to fight the system. Its bought and paid for and we aren't holding the receipt.

If people spent as much time taking part in government than they do posting I hate the cops threads, thins would change.

HAHAHAHA! So true! So true!

The problem is I think some people just couldnt live with the knowledge of having the ability to make changes, because all they know how to do is bitch, and nothing more. There mental wiring couldnt handle it and would fritz out.

See above comment.

Absolutely not, nor at the same time are citizens supposed to interfere with our duties when it does involved them in the first place. Give your head a good long shake and ask at what poiint her rights are allowed to interfere and override the rights of the driver who was detained and the 2 people in the car?

Her rights ended the moment they interfered with the others. As a lawyer, you know this, yet you stay away from it.

Yeah sure, but I think the bigger question of why the cop was paying any mind to her at all is what should be answered. A camera isn't dangerous and neither is a female standing on a lawn holding one. It worries me that a police officer can claim he felt endangered when in reality there was no danger.

If this officer was just a little bit smarter he would have told that women to get back into her house as she herself may be in danger. Maybe then she may have listened. But with little manners or tact he just started barking orders at her. Sorry bud, but no matter how many orders you guys bark we're not dogs and won't just grant you respect when we see NONE in return.

and thats your opinon and thats fine. Apparently its not what was going through the offiecrs mind, and beng a lawyer you know this as well.

No I don't know this, because based on what I saw the officer was acting like a bully, therefor it would not be far off to suggest he has a bully mindset.

I beleive it would be at this point an objection would be made because counsel is testifying as the what the officer though, is offering facts not in evidence, and is prejudicing the jury by making innaporprite comments about the clients state of mind at the time.

Again, sure I would have been handed my ass if I ever said something like that in a court room, good thing we aren't in one. Still, on ATS I'm allowed to speculate based on observation.

I guess its easier for you to make your argument that way than actually extend the benefiet of the doubt that the officer acted in a anner he felt was right. Afterall, he is innocent until proven guilty as well.

I never said that the officer was wrong, nor did I say he didn't think he was acting in an appropriate manner. I simply stated that even if he thought he was acting in a matter that was justified, doesn't make the action itself justified.

-Lightrule

Originally posted by Malcram
Xcathdra remains defiant against the tide of public opinion.

That right, because public opinion has always been an indicator of rightfulness and non mob mentality based on ignorance at times.

Originally posted by Malcram
Everyone else is wrong. He's right. No one else understands. Only him.

I have posted the laws, you guys refuse to read them. I ahve explained the laws, you guys refuse to acknowledge thats how the law works. You guys make your claims about violating this right or that right, without understanding the fact that is not what she was arrested for.

So in your case and a few other sin these threads - yes, you have no clue as to what your talking about, and yes, I do. Sorry it comes to this, but from the outstart you have not understood one thing ive posted. Instead, whn that occurs, you resort topersonal attacks, such as this one, to shift the focus away from your ignorance, instead falling back on attack the police because they are all corrupt.

You have had ample time to prove me wrong, and you have not. You have had the time to post any laws that support your argument, and you have not posted any. Instead you fall back to your opinion, which is not law.

That uis not a hard concept for most to understand, but you take the cake in this area.

Originally posted by Malcram
He 'serves' the public - supposedly - but clearly has no respect for them or their views. They're all wrong. He's right. And he wonders why more and more people are beginning to dislike cops?

And when the views of the public is to take the accused child molester out front and shoot him, should I allow it? Regardless of how perverse you think a crime is, or how pervcerse you think the person comitting the crime is, its not up to you the public or me the officer to decide if that person is guilty or not. Its up toa court of law presided over by a judge and the defendent given the right to be be judged by a jury of his or her peers.

So you are damn right that I could give a rats ass about what the public opinion is on someting when that opinion has nothing to do with a court of law. And oh by the way, you should have that exact same viewpoint if you actually new how your system of justice worked.

Instead, your so damn blind beause of your hatred towards the police, that you yourself are willing to violate the law and a perosns right in order to correct a perceived injustice in the system.

Dont look now, but your no better than the cops you accuse of being crooked are.

Originally posted by Malcram
He reminds me of King Cnut, who sat defiantly facing the sea, commanding the incoming tide to turn. That's a British historical reference which may not go over with everyone. So, I'll simplify it in a way that might.

No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we ask him to obey it. Obedience to the law is demanded as a right; not asked as a favor.
Theodore Roosevelt

Comparing me to Cnut is intresting when you take into account his history an what he was able to do not only for his Danish realm, but the British realm as well. Or are you just quoting something without knowing the entire history behind the person?

Originally posted by Malcram
Xcathdra is a Cnut.

which doesnt change the fact you are still ignorant on how the law works and how the system works. But hey, feel free to try and dig up some more quotes to divert peoples attention from your lack of knowledge. You shold probably just stick to goiing after law enforcement though, using high knowldge in your posts will confuse them as much as it does you.

Originally posted by Malcram



Now where is that ignore button.

edit on 1-7-2011 by Malcram because: (no reason given)

Its gone, much to a lot of peoples irritation, including myself. However, ignoring a person because you dont wish to learn is not ignoring the problem, its actually furthering the problem by beleiving in your own ignorance while ignoring the truth, as well as refusing to learn it.