Secret Vatican Library...How can Catholics put up with this?

I understan that the word secret in the library means that it is the Pope's personal library. The church has been accumulating books, documents and such for hundreds of years. Hundreds of scholars, writers, historians go through the library every year. You have to have a reason and the expertise to get acces. Also there's a waiting period for the documents to be made public. Add to that that many of the docs are really old or one of a kind and need to be protected. Not very secretive if u ask me. "Secret in this context just means it's the Pope's. Just like at one time there was a "secret" fork, knife, sword, clothes etc, it just means its the pope's.

Originally posted by lifecitizen
This will probably get me in trouble, and Im not sure how to embed on this site but this is so worth a look for comic relief

I know how to embed, and since you made my day...

NSFW BTW

What if everything people think is secret isn't???

Not Catholic...don't hold any particular feelings towards the "religion"...do believe that it was just another attempt to CONTROL the public in the time frame in which it was created. The Catholic Religion is a continuation of the Roman Empire and it's militaristic take over of the world...living on, much the same as the Nazi beliefs have into the 21st century.

For the world, in general, to be privy to the so called "secrets" the Vatican State holds, we would first have to assume that human kind is/has advanced past many of it's short comings....take a look around...do y'all think they have??? Seriously?

When one can see they will know...until then..."secrets" will always be entertained...

Cheers! Gentledissadent- Sarah Silverman is such good value, one of the best comedians around at the moment, gorgeous to look at too!

Didnt the Vatican move the library to Colorado? is it re opened yet does anyone know?

reply to post by lifecitizen


I heard they were moving it... but didn't hear where to. Must be moving it through the Stargate in Cheyenne Mountain to a secret off-world location.

Well, you know, they're probably just protecting us. I mean, all that stuff is probably on paper or some animasl skin or something. God only knows if it's arranged in a dewey decimal system.

But really, if I remember correctly. . .I would bet that the most sacred of secrets being kept there is that no one really needs to go "down" to the archives to discover what's so secret.

But what would I know. . .I'm just a pagan.

Originally posted by KJV1611
I do know inside the secret library are millions of written accounts of various Christian martyrs and how they were tortured, skinned alive, raped, and forced to kill each others family members or suffer their own children to be fed to dogs.

Millions of account are recorded by the sick people who carried out these horrible atrocities so they could read over them later while drinking and having orgies in their marble palaces, which was also recorded.

Wow, that's quite an allegation. Do you happen to have any proof, links, documentation or proof of any sort?

Thanks!

Eric

Originally posted by shushu
reply to post by lifecitizen

 

I heard they were moving it... but didn't hear where to. Must be moving it through the Stargate in Cheyenne Mountain to a secret off-world location.

edit on 25-6-2011 by shushu because: (no reason given)

[like Danny Devito in Twins when he meets Arnie]
oh, obviously

I heard Denver Colorado because of the elevation for when the disaster hits. The disaster that tptb know about but aren't telling us about as a way to cull numbers

The catholic church can't reveal whats in the secret library, as that's where they keep all the records of their secret war on the vampires. Imagine the hysteria that would cause! O-O ( Hehehe! jk! )

reply to post by doctornamtab


Those Books belong to US, the world to read, learn, they should let us read them, make e-books, post them or even sell the e-books for a small fee, remember the chruch ran the faith for 8 hundred yrs, only the well to do, could own and read books,

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by schuyler

 

Actually, you are in the same boat with everyone else, and you don't "know" either. Unless of course, you've been able to peruse it for months, in which case I apologize.

There is enough there, and it is kept under wraps enough, to support the suggestion of a library with secretive material.

Wait a sec here. The OP made an unsubstantiated claim and provided no proof other than "we all KNOW." The onus is upon him to provide proof, not on me to refute it. It's like John Lear claiming the Moon has a breathable atmosphere. It's up to him to prove it, not to anyone else to disprove it. Try turning in a paper using your logic and see what kind of grade you get.

As I stated in my second post on the subject, even if there is "secret" material, that doesn't give you carte blanc to go wild with speculation on what it might be. You're building a house of cards based on zero evidence. Look at the evidence we already have with the Gospel of Thomas. There are a few die hards who don't accept it, but by and large the theological community does, so what does it say?

That Jesus was romantically involved with Mary Magdalene and that she had a prime, if not the prime, position in his entourage. Take that to its logical conclusion and you have a Dan Brown bombshell, yet it has caused barely a ripple. I can't think of anything more dramatic than that, frankly, but of there is corroborative evidence in additional potential 'gospels' it would take centuries to authenticate them. Anyone can write anything down. Lok at the Shroud of Turin. C-14 dates it to 1300 ish, but it is still shrouded in controversy.

You think there's something even more controversial in this "secret" Vatican library? Speculate away, but in terms of anything the least bit substantive, you ain't got nothin'!

As I stated in my second post on the subject, even if there is "secret" material, that doesn't give you carte blanc to go wild with speculation on what it might be. You're building a house of cards based on zero evidence.

I did all that with my little post? Going wild? Damn, I'm good. lol.

I absolutely believe there are vast secrets, hidden artifacts, and shocking ancient documents within the libraries of the Vatican. I don't understand why you are getting your knickers in a knot over this. It is speculation that there is; it is speculation there isn't.

I would love to go find out.....but for some reason or other, I don't think I'd be permitted to see everything I'd like to see, or go where I'd like to go.

reply to post by EricD


Proof?!?! There are thousands of these accounts man, I'm dead serious, THOUSANDS.

Read any edition of Foxes book of martyrs.
Look up or download Avro Manhattan's books,
or The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the best expose' available for the catholic religion, but VERY hard to read as this guy was smarter than Einstein),
or 50 Years in the Church of Rome Charles Chiniquy,
or The Secret History of the Jesuits by Edmond Paris,
or The Priest, the Woman, and the Confessional by Charles Chiniquy again.
Some internet articles: Hundreds of articles
Anti-christ slide-show (Warning, graphic)

Many more, but this will keep you busy for at least 5 years or more.

Ps.... you may, cry, get sad, become angry, and start hating catholic PTB if you read these first hand accounts.

Originally posted by KJV1611

Read any edition of Foxes book of martyrs.
Look up or download Avro Manhattan's books,
or The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the best expose' available for the catholic religion, but VERY hard to read as this guy was smarter than Einstein),
or 50 Years in the Church of Rome Charles Chiniquy,
or The Secret History of the Jesuits by Edmond Paris,
or The Priest, the Woman, and the Confessional by Charles Chiniquy again.

Oddly, I'm glad that you've read these books. Most anti-Catholics have firm beliefs on the Catholic Church without doing any research at all.

I'm hoping that you won't take offense when I ask that you take a look at some commentary from the other side of the fence.

I've done some research into every author and book that you've mentioned. Of them all, only Manhattan has any legitimate claims on being a serious academic. Let's briefly go through the rest.

Foxe - John Foxe was primarily a Protestant polemicist,not a historian. As a matter of fact, he was a member of the ministry. Although his work recording contemporaneous and near contemporaneous accounts was less flawed than his work based on the older accounts, even this was seriously flawed. Most modern religious historians consider his work to be hagiography as opposed to history.

It is telling that Foxe didn't include the deaths of Catholics as martyrdom. He didn't record the killings of Catholics by Protestants and reformers, but he DID actively oppose the torture of Jesuits which shows that the Book of Martyrs was pr more than an accurate recording of history.

It becomes easier to understand Foxes historicity when keeping in mind that he wrote about and firmly believed in Jewish blood libel and how Jews killed Christian children for their blood and that Joseph of Ariamethia founded the Christian church in England.

Hislop - Alexander Hislop was a minister, not an archaeologist and his work shows that. Unfortunately for Hislop, his research was conducted over 150 years ago when the science of archaeology lacked sophistication and today's tools. Hislop's work was incredibly detailed and horribly flawed. Even other anti-Catholics academics dismiss The Two Babylons, not only for it's methodology (and logical flaws) but also for being just plain wrong. You can read descriptions in The Two Babylons of various figures from mythology and then compare them to what we know them to be today and they are so dissimilar that it's astounding.

Ralph Woodrow was responsible for a revival of Hislop's popularity with his book Babylon Mystery Religion. He later came to the realization that Hislop's work was highly flawed (in numerous ways) and wrote a book refuting The Two Babylons. And Woodrow was and is strongly anti-Catholic.

Chiniquy - I would say that Charles Chiniquy was a joke if he weren't so heavily leaned on for his anti-Catholic agitprop. If you actually look, you will find reams of information on the internet about Chiniquy and his lies. One of the most damning is his side by side claims about the Catholic Church. On the one side are claims that are the polar opposite of the claims made on the other side. Unfortunately, Chiniquy was the author of both sides. His claims about the Church only came out after he was excommunicated and while he was trying to build up a following as a Protestant minister during a time of vicious bigotry against Catholics in the US.

Chiniquy was a liar (as demonstrated by historians who have studied Lincolns life), an opportunist (who used anti-Catholicism to gain fame and popularity only after excommunication from the Catholic Church, which he vigorously fought against) and contradicted himself throughout his autobiography.

In the 1850's, just as today, being a professional anti-Catholic could make you popular and wealthy, the truth be damned.

Paris - The biggest problem that I have right off the bat is that this book is published by Jack Chick with a forward by Alberto Rivera. That alone would entice me to ignore it. The previous publisher was a Free Mason lodge in Paris. It's been a while since I took a look at it, but I remember it being highly annotated but without primary sources. It's also a bit of a rough read, being translated poorly from French to English. I'll go back and take a look again and try to be more thorough. I'll post again in a day or so. But seriously, a forward by Alberto Rivera????


Eric

this fact surprises me not 1 bit. the church members have an obligation to give the church 10% of their income (now i'm not catholic, or christian, but is that net or gross income? are you supposed to add in your benefits as well?) to prove you love god, a supernatural, non corporeal being who has NO NEED OF MONEY. i do understand that this money is supposed to got toword helping the poor, but have you SEEN the inside of the Vatican? GOLD EVERYWHERE! they are the richest corporation on the face of the planet and do not think it is wrong to hoard wealth of that magnitude because it is all part of their "history."
now lets assume that you live in 1 of those poor nations that are predominately catholic, 10% is a hefty chunk of your income. that money gets to the local church, their bishops, take control of it and send a chunk back to the crooks in charge back in Vatican city. hence all the gold leaf, paintings, statuary, and rare books that NO ONE outside of a VERY select few people will ever see. they are in effect stealing from the poor to rape children, and push their own political agendas and the like. anyone wanna help the Nazis? the Vatican bank sure did. as well as the current pope who as far as i a concerned should be arrested for helping those genocidal maniacs during world war two. now i do realize that you were most likely using sarcasm here brother, but i had to post this response to make the Catholics realize that they are all being stolen from in the name of a false and controlling church. i for 1 will never understand how anyone can let some one else tell them what to believe. this sheep like way of thinking goes against everything i believe... but i guess that is why the priesthood is always refered to as Shepherds.

You are referring to the church of Jesus Christ and the latter day Saints, not the Catholic Church.

Originally posted by Silcone Synapse
reply to post by something wicked

 

That's the Vatican archives,not the secret stuff.
That stuff is deep in the catacombs,in vaults.
Where no one knows about it.

It may well be all the treasures of documents they have plundered over the centuries,too priceless to burn,but too opposed to their faith to release to the masses.

I bet they have a few cracking documents concerning ancient alien "gods" and the like stashed away down there,along with some highly controversial nazi/paperclip papers.

I wonder if they know what happened to Kammler and the nazi bell?

So you are speculating that there is information that is hidden? Well, that's fine, it's ATS after all, but a claim like that really needs some meat on its bones or it's just speculation.

Originally posted by lifecitizen

Why does he look like a leering villian? I'm assuming you think you are an oil painting? The guy looks how he looks, look in the mirror some day, you may find you aren't as perfect as you would like to be before you judge the looks of others. Sheesh, is this what this site has become?

SomethingWicked

You totally missed it, went straight over didnt it?

Like I said it wasnt my wisdom, it was Dawkins wisdom- one of the worlds top evolutiuonary scientists and advocate against religion in general (pretty sure you must know him but just in case you missed that too)

Neither of us are saying anything about the Popes looks- its taking the piss out of the ( ridiculous) frocks he wears, and he's described as a leering villian because he is head of a church that condones pedophilia and he personally has covered up for other priests in the past before he was the Pope.

Actually, you referred to him as a leering villian. The thread is about a so called secret library within the Vatican. If yo want to talk about Dawkins (and he's an opiniated, glory seeking person and that's the first time I've heard of him described as a top evolutionary scientist), then that's a different subject.

As for the ceromonial garb, so what? It's ceromonial costume. Please point to where the Catholic Church - or in fact any Church - condones child sex abuse.

reply to post by something wicked


Don't forget the condoning of the behaviour of extreme right-wing governments in South America, the aiding of Nazi war criminals to evade capture following World War II. These are the people who gave Eichmann a passport!

The problem with the Catholic Church is that it is led by men, and men and beset with foibles, faults, and sins. As a result it's a political organisation run as such. Religion plays such a small part of the total activities of the Church.

Anyone within the Church who rises to high office and tries to move back to a more religious outlook quickly finds themselves dying in bed of a heart attack.

Then there are the masonic links to the Church, Roberto Calvi anyone? Strings himself up under Waterloo Bridge, even though he's too short to have managed? I don't think so...

Originally posted by Rob37n
reply to post by something wicked

 

Don't forget the condoning of the behaviour of extreme right-wing governments in South America, the aiding of Nazi war criminals to evade capture following World War II. These are the people who gave Eichmann a passport!

The problem with the Catholic Church is that it is led by men, and men and beset with foibles, faults, and sins. As a result it's a political organisation run as such. Religion plays such a small part of the total activities of the Church.

Anyone within the Church who rises to high office and tries to move back to a more religious outlook quickly finds themselves dying in bed of a heart attack.

Then there are the masonic links to the Church, Roberto Calvi anyone? Strings himself up under Waterloo Bridge, even though he's too short to have managed? I don't think so...

Good points considering this is ATS. I'm not sure they condone extreme right wing governments in South America as much as possibly work with them in an effort to ensure aid is given to those who need it - that's my assumption though, you may have more specific examples.

For the piece around suddenly finding themselves having a heart attack, For all the millions that adored him, John Paul II was certainly very conservative around religious practice and he seemed to last a fair old while.

As for Eichmann, there are as many theories about this as you want to find. For example, out of curiousity I've just put in Eichmann and Vatican as keywords in Google. One of the first results talks about Eichmann's diary saying on hearing of the proposed 'final solution' he made contact with a member of the Catholic Church which then worked to shield as many Jews as possible. Depends which perspective you take I guess, although it does appear it was the red cross which issued him with a passport.

As for Roberto Calvi, I think it's safe to say that if it was murder, there are several suspects for that, his reputation as 'Gods banker' isn't all there is to know about him.

But I absolutely agree, any religion as like any other organisation, staffed by people. We all have good, bad and indifferent aspects to us and to think a religious organisation would by default be different would be naive.

Anyhow, interesting points, and they would probably deserve a thread of their own (if they haven't already got one), but back to the secret library.......

reply to post by something wicked


Do you think the secret library might have more to say on these subjects as well as the older history of the Church?

I am not sure about Eichmann trying to save anyone from anything, he worked strictly to the "Befehl ist Befehl" regime, and stuck by that at his trial even after the event and the evidence had been put to him in sworn testimony, paper evidence, pictures, and film. All of which is too horrific to contemplate for most people, yet for him he was just following his orders. Eichmann was a brutal Nazi who contributed more to the holocaust than almost anyone else, and he got his just reward when they executed him.