Theists and Atheists: A Conspiracy Against Each Other

Too many times in forums (not just ATS) I see Theists and Atheists attacking each other. It can get really ugly as each group bashes the other while they try to shove their beliefs down each other's throats. I don't know that it is organized or not, but it just seems like there is a nasty war going on between extremists of the two "factions".

Why people attack each other for their spiritual beliefs has always been beyond my scope of understanding. If someone is a Theist what in your religeon teaches you to attack and ridicule people who don't share your belief system? And if someone is an Atheist why do you attack and ridicule people for not disbelieving as you do?

I wonder sometimes if this "war of beliefs" is something that may be propogated by TPTB. It could be a smart move on their part. How can people put their political differences aside and come together to fight against political injustice if they can't "live and let live" and just agree to disagree when it comes to spiritual beliefs? How much time is wasted bashing and calling each other names and getting downright hateful instead of looking at what our political leaders are doing to ALL OF US even now?

This war of spiritual beliefs is popping up everywhere, especially on the web. Look at the comments sections at the end of a news article. Chances are good that at least a few people are going off topic and having a war of words about their beliefs, or lack thereof. Recently I was reading an article concerning Comet Elenin (which I am not sure what my opinion is on that subject) and it turned into a war of Theists vs. Atheists. I commented that I found the article interesting, but it was a shame that it had turned into belief bashing. A reply called me a "bible basher". I found it humorous, for I am a Christian.

So do you think TPTB and the MSM could be behind some of this ugliness that is spreading like the plague? I'd be interested to know what others think.

reply to post by littled16


This argument is no different than any other argument created for distraction... black vs. white, rich vs. poor, haves vs. have nots, etc...

I think that it is safe to say that 99.9% of Atheists reside on the left side of the political spectrum, whereas 99.9% of religious zealots reside on the right side. In other words, the belief or lack of belief in God aren't the only issue the two sides disagree on. When two groups of people are so vastly different in every aspect it is easy to see why they are at each other's throats as often as they are.

Common ground can be found in the middle. By middle, I am talking about rational minded people, not political ideology. As far as political ideology is concerned, I am about as far to the right as one can get, but that has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

An Atheist that loves freedom and liberty should have no problem with religion, and a religious person that loves freedom and liberty should have no problem with an Atheist. It is in this mindset where rational and respectful discourse in regards to Atheism Vs. Theism resides.

This argument has been raging since the first guy in the world ever mentioned a God. There's no need for it to be fueled by anybody as it will naturally happen among people.

Originally posted by littled16
So do you think TPTB and the MSM could be behind some of this ugliness that is spreading like the plague? I'd be interested to know what others think.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/390873c7fdbe.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/73c7ef6be340.jpg[/atsimg]
We don't need some unknown TPTB to identify who is shooting at atheists...they put up giant billboards.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/379087de1981.jpg[/atsimg]


However, some in the media do love to help with the shooting...

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
An Atheist that loves freedom and liberty should have no problem with religion, and a religious person that loves freedom and liberty should have no problem with an Atheist. It is in this mindset where rational and respectful discourse in regards to Atheism Vs. Theism resides.

Hear! Hear! This is the crux of the matter. The reason these two groups have such a problem is that individuals within the groups want the freedoms they want, but don't necessarily want to extend those freedoms for people with whom they disagree.

It's not just atheists and theists, it's right and left, gay and straight, women and men, Catholic and Protestant, Democrat and Republican, Old and young, black and white... I believe they are ALL distractions used to divide the people.

I am an atheist and I FULLY support the First Amendment and freedom of religion. It's easy to do. It's freedom. I REALLY don't understand why people buy into the divisiveness so apparently being pushed on us in our society today. It seems to me that not very long ago, people actually believed in freedom. But lately, it seems most people only want the freedoms with which they agree. It's antithetical to what freedom is. "Freedom for some" is not freedom at all.

Originally posted by littled16
"live and let live" and just agree to disagree when it comes to spiritual beliefs? .

Because people who have those spiritual beliefs interfere with politics and the law.

There are at least nine anti-evolution bills pending in the states right now. The Gov. of Texas, Rick Perry, is having a "prayer event" (With the A.F.A. - a hate group) in August in order to implore Jesus to fix the problems in Texas. Rep. John Shimkus went on record to dismiss global warming as fraudulent because the bible indicates otherwise. Arizona Senator Sylvia Allen claims the earth is only 6,000 years old.

Every day of every year, the U.S. conservative movement (long ago hijacked by the religious wing), makes as their main gripes issues that were settled decades ago: abortion, school prayer, etc.

At the heart of all of this is their spiritual beliefs. And I'm not to be critical of the beliefs which lead to the kinds of nonsense I listed above? I can't "live and let live" when religious fanatics are in bed with government, and I have every right to be concerned with and criticize those who have an irrational enough mindset to believe in talking snakes - particularly when they have the police power of government at their disposal.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I absolutely agree with you. There must be a line drawn between the freedom to have a practice one's chosen religious beliefs and the freedom to use those beliefs to interfere with and change the secular government that the US has. I support the former 100%, but fight against the latter.

Unfortunately, far too many religious people think it is their right to strong-arm the government to bow to their whims. And the government is every bit as guilty (actually more so) for allowing it to happen.

The religious should be allowed to petition the government, but no laws should be made that favor ANY one religion or spiritual belief over another.

Freedom of Religion? YES!
Religion in Government? NO!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
There must be a line drawn between the freedom to have a practice one's chosen religious beliefs and the freedom to use those beliefs to interfere with and change the secular government that the US has.

Precisely. Freedom of religion is a paramount right in American government and even as an atheist I'll fight to preserve it. After all, it provides me the right to be an atheist without being executed for having that opinion.

I wish it were a simple matter of "live & let live" when it came to religion; a world in which that supremely naive "Coexist" bumper sticker was describing a plausible option. But we're still at a point where not only has religion infected government but also PTAs, places of employment, juries, homeowner's associations, etc. In 21st century America I could lose my job, my social standing, maybe even become the victim of violence... all these things can happen simply for being outed as an atheist. And I am expected to just live and let live?

While a "can't we all just get along" thread from a self-professed christian my have the superficial appearance of being a noble gesture, the fact is that it's a very easy thing to say when you're part of a strong majority. I do not become an unwilling participant in some conspiracy because I was to discuss or, god forbid, be critical of a belief system which affects my life whether I subscribe to it or not.

reply to post by littled16


Classic "us" versus "them" mentality. Too bad they tend to act annoying simular.

reply to post by littled16

Originally posted by littled16
Too many times in forums (not just ATS) I see Theists and Atheists attacking each other. It can get really ugly as each group bashes the other while they try to shove their beliefs down each other's throats. I don't know that it is organized or not, but it just seems like there is a nasty war going on between extremists of the two "factions".

...ok, when do we atheists bash theists? And how do I shove my lack of a belief in a deity down anyone's throat?

Now, on the atheist front, I can tell you that it isn't really organized. We don't coordinate on web forums and are possibly the least organized group with relation to religion in the country because we're not really a group at all.

Why people attack each other for their spiritual beliefs has always been beyond my scope of understanding.

...we don't attack people, we attack beliefs. Why? Because some beliefs are stupid. You have a right to your beliefs, I have a right to call them stupid.

If someone is a Theist what in your religeon teaches you to attack and ridicule people who don't share your belief system?

Well, quite a bit in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

And if someone is an Atheist why do you attack and ridicule people for not disbelieving as you do?

Please, show me these examples of atheists attacking and ridiculing people merely for not disbelieving. I disagree with the idea of doing so, but I've not really seen it on ATS and when I have it's been infrequent and not supported.

Now, other places I can't be so sure...but all of the above that I've said applies here, not elsewhere.

All I know is that anonymity + an audience = far less inhibition. Some people express themselves more freely in a good way, some express themselves more freely in a very abusive people. You get plenty of stupid, ignorant, aggressive, or otherwise unpleasant people in all groups, that's just unavoidable.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


I'm going to just disagree on that 'lovers of liberty' point.

I love liberty AND I have a problem with religion. Now, do I have a problem with people practicing their religion freely? Absolutely not. People should be free to practice their religions so long as they harm nobody else. The problem comes with religion itself and what it does to people. I find it harmful and I have multiple reasons to think so.

Do I think we should ban it? Hell no, that would be stupid.
What we should do is promote a non-faith position and just win the argument until we've won the people.

I also disagree with people being aggressive or abusive towards others in these discussions. I am known for being quite aggressive myself, but I always do my best to attack arguments rather than people. If I address a person, it's on the basis of their arguments.

Originally posted by littled16
Too many times in forums (not just ATS) I see Theists and Atheists attacking each other. It can get really ugly as each group bashes the other while they try to shove their beliefs down each other's throats. I don't know that it is organized or not, but it just seems like there is a nasty war going on between extremists of the two "factions".

Things are OK, except when one decides he/she is Going To Set Him/Her Straight About A Few Things.

You're a christian, I'm not. Don't try and convert me, and dont make any laws forcing me to live by your standards (IOW mind your own f'n business and leave me the hell alone), and I'll not come down on you like the proverbial ton of bricks PLUS I wont try and convert you. Hell, I wont try and convert you no matter what.
.
But discussion is fair. What's wrong with that.

As for a conspiracy, I don't see it. It's too big to be a conspiracy. It's just different worldviews. To me, it's religions that play right into the PTB's hands. They are the ones that benefit.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
...ok, when do we atheists bash theists? And how do I shove my lack of a belief in a deity down anyone's throat?

These are just some of my observations about this...

I think there are atheists who make fun of and 'bash' the religious. They do exist. So, while the vast majority of atheists are just living our lives not caring what anyone else thinks, the vocal minority are the ones making YouTube videos and being heard by the religious folks they're bashing.It only makes sense that some religious folks are going to form an opinion of atheists as arrogant and know-it-all.

And some folks think that by just mentioning 'atheism' in their presence, you're 'stuffing it down their throat', because they're so uncomfortable with it. They've not had to look at it or think about it much.

I know I feel similar about people trying to 'talk with me' about religion. Almost ANY form of perceived coercion or 'trying to get me to see it their way' will seem to me like they're trying to force it down my throat. But that's because I have heard enough religion in my life. I was saturated in it. I know all I need to know about religion and I really don't need or want anyone trying to convince me that their story is true and I should believe it, too. I am done with religion.

So I imagine it's similar for the religious. They have heard enough about atheism. They don't need to be approached about it or read about it or see the ads about it. And when they do, it feels like they're being assaulted by it, because they're not used to it. It feels sacrilegious to them and like an attack on their beliefs. Just reading the words seems like an attack to them.

Thing is, there are religious advertisements books, shows, TV stations, YouTube videos, and music 'out there' everywhere. Most atheists manage to somehow walk past them without freaking out. So, I think religious people will be able to manage. Atheists should be represented if they want to be represented. Just as women, men, Democrats, the local teamsters, or the Elk's club - people should be allowed to put their message in public.

Being assaulted by theist and atheist propaganda on the street is one thing, but if one enters into a discussion on ATS, specifically to discuss atheism or theism, then they really shouldn't complain that something is being forced down their throats or their beliefs are being attacked. They are in a forum that discusses such things.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


That's sort of what I was going to build up to...but you beat me to it with an always eloquent post.

I do have to say that even those on YouTube aren't mostly all that bad either. I mean, the ones I'm aware of who have a lot of subscribers and views are mostly quite fair and open and rarely insult all believers (though they will insult a specific believer if they feel they deserve it)...but that's on YouTube, a place where you get to choose whether or not to click a video.

In fact, you can always change the channel, tune to another station, look away, ignore, close a window, etc...and yet people are constantly accused of trying to shove something down someone else's throats, which is really only the case when coercion is concerned.

When you try to legislate it or otherwise force compliance with it, it's being shoved down our throats. A good example would be the Texas school board and their science standards as well as their history and other upcoming problems.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

That's sort of what I was going to build up to...

Oh, I'm sorry! I didn't mean to take the wind out of your sails... :sorries:

In fact, you can always change the channel, tune to another station, look away, ignore, close a window, etc...and yet people are constantly accused of trying to shove something down someone else's throats, which is really only the case when coercion is concerned.

I agree and I do just that. When religious people come knocking on our door, they are treated kindly and respectfully. There's really no need to hate each other.

When you try to legislate it or otherwise force compliance with it, it's being shoved down our throats. A good example would be the Texas school board and their science standards as well as their history and other upcoming problems.

Yes, I touched on this in my first post - the difference between religious freedom and religious politics.

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for giving their views on this post! So far everyone has been respectful and given their sincere thoughts without really being ugly to each other- it's kind of refreshing!

While I am a Christian I also believe in separation of church and state. I don't believe in cramming my beliefs down anybody's throat. I believe in freedom of religeon, but that also includes freedom from religeon if that is your choice.

We have people of all faiths, including a few Atheists in our family- one of whom is my oldest daughter. We agree to disagree on the subject of faith, and that is okay with us.

Once again, thanks for the replies- and keep them coming!

I look at it like this.



Some say it 's become a cesspool. There are those involved in this rumble who are determined to hammer out
there reason for thinking the way they do on both sides. There will always be both sides of this rumble. I don't see a reason to change anything about it.It's a matter of perspective. I believe it weeds out members from both sides that have tendency to break the rules of ATS. If they don't commit their sins here? Then they will be allowed to rome free and do it some where else. The chaff from the wheat.

Oh and next time the otherside wins. Round and round we go. Where and how we get off ?
Nobody knows.

Originally posted by littled16
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for giving their views on this post! So far everyone has been respectful and given their sincere thoughts without really being ugly to each other- it's kind of refreshing!

While I am a Christian I also believe in separation of church and state. I don't believe in cramming my beliefs down anybody's throat. I believe in freedom of religeon, but that also includes freedom from religeon if that is your choice.

We have people of all faiths, including a few Atheists in our family- one of whom is my oldest daughter. We agree to disagree on the subject of faith, and that is okay with us.

Once again, thanks for the replies- and keep them coming!

I just last week had my first thread ever, in any the forums that involve this great debate, that went 21 pages
without so much as one off topic post. I actually thought things were getting better. Stupid me.

That's why pantheism is the right belief system for me ;D