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RC-135V/W RIVET JOINT surveillance aircraft

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posted on Aug, 7 2004 @ 04:40 AM
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The Australian RAAF need as many of these planes as we can get are hands on we have very poor surveillance aircraft like this and what we do have is old and worn to say the least.I was emailed this and i thougth you might find it of intresting to say the least.


The USAF RC-135V/W RIVET JOINT surveillance aircraft are equipped with an extensive array of sophisticated intelligence gathering equipment enabling military specialists to monitor the electronic activity of adversaries. Also known as "RJ", the aircraft are sometimes called "hogs" due to the extended "hog nose" and "hog cheeks". RIVET JOINT has been widely used in the 1990's -- during Desert Storm, the occupation of Haiti, and most recently over Bosnia. Using automated and manual equipment, electronic and intelligence specialists can precisely locate, record and analyse much of what is being done in the electromagnetic spectrum.

The fleet of 14 RIVET JOINT aircraft increased to 15 in late 1999 with the addition of a converted C-135B. The jet's conversion cost about $90 million. The Rivet Joint fleet is currently undergoing significant airframe, navigational and powerplant upgrades which include re-engining from the TF-33 to the CFM-56 engines used on the KC-135R and upgrade of the flight deck instrumentation and navigational systems to the AMP standard. The AMP standard includes conversion from analog readouts to a digital glass cockpit configuration.

The Air Force plans to spend at least $1.4 billion to keep the RC-135 Rivet Joint (RJ) fleet flying through 2018. The service also plans to modify a recently retired Air National Guard KC-135 tanker, turning it into the Air Forces 17th RJ signals-intelligence aircraft.

Basic roles include:

providing indications about the location and intentions of enemyforces and warnings of threatening activity
broadcasting a variety of direct voice communications. Of highest priority are combat advisory broadcasts and imminent threat warnings that can be sent direct to aircraft in danger
operating both data and voice links to provide target info to US ground based air defenses
The RIVET JOINT aircraft are capable of conducting ELINT and COMINT intercept operations against targets at ranges of up to 240 kilometers [in contrast to the 280 kilometer intercept range of the higher-flying U-2].

The RIVET JOINT aircraft operated by the 55th Wing, Offutt Air Force Base, Neb., provide direct, near real-time reconnaissance information and electronic warfare support to theater commanders and combat forces. In support of the 55th, the 95th Reconnaissance Squadron operates out of Mildenhall and provides pilots and navigators to fly the aircraft. The 488th Intelligence Squadron provides the intelligence personnel who work in the back of the plane. Since the beginning of Operation Joint Endeavor December 21, 1995 through May 1996 the 95th and 488th flew 625 hours and 72 sorties together in support of the peacekeeping operation in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

RIVET JOINT (RC-135V/W) is an air refuelable theater asset with a nationally tasked priority. It collects, analyzes, reports, and exploits enemy BM/C4I. During most contingencies, it deploys to the theater of operations with the airborne elements of TACS (AWACS, ABCCC, Joint STARS, etc.) and is connected to the aircraft via datalinks and voice as required. The aircraft has secure UHF, VHF, HF, and SATCOM communications. Refined intelligence data can be transferred from Rivet Joint to AWACS through the Tactical Digital Information Link TADIL/A or into intelligence channels via satellite and the TACTICAL INFORMATION BROADCAST SERVICE (TIBS), which is a nearly real-time theater information broadcast.

Upgrades
There is little question that the most sophisticated and capable collection system today is the 85000 System onboard the RIVET JOINT aircraft. The House Intelligence Committee's concept would continue the incremental and continuous sensor improvement to the 85000 System with the goal of ``cross-decking'' it to the new aircraft in the then-current state of modification when the first aircraft is ready to accept it. This would require ``new'' equipment purchases for the first number of new aircraft that replace the EP-3, and the later number of aircraft would be outfitted with equipment directly transferred from the RC-135 aircraft as each is retired. The cost savings realized with this concept would be substantial over the alternative option to develop an entirely new SIGINT system.

The Tactical Common Data Link (TCDL) is developing a family of CDL-compatible, low-cost, light weight, digital data links for initial application to unmanned aerial vehicles. Normally the data returns with the collecting aircraft to be downloaded and processed at base. A long-standing need remains to provide the theater CINC and/or the National Command Authority (NCA) with the ELINT environment in real-time. In the future TCDL design is expected to be extended to additional manned and unmanned applications, including RIVET JOINT. The TCDL will operate in Ku band and will be interoperable with the existing CDL at the 200 Kbps forward link and 10.71 Mbps return link data rates and is expected to interface to the Tactical Control System (TCS).

On February 12, 1997 Sanders, a Lockheed Martin Company, was selected by the Joint Airborne Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) Program Office for development and demonstration of the Joint SIGINT Avionics Family (JSAF) Low Band Subsystem (LBSS). Major subcontractors include: Radix Technologies, Inc. of Mountain View, Calif.; Applied Signal Technologies (APSG) of Sunnyvale, Calif.; and TRW System Integration Group, also of Sunnyvale. Radix will provide radio frequency (RF) and digital signal processing subsystems; APSG will develop special signal processing subsystems; and TRW will be responsible for high speed networking and computing subsystems. The JSAF low band subsystem is a platform-independent, modular, reconfigurable suite of hardware and software that can address multiple mission scenarios aboard a variety of aircraft. It will significantly enhance the ability of reconnaissance platforms to detect and locate modern enemy communications systems and provide real time intelligence on enemy intentions and capabilities to the warfighter. Initially, JSAF LBSS will be deployed on U.S. Air Force RC-135 Rivet Joint aircraft and other special Air Force platforms as well as the U.S. Army's RC-7 (Airborne Reconnaissance Low) and the U.S. Navy's EP-3 aircraft. JSAF LBSS will also be capable of deployment on unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) in the future. JSAF collection systems intercept, exploit, and report on modern modulation and low probability of detection communications and radar signals. It permits the collection of signals in the presence of co-channel interfering signals, and provides interoperability between primary DOD airborne collection platforms, establishing the infrastructure to support near-real-time exchange of information for rapid signal geolocation and targeting. Provide compliance with DOD directed Joint Airborne SIGINT Architecture (JASA). Current aircraft architecture and collection system have insufficient capability to intercept modern modulation and low probability of detection communications and radar signals. System requires improvements to accurately measure signal polarization and angle of arrival to the required accuracy, and to process signals in the presence of co-channel interfering signals. DOD airborne collection platforms do not operate under a common architecture and are limited in their ability to exchange data among platforms for the purpose of rapid signal triangulation for geolocation and targeting. Four aircraft undergo PDM per year. Current funding in FY01/02 only supports JSAF modification for three of the four aircraft during those years. Result will be 2 different aircraft configurations moving thorugh PDM. The impact includes dual qualified aircrews, split logistics, increased training, increased cost for "out-of-cycle" modification.

The RIVET JOINT Joint Airborne SIGINT Architecture (JASA) High Band Sub-System (HBSS) Upgrade procures and installs upgrades to the RIVET JOINTs high band antennas, RF distribution network, and software to intercept, exploit, and report on modern modulation and low probability of detection communications and radar signals. It permits the collection of signals in the presence of co-channel interfering signals, and provides interoperability between primary DOD airborne collection platforms, establishing the infrastructure to support near-real-time exchange of information for rapid signal geolocation and targeting. Provide compliance with DOD directed Joint Airborne SIGINT Architecture (JASA). The JSAF CRD (CAF 002-88 Joint CAF -USA, USN, USMC CAPSTONE Requirements Document for JOINT SIGINT AVIONICS FAMILY) requires all airborne reconnaissance aircraft to migrate to JASA compliance by 2010. Current aircraft architecture and collection system have insufficient capability to intercept modern modulation and low probability of detection communications and radar signals. System requires improvements to accurately measure signal polarization and angle of arrival to the required accuracy, and to process signals in the presence of co-channel interfering signals. DOD airborne collection platforms do not operate under a common architecture and are limited in their ability to exchange data among platforms for the purpose of rapid signal triangulation for geolocation and targeting.

The RIVET JOINT SHF High Gain Steerable Beam Antenna Upgrade I will procure and install a new antenna array in the cheek to provide increased sensitivity and signal separation for selected frequency bands. It provides an increased number of steerable beams in bands that currently have steerable beams, and provides steerable beams in bands not currently steerable beam capable. Increases the number of signals that can be processed simultaneously and increases signal selectivity against co-channel signals. Increasing number of low power signals and increased signal density have decreased the ability to collect tasked targets due to co-channel signal interference. Antenna improvements permit deeper target penetration against low power emitters or increased standoff ranges. The current SHF antenna array does not provide the sensitivity or selectivity required to collect low power or co-channel signals, reducing probability of intercept.

RIVET JOINT SHF High Gain Steerable Beam Antenna Upgrade II procures and installs a new antenna array in the cheek to provide increased sensitivity and signal separation in selected frequency bands. Provides an increased number of steerable beams in bands that currently have steerable beams, and provides steerable beams in bands not currently steerable beam capable. Increases the number of signals that can be processed simultaneously and increases signal selectivity against co-channel signals. Increasing number of low power signals and increased signal density have decreased the ability to collect tasked targets. Antenna improvements permit deeper target penetration against low power emitters or increased standoff ranges. The current SHF antenna array does not provide the sensitivity or selectivity required to collect low power or co-channel signals, reducing probability of intercept.

The RIVET JOINT High Frequency (HF) Direction Finding (DF) System procures and installs a ten element HF array antenna on RIVET JOINT to provide HF DF capability. Upgrades the Joint SIGINT Avionics Family (JSAF) LowBand SubSystem (LBSS) receiver to process HF DF. The current RIVET JOINT HF capability is limited to a long wire antenna. This configuration supports signal reception, but not HF DF. The aircraft is tasked to perform search, classification, collection, and DF of all militarily significant signals. This tasking includes signals in the HF band. Without HF DF, the aircraft will continue to have no DF capability in this increasingly significant frequency band. A ten element HF antenna array, and receiver upgrades are needed to perform HF DF operations. Without the installation of a ten element HF antenna array, RIVET JOINT will not be able satisfy the requirement to DF signals in the HF band.

The RIVET JOINT 360 Search, Acquisition, and Direction Finding System procures and installs a circular antenna array and receiver system designed to search, acquire and DF emitters over the full. The antenna will be centerline mounted on the aircraft underside. The antenna output will be routed to a new receiver dedicated to 360 intercept. The receiver output would be routed to existing processors for exploitation. The proposed implimentation will retain the high sensitivity and geolocation accuracy of the current system while adding an additional antenna array and receiver specifically for 360 coverage. RIVET JOINT is currently unable to satisfy the long-standing requirement to search, acquire, and DF emitters through the full 360. The current radar acquisition and DF systems have a limited field of view, restricted to 120 on each side of the aircraft. Additionally, the operator can only select one side or the other. The aircraft is often employed in orbits requiring a greater antenna field of view, often from both sides of the aircraft, or from the nose and tail. The crew currently accomplishes this tasking by alternating antenna selection from side to side, and by changing aircraft headings. These tactics provide sequential, not simultaneous looks at the target area, and pose a significant probability of missing short-up-time and low-probability-of-intercept emitters.

RIVET JOINT Wideband Line-of-Sight Data Link procures, installs and integrates a wideband datalink terminal on the aircraft. Datalink would be line-of-sight capable. Datalink will be interoperable with ground-tethered assets for data exchange and exploitation. Permits airborne exploitation of UAV sensors. Provides capability for cooperative direction finding for near instantaneous target geolocation. Allows aircrews to draw on in-theater intelligence center databases and processing capability. Provides for near-real-time interaction between theater assets, increasing probability of intercepting targets, and increasing geolocation accuracy of target locations. Airborne reconnaissance platforms require a wideband datalink for interaction among platforms in order to provide high probability of signal detection, provide accurate and timely target geolocation, draw on theater atabases and processing capability to exploit robust signals, and permit airborne access to UAV sensor data. Without this upgrade, RIVET JOINT aircraft will not be able to exchange data among in-theater reconnaissance platforms and draw on CONUS based national assets to exchange data, cooperatively geolocate targets, and exploit robust targets in near-real-time.

RIVET JOINT Wideband SATCOM Data Link/Global Broadcast Service (GBS) procures, installs and integrates a wideband datalink terminal on the aircraft. Datalink would expand the capability of a wideband line-of-sight datalink to add SATCOM capable. Datalink will be interoperable with ground-tethered assets for data exchange and exploitation. Permits airborne exploitation of UAV sensors. Provides capability for cooperative direction finding for near instantaneous target geolocation. Allows aircrews to draw on in-theater intelligence center databases and processing capability, or provide for reach-back to CONUS intelligence center databases and processing capability. Provides for near-real-time interaction between theater and national assets, increasing probability of intercepting targets, and increasing geolocation accuracy of target locations. Terminal will permit receipt of Global Broadcast Service. Airborne reconnaissance platforms require a wideband datalink for interaction among platforms in order to provide high probability of signal detection, provide accurate and timely target geolocation, draw on theater and CONUS databases and processing capability to exploit robust signals, and permit airborne access to UAV sensor data. RIVET JOINT aircraft will not be able to exchange data among in-theater reconnaissance platforms and draw on CONUS based national assets to exchange data, cooperatively geolocate targets, and exploit robust targets in near-real-time.

RIVET JOINT Operator Workstation Upgrade procures and installs high resolution operator displays to improve target detection and signal recognition. Wide band fiber optic base audio distribution network to all operators. Wide band, high capacity COTS audio recorders. High capacity, digital, reprogramable, wideband demodulators and processors. Current display resolution is insufficient to allow accurate signal detection and recognition of modern modulation target signals. Several current target emitters exceed the bandwith of the current audio distribution system, resulting in unintelligible audio output. Several receiver outputs are routed to specific operator positions, limiting flexibility in responding to theater driven dynamic target environments. Bandwidth and capacity of current recorders is exceeded by an emerging class of wideband modern modulation target emitters. Bandwidth and capacity of current signal demodulators is exceeded by an emerging class of wideband modern modulation target emitters. Current demodulators are not reprogramable. It is expensive and time consuming to reconfigure them to process different target emitters.

RIVET JOINT Cockpit Modernization includes the RIVET JOINT in the Air Force PACER CRAG initiative to upgrade the C-135 fleet cockpit, and installs the GATM/FANS avionics required to operate in the evolving civil air structure. PACER CRAG installs new compasses, radar, multi-function displays, and global positioning system/flight management system. New fuel panel, Mode S IFF, TCAS, precision altimeters, and DAMA compliant, 8.333 KHz channel radios are included in this upgrade. The upgrade provides RIVET JOINT and RJ Trainer (TC-135) aircraft commonality with the C-135 fleet for training, logistics, and parts. Eliminated "vanishing vendor" problems associated with diverging from the KC-135 avionics. Permits aircraft to comply with ICAO navigation and communication standards to operate in the trans-oceanic and European portions of the commercial air structure. Improves safety, reliability, and maintainability of aircraft. Aircraft will be denied access to increasing portions of civil air space without proper navigation/communications equipment. Current avionics systems will become unsupportable as KC-135 migrates to newer equipment. Commonality will be lost with the rest of the C-135 fleet. Common parts supply base will not be available.

CFM-56 Re-engining completes re-engining of RC-135 aircraft with CFM-56 engines, and modifies the airframes to support re-engining. The project decreases cost of ownership and increases operational capability by installing new, fuel efficient engines. The upgrade also reduces maintenance manpower and logistics costs; the new engine is more reliable than the current engine, and the engine is common with the AMC KC-135 fleet. This project extends unrefueled range and time-on-station, and permits operations at higher altitudes, increasing airborne sensor field of view and effectiveness. Increased altitude range provides flexibility to airspace planners integrating aircraft into conjested airspace just behind the FEBA. The new engines decrease dependency on tankers for air refueling, and provide a capability to takeoff on shorter runways at increased gross weights. The project facilitates two-level maintenance concept reducing costs by 32%, and supports improved aircraft environmental system prolonging sensitive sensor life. Failure to fund re-engining to completion will leave a logistically split RC-135 fleet, equipped with two completely different engines. Increased cost of ownership due to duplicate spares at each operating location. Current TF-33 engines will become more difficult and costly to support requiring significant increases in future O&M costs (TF-33 parts no longer in production). The RC-135 fleet would lack commonality with re-engined KC-135 fleet, and the GAO validated $1.7B life cycle savings (total RC-135 program) would not be realized if this project was not funded.

In 1996, the service decided to spend $612 million over a decade to include the RJs in the multibillion-dollar effort to replace engines aerial tankers. As of late 2002, four RJs had been delivered On 24 October 2001 the House Appropriations Committee recommended spending for the re-engining of four Rivet Joint aircraft.

RIVET JOINT Air Conditioning (A/C) Environmental Cooling Modifications procures and installs a vapor cycle cooling system. Includes a liquid cooling loop and heat exchangers. The system will provide in excess of 10 tons of additional cooling at all operating altitudes. Permits effective operation of collection systems added to the aircraft over the last decade. Reduces the requirements for auxiliary air conditioning during ground support operations. The heat load of the "mission equipment" has exceeded the capacity of the standard C-135 air-conditioning system. Skin heat exchangers have been installed to effect additional cooling. This system is only effective at altitudes in excess of 25,000 ft and has reached its capacity. To allow future growth in system capabilities, flexibility in operations, and crew comfort, additional capacity must be obtained. Without increased A/C capability, future growth of aircraft mission equipment, operational flexibility, and crew comfort will be curtailed.

The RIVET JOINT Mission Trainer (RJMT) will provide a high fidelity ground trainer for RC-135 RIVET JOINT reconnaissance compartment personnel, using aircraft hardware and software. The trainer will be equipped with signal generators to create and display a full range of radar and communications signals to the reconnaissance crew. A complex, syncronized signal environment can be presented to the crew, permitting coordinated exploitation of these signal. The trainer will be equipped with Link-11, Link-16, and TIBS datalinks to train aircrew to effectively interact with other battle management assets. The trainer will be Distributed Interactive Simulation capable, permitting RIVET JOINT participation in large scale exercises. The RJMT will provide initial qualification, currency, and upgrade training. RJMT is required to conduct efficient and cost effective initial qualification, continuation/proficiency, and specific mission area training for RC-135 reconnaissance compartment aircrew. Current RC-135 mission training devices are limited to position mock-ups, outdated part-task trainers, PC-based procedural trainers, and audio playback workstations. These devices are supplimented with extensive airborne training flights on mission aircraft. The heavy dependence upon mission aircraft directly impacts training timeliness, continuity, and costs, and this training does not adequately simulate a challenging collection environment. RJMT will relieve the training load in the ops squadron, reduce dependence on aircraft availability for training, and facilitate decreasing the total aircrew TDY rate to 120 days per year (ACC goal). RJMT will provide an improved margin of safety during contingency operations. The only contingency training available is OJT during actual operations. The simulator will provide a safe controlled environment to practice tactics, develop new procedures, and exploit new capabilities. RJMT will allow RC-135 aircrews to interact, through Distributed Interactive Simulation (DIS), with other platforms simulators. Through electronic exercises, the RJMT will provide aircrew exposure to multiple interoperability issues, tactics, and procedures. RC-135 operational effectiveness is significantly impacted because an integrated training device is not available for the training of crewmembers in Sensitive Reconnaissance Operations (SRO), contingency support, SIOP missions, and exercises. Ops tempo is reduced to support initial training and proficiency requirements. Air crewmember TDY will continue to exceed the stated ACC goal of 120 days per year. Capability to train entire squadrons on aircraft equipment modifications/upgrades is not available. Capability for RC-135 aircrews to electronically exercise with other platform simulators developing new tactics and procedures, performing interoperability issues will not be available.

RIVET JOINT Crew Comfort Upgrade installs a modern, commercial aircraft-class latrine for crew comfort. New latrine will provide increased holding capacity and the capability to be serviced, from the ground, using current field servicing equipment. Provides a sink, with fresh running water, allowing aircrews to wash their hands. Current aircraft latrine leaks and lacks privacy requirements needed for combined male/female aircrews. Waste leakage is causing corrosion problems with aircraft structural components. The smell of the waste/disinfectant fouls the cabin air. Increased aircrew stress due to inferior latrine facility which produces waste/disinfectant odors inside the mission crew area. Leakage corrodes the aircraft structural components.

As of mid-2002, upgrades had been completed on one of the Air Forces Rivet Joint aircraft. With an additional 16,000 pounds of thrust provided by the F-108 engines, the new aircraft has increased endurance, increased reliability, and delivers an anticipated 25,000 more flying hours per engine than before. In addition, the new engines increase the plane's fuel efficiency by 15 percent, increase its time to conduct the mission and enable it to do the mission much more quietly than before. This re-engine initiative for the 14 RJ planes is one of three initiatives to keep the reconnaissance aircraft contributing to the Air Force mission into the year 2020 or even 2030. The second phase is an update of critical mission equipment for the electronic warfare officers, intelligence operators and in-flight maintenance technicians. Phase three will update avionics


Thanks to Wayne Pryor for the email with this info all credit goes to him
Note i just found out this is from a diffrent source then i thought it was its from a security report where i thought it was orig work that had been emailed to me and i didnt need to add much to it . The orig url is www.globalsecurity.org... thanks to Spectre for finding it . Its a good read anyway so enjoy.


[edit on 9-8-2004 by dwh0]




posted on Aug, 7 2004 @ 05:27 AM
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Great Post with alot of Info..... The Dash-80 / 707 airframe has proven to be a versatile airframe for the AF. Thanks for the post.....



posted on Jul, 21 2007 @ 08:15 PM
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the c-135 is not a modified 707, but rather a plane built that parallels with it...



posted on Jul, 21 2007 @ 08:44 PM
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The 135 family is based on the 367-80 or Dash 80. The Dash 80 was the prototype of the 707. Boeing was originally looking at an improved jet powered version of the 367 which was the C/KC-97. For security reasons Boeing named the project 367-80 even though it didn't look anything like the C-97 by the time they were done with it. The KC-135 was simply the Dash 80 airframe. The biggest differences between the KC-135 and the 707 was that the KC-135 was 12 inches wider than the Dash 80 had been, and the 707 was only 4 inches wider than the Dash 80.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 03:39 AM
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i didnt know that the -80 was the test bed....i saw -80/707...and many people in the rc community take offense to that...

i dont think i've ever seen a 707-020..(had to look it up)...i saw the specs...

i've only been able to compare the c-135 to the awacs and jstars....which with wikipedia shows me it's the -320, which is visually much longer



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 09:40 AM
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The E-3, E-8, and C/VC-137s were all based on the -300 airframe. It gives them more range, and more room inside to stuff equipment or in the case of the -137 make them more luxurious.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 11:04 AM
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Both 707 and C-135 were based on the Model 367-80 (commonly referred to as the Dash 80) prototype. The Boeing model number for the C-135 is 717 (a little confusing now as 717 has been re-used to describe what was originally the McDonnell-Douglas MD-95 prior to the take-over of MDD)

The easiest way to think of the difference between the two (and their subsequent developments) is that the 707 has a 'double bubble' fuselage cross section and the C-135 series has a 'single bubble' fuselage cross section. So while some KC-135As received tailplanes and engines from early 707s (as KC-135Es), they still remain 135s rather than 707s.

For the same reason 707s converted to tanker configuration (eg:- Canada, Australia) remain 707s (or KC-707s if you wish) rather than KC-135s.

E-3 (initially EC-137D), E-6, E-8 and C-137 are all 707 based, so have the 'double bubble' fuselage. Interestingly the basic 707 fuselage was also shortened (with different engine configurations) to create the Boeing 727 and 737.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 22/7/07 by The Winged Wombat]



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 08:21 AM
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Actually dwh0 you might be surprised to know Australia already has this capabillity. Back in about 1995/6 a top secret Australian DoD program was initiated to convert at least 2 and possibly 3 of the RAAF's existing P-3C's to a configuration very similar to the USN's EP-3 Aries II. This program is still highly classified and officially denied, but it is known to exist.

Postscript: I have found the following in an article from The Age April 8 2001 " The magazine Flight International said intelligence-gathering flights were carried out by two RAAF EP-3 Orion maritime- surveillance planes which were converted to operate as intelligence platforms under a classified project called Peacemate."

On the subject of the 707 family fuselage family can I also point out that the same fuselage was (is) in use on the 727, 720, 737 and 757 as well. Zaphod, according to a diagram I have the dash-80 family dimensions are as follows. 1) 367-80 Height 164", max width 132". 2) KC-135 Height 166", max width 144". 3) 707/720/727/737/757 Height 170.5", max width 148". If your interested the information comes from the book"Milestones of Aviation", Smithsonian Institution, NASM.Page 283, ISBN 0-88363-589-5

I also remember having somewhere in the bowels of my houses book collection a reference to the Boeing 720 being known briefly for marketing purposes as the 717. Unfortunately I couldn't find which book it was in.

I also believe that at least some of the E-8's were built from recycled 707's that had started life as airliners. Seems someone in congress thought that it would be cheaper than subsidising Boeing to keep the 707 line going past 1990. Interestingly the airframes used required extensive corrosion remedition work and ended up costing more than a new airframe would. I am not 100%, but I think the last 707 built, didn't have an immediate buyer and may have ended up in the E-8 program. Can anyone clarify this?


LEE.



[edit on 23-7-2007 by thebozeian]



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 09:40 AM
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thebozeian,

I'm surprised that the 757 is listed as using the basic 707 fuselage, as, while the internal dimensions are the same, I had always thought that the 757 was a 'clean sheet of paper' design. Perhaps it is the different nose profile that has mislead me.

The Winged Wombat



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 10:05 AM
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Yes I know what you mean. The nose is what throws you. However strictly speaking the 757 metamorphosed from an attempt to build a larger, more capable 727. First they stretched the fuselage, then decided to move the engines to a new wing design. Strangely they decided to add a new nose, while later developments of the 737 still have not. In the end they did indeed end up with essentially a new design. I suspect that there are a number of changes to the basic 707 family fuselage (the wing root and fairing being an obvious example) but it still conforms to the same design and dimensions it would seem. Unfortunately as you know there are basically none on our local register so I dont know of any engineers who could answer the question.

LEE.



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 10:46 AM
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The new cockpit of the 757 (internally - and I suppose the view from it) was common with the 'clean sheet of paper' 767 in an attempt to obtain a single pilot endorsement for both 757 and 767. I seem to recall that this was achieved, as it was for the Airbus A320, A318, A319, A321 series.

I'm unsure as to whether it was achieved for B737-300, -400 , -500, or again for the new generation series of 737s

The Winged Wombat



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 01:09 PM
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i believe that the the 707's for the JSTARS was bought from many places, grave yards the airliners and some from boeing.....i know that one of them was an airliner that was crashed into the water.....and they still converted it....


found a link with some info


www.faqs.org...

two E-8A" prototype Joint-STARS platforms, based on "used" Boeing 707-320C jetliners obtained from commercial operators...

As the 707-300 is no longer in production, all Joint-STARS platforms are based on used machines, but the Boeing 707 is a robust aircraft, the airframes have plenty of life left in them, and the "used" market for the 707 is good. It is unclear if any one 707-300 subvariant is preferred for conversion to Joint-STARS configuration, though the E-8A conversions were based on the 707-323C "quick change" subvariant.


[edit on 23-7-2007 by wenfieldsecret]



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 11:41 AM
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For the record the 367-80 is probably Boeing's most common and preferred "Base" design airframe. It has formed the bases for many different military and civilian airframes:

707
C-135
KC-135
EC-135
RC-135
OC-135
VC-135
E-3
E-8
E-6

Every base design listed above is built using the 367-80 airframe!

Tim



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 12:17 PM
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aye, but if you look again...there's only two planes there...
the c-135 and the 707-300 series...

the kc was the original intent with the c-135
the rc, oc, ec, all still have the boom pods attached...(mostly because they were converted from kc's....and V is the designation for a vip plane...i dont know much about that one...but i'm sure it's a convert too....
The EC has a massive radar, in the nose hence the "Snoopy" nose....(my grandpa flew them way back when and will only say that they did weather missions for NASA) the RC-135S-V/W have radars in their nose for weather and threat detection up to circa 100m.....also with many antennas and cheeks for the V/w and U models

and the awacs jstars and the navy can go poop on themselves for all i care....

[edit on 24-7-2007 by wenfieldsecret]



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by wenfieldsecret
aye, but if you look again...there's only two planes there...
the c-135 and the 707-300 series...

[edit on 24-7-2007 by wenfieldsecret]


Duly noted! I am aware that are only two basic planes on that list. My whole intent was to show how many different airplanes are flying with a 367-80 base airframe. I wanted to highlight the variants for that reason

Tim



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 03:02 PM
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sorry....i didnt realize that's what you were showing.....

i recently read about the c-135 "Vomit Comet" for NASA....it was a zero g tester.....at 24k ft, it pulls up at a 45 degree angle and climbs as fast as it can till it reaches 34k ft, and then it either stalls out or points it's nose at 45 degree angle down....(the article didnt say which)...and drops back to 24k.....


www.space.com...,0.gif&cap=Simulated%20Microgravityclick%20to%20enlarge



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 11:03 PM
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as far as the RAAF ep-3 goes...at some point in my short career....i may or may not have met some aircrew members that may or may not fly on any previously said aircraft.....and any exsiting people would be really cool and nice.....



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