Are the diagnoses of sociopathy/psychopathy/narcissim *themseves* dehumanizing?

Greetings ATS.

Seems like we hear the terms "sociopathy" and "psychopathy" recently (as well as allied disorders such as pathological narcissism) thrown around a lot. I won't link you to any definitions or discussions of what these terms entail -- if you don't already know, there is a wealth of information on ATS and off about the nature of these conditions.

I think the phenomena of psychopathy/sociopathy exist and are valid to point out. What I am less able to get behind is the idea that these are "incurable diseases." Well, maybe. But I have not seem much proof along these lines, only assertions.

When you label somebody as a "sociopath" or narcissist, etc., I would suggest that the diagnosis itself can be dehumanizing.. Why? Because if somebody is given one of these labels, with the presumption that it is an incurable personality disorder, you are basically saying to them: "You are not fully functional because you are missing empathy and you will never be able to feel it. Therefore you aren't really fully human, and we don't have to treat you as such." This places the sociopath even farther outside normal society than he or she might already have been.

How do we really know that these conditions are "incurable?" The brain is enormously plastic, and even people with some forms of severe brain damage have been able to recover their abilities and selves to a great extent after effort and therapy. Might there be a better way to treat the sociopath/psychopath than simply "shunning" them as some kind of incurable monster? Perhaps these diagnoses themselves only make the problem worse.

Can you r say for sure from the outside that another human has no empathy, has no feelings, has no morality? perhaps. But can you really say that they will never be able to develop these qualities and grow as human beings? Putting limits on what humans are mentally/spiritually/emotionally capable of seems a dangerous game to play. What if you are wrong?

Just a thought.

Psychologists no longer use the word "sociopath" anymore because of that reason. It is more referred to as social or mental disorder.

However, I have an ex that is COMPLETELY a sociopath and a habitual liar. So, in her case, I care less how dehumanizing it sounds or how it makes her feel. In fact, I do not think that the term "sociopath" is 'Scarlet Letter' enough for her. lol

Well I've confronted someone with narcissism personality disorder and they took it as a compliment. If I'd call them subhuman, I doubt it would have phased them a bit. It's a bizarre disorder that is deep seeded in early childhood. I'm sure you'd have to unpeel many layers before terms like empathy and compassion would even register, in more severe cases.

reply to post by silent thunder

"Can you r say for sure from the outside that another human has no empathy, has no feelings, has no morality?"

Scientists had put 'psychopaths' (men doing serious time for deliberate murder, serial killing, etc, murders not the result of passion and impulse), in a (is it MRI or CAT Scan, or r those 2 same?.....) and inside, the men were shown images that make people with empathy light up in brain regions. Those mens brains consistently showed different results. If I recall, it involves a different amygdala hypocampus region.

I'm glad this was brought up. I would say absolutely not! Have you ever encountered someone that was a Narcissistic Sociopath? The real thing, not just someone full of themself, but someone that completely feeds on destruction in every way of everything around them? It's something so grand in scope I can't even go into it here. It's so figuratively above normal people's heads that it's hard to ... actually it's nearly impossible describe. Here is something I can tell you about it... it is NOT relatable to most other mental illnesses.Like you can say, oh this person has Schizophrenia, or this person has obsessions... these people LOVE their condition, (and from one account I've known, relate and transpose their illness as "God"(!)

It's like the complexity of Schizophrenia to the 40th degree IMO. In that I mean, it's like a typical Schizophrenic "folded over" 40 times. 40 times the complexity of an ill or non-ill person! And on top of that, they literally seek out "gangs" of other NBPD's, and form a feeding pecking order with a true hierarchy. (research, I may post links later)

I have read nearly every article I could get my hands on at the time, and the treatment rates and cure rates are dismally low. I'm not going to be a softhead and say "because they don't want to be cured." Again, in my opinion, they can't quite take in or understand what a treatment specialist discusses with them. And the more they learn about their condition, it goes into the "how to be better at what I do" inbox, instead of the how can I be a good person inbox.

I just don't even know. I can't honestly say that some of those people are "human" in the sense that 100% of every other person I have ever known, by a WIDE margin. And the complete destructiveness they reek makes them SO dangerous to be around. (I almost feel like I want to warn people here.) And yes, they are human, but indistinguishable from what I would consider the most real-life version of a monster.

Should they be dehumanized? Never, absolutely not.
Is the diagnosis dehumanizing? Not at ALL. If one is identified, they NEED to be treated. Often, when one is identified collectively as a Narcissist(real NBPD) it often stops this person from RUINING people's lives, physically, emotionally, financially, and criminally. It should be more understood and used CORRECTLY, to identify these people. I think it's going to be one of those things that people start using to insult normal people who have some of those traits, however.

If you or someone you know is being harmed by an NBPD, RUN. what? RUN, do nothing else but run. If you know someone who has a very unusual abusive partner who seems to be doing it in a pattern, research NBPD, and discuss it with this person. And if it REALLY (and you'll know it) fits the bill RUN. Sorry, that was my warning

But don't use it incorrectly, someone who is a jerk doesn't necessarily have it. Someone who does have it, it is VERY specific.

reply to post by rogoeiefar


Yup, and I myself am in no situation to diagnose and label another, but........I had interracted with a couple or three or so, 'persons' in my life, who had ZERO empathy. It was literally alien to them, like they were Cylons minus empathy hardwired programming.
Such is THEE secret to the "Let them eat cake" genocidal attitudes, for example. However, I understand the OP's concern. A couple days ago, I watched this amazing movie on TV, called, 'Equilibrium'. It came out in '03, but I never heard of it! I thought it was truly on par with 'Minority Report'. Absolutely. Anyone who is able to, you should see this film. Well, it takes place in a Dark National Security police State, where emotion has been abolished, via mandatory self ingections of an emotion erasing drug. Anyone caught not complying, is a "sense offender" and is dealt with, severely. But in the real world, emotionals aren't the culprits, it's those without. But we don't want lynching parties and black vans scooping up all the Narcissists. (Well, you might not......I wouldn't mind..........)

If you read my post you will see I am not arguing that this diagnosis isn't valid or that this disease doesn't exist. In fact I tried to make that specific, but I guess I didn't succeed.

What I object to are the absolutes: "he feels no introspection." "She is incapable of empathy" "They will never change." You seem to hear this a lot. What is the proof?

Already in this thread some posters have made statements that imply the possibility of a "sliding scale; i.e., some have "episodes" more frequently than others. This would imply degrees of severity rather than all-or-nothing, you-have-it-for-life-if-you-have-it-at-all scenarios, and would call into question the use of terms like "never," "impossible to feel," and "none at all," etc.

reply to post by silent thunder


if the mushrooms reject them...

Terence_McKenna's The_Stoned_Ape_hypothesis_of_human_evolution

the mushrooms would out the the heartless ones and the whole community knew who they were and dealt with it.

those who simply expelled them, simply pushed the problem out of the community,created a threat to travelers, and thus to trade, and eventually helped the heartless ones to form their own alliances

and then the mushrooms started dying out...saharasia

the psychopaths and sociopaths saw their chance, struck, and the rest is what we call history.

the problem with the psychopaths and sociopaths, fellow seeker, is the fact that they are in the position of the dominator class and have been so throughout the "Nightmare of History" 10,000yrs or so now.

the ones on the news and in books are the failures/stupid ones

most of those stories of a hero encountering a monster/ogre/dragon/giant and killing it?
y'know not so much like Grendel, but monsters like Procrustes those were the psychopaths and sociopaths of yore set up in some cottage or out of the way place. just like the dahlmers of these times.


why do you think that part of waking up is realizing that we live on Bizzarro World?

look whose in charge.

dehumanizing?

i think of them as another species.
and a threat to humanity.

some call them reptilians based on 3rd eye-view, some call them the NWO, i call them:

The Custodians of The Black Iron Prison

well, the ones on "top" at least

Thanks. I'd like everyone to see that movie. My mistake though, Google says '2002' (not '03.) It's by Kurt Wimmer, and stars Christian Bale. Someone tell me I wasn't hallucinating, cuz he lookd JUST LIKE Tom Cruise.
I was convinced it was Cruise.

The persons-of-interest I encountered, (per my above post) were emotional, thats for sure, but it was sheerly surfacey, and you are right, they 'melted down' when something wasn't to their likeing, and for them. They had me --- constantly ---- without rest, introspecting myself, because nothing was ever them, it was me or whoever. Those bad old days were the '90's, (and one time in '05) and I had utterly zero clue about these alternate-brain'd conditions. So I therefore put myself at their mercy, at times, and got stung really badly for that. Ignorance is not bliss!

I am troubled (as she introspects) that I cheer them being swept up in black vans. Does that make me contradictory and a hypocrite? And even.........one of them?

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger


dehumanizing?

i think of them as another species.
and a threat to humanity.

some call them reptilians based on 3rd eye-view, some call them the NWO, i call them:

The Custodians of The Black Iron Prison

well, the ones on "top" at least

So who gets to decide who is human and who isn't?
What if you are accused of being "not human" in this way? How could you clear your name? Or conversely, how could it be decisvely proven?
See the dangers to this type of thinking?

Originally posted by rogoeiefar
reply to post by silent thunder

 

I don't want to dehumanize them, I feel they need help. But others might not. They have a disability, and would benefit from treatment.

Well, see, here you go. You just put your finger on the heart of the matter: If they can be helped and treated, then what is with terms like "impossible to cure" "absolute zero empathy," etc.??

If they can be cured, it is incorrect to describe the conditions in such black-and-white, all-or-nothing ways.

This is from www.mcafee.cc...

Profile of the Sociopath

This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.


Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

I don't know about you but most of these descriptions remind me of Obama...

reply to post by silent thunder


the mushrooms are the key

think about how rabid TCOTBIP and their Brutals get when comes to them.
and they couldn't find a way to misuse them re MKULTRA and such

they can also help heal a secondary, that is someone raised or over exposed to psychos so as to become as one.

i understand your point:

the term Schizophrenia has been radically redefined for political or social expedience various times during the last century and was used to lock up suffragettes and negros in the civil rights movement
[mistrust of and believing the government was actively conspiring to take or deny you your rights was part of the diagnosis]


your kindness just looks like weakness or worse pity to them

and they will use it against you every chance they get.


i know quite a bit about socios, having been occasionally raised by one, i'll spare you the details, point is while empathy may be one humanity's greatest strengths it can also be used against us.

Look at those list of features carefully, then look out at society....

To be a bit sociopathic is to be pro-social. What does that tell you about our society?!

Who qualifies the threshold which makes one a pathological liar or not?

Based on what standards?

Designed by whom?

The term is horrible.

We're all just a bunch of unique individuals.

Each has slightly different genetic makeups and their own life experiences which bring them to be who they are.

These labels are a product of ignorance and arrogance.

They negate from humanity instead of adding much of anything.

Dig deeper.

Find your own heart first.