Audio of a Vietnam Swift Boat vet saying Kerry RAN under fire....hear it this thread.

Originally posted by donguillermo
One of them, Steven Gardner, is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Which is a handful, ten or one?

I think most people would have gotten the point. Sorry I didn't cross my t's and dot my i's with absolute precision for you.

You have no argument, so you construct a hypothetical situation, then give your opinion about what people would say. Pathetic.

Calling me pathetic? Gosh, insulting. Did I insult you in such a manner? Maybe I should run for a Mod.
Oh no, wait...that's your game. Personally, my skin is thicker.

Actually, maybe you should have a look around ATS. Other people here have used the label "Bush crime family" and blamed them for everything including using his "thugs" to get to people and even actually knowing/planning 9-11, all without any proof. My statement was not "constructed" but rather pointing out the difference in treatment.

As for the word "argument", quite frankly that's your game not mine. I was simply posting thoughts I had on the subject, which is what many members here do. They are not looking for someone to continually jump on them for using a loose term like, ummm...let say "handful".

The bottom line is Kerry and his supporters say good things. Fine, then Don is a happy boy. But there are also many that say bad things. Why eliminate them so casually like you do? Sure, you have proof of a few that have lied...great, give yourself a star. The point of my post was that if a similar thing happened regarding Bush, people would brand him guilty no matter what and no matter the evidence.

I will continue my analysis and rebuttal of your post in a future post.

Don't bother. Like I said...spinster in full effect. I'm sure soon you're going to start grading my spelling and grammer.

This is JOHN KERRY speaking in front of the US Senate 1971���..This is the audio that has caused so much pain to Vietnam Vets all over America���..

Hear it at this link���..not complete due to file size limits�I will post link to entire speech soon.

photos.imageevent.com...


Here's the deal... On April 22, 1971, Kerry "testified" before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He started out by saying:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....They told the stories at times they had personally... [and then it went into these alleged atrocities that they "personally" saw or committed]" ... "We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation."

In his testimony he repeated "charges" from a mock trial, dubbed the "Winter Soldier Investigation," held in Detroit by anti-war activists in January and February of 1971. At that mock event, men claiming to be combat veterans accused themselves of atrocities. These were unsupported claims, and it later turned out that many of the men who made the claims were never in combat, or never in Nam, and some were never even in the military at all but were falsely using the names of actual veterans. (Remember, Kerry referred to these people as "honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans"). These "personal accounts" that Kerry was relaying in his testimony were the rantings of angry war protesters, not actual accounts of witnesses as Kerry claimed. (None of the soldiers would sign an affidavit to their "personal accounts.")

The possibility exists that Kerry took them at their word and thought he was telling the truth. The possibility also exists - and this is what many Vets feel - that he knew all along he was telling false stories and just assumed he'd be believed and no one would go back and re-interview those alleged "witnesses" of the alleged "atrocities." (Ironically, this concept of "Did he know he was lying to Congress? Or did he relay information that he believed to be true but it later turned out to be untrue?" ... mirrors certain current events involving another candidate.)

Here, maybe this helps:


Quote
The Winter Soldier Investigation, took place in Detroit, Michigan, on January 31-February 2, 1971. An activity of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, it was presented as an assembly of 100 Vietnam War Veterans giving detailed testimony to specific crimes against humanity by the United States in Vietnam during the years of 1963-1970. The soldiers' testimony often overlaps, which if true would have exposed a pattern of atrocities against the Vietnamese people. According to Stolen Valor, the investigation has been thoroughly discredited.

Jane Fonda helped raise funds for the event, and organizers included Dick Gregory, Phil Ochs, Graham Nash, David Crosby, and Donald Sutherland.

Future Senator John Kerry, then a decorated lieutenant in the Naval Reserve (inactive status), would shortly thereafter testify before the American Congress to the general conclusions gathered in Detroit. At Winter Soldier, Kerry interviewed participants before they were presented by moderator Al Hubbard.

Sen. Mark Hatfield of Oregon entered the Winter Soldier transcripts into the Congressional Record and asked the commandant of the Marine Corps for an investigation. Investigators were unable to confirm [any of] the claimed atrocities, identified several participants as never being in combat, and some participants had used the names of Vietnam veterans.

Guenter Lewy in America in Vietnam says "The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service are interesting and revealing ... Many of the veterans, although assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities."

Phony Vietnam veterans around Winter Soldier

Guenter Lewy's 1978 book America in Vietnam (pages 316-317) and B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley's Stolen Valor (Verity Press, Inc., Dallas, Texas)(pages 113, 131-137) contain similar information about flaws in testimony and participants.

Lawyer and activist Mark Lane was one of the organizers of Winter Soldier. In 1970, Lane had published a book called Conversations With Americans purporting to be interviews with Vietnam veterans about war crimes, containing absurd Vietnam tales. Reporter Neil Sheehan showed some participants had never served in Vietnam and others had not been in the situations they described. Lane admitted he did not check military records, as "confirmation of details was not relevant."

From: explanation-guide.info...


Kerry hasn't taken it back and hasn't actually admitted it was incorrect information (again, sounds ironically familiar, doesn't it?) The closest he has come to admitting his testimony was false is this:


Quote


"I think the way I characterized it at that time was mostly the voice of a young, angry person who wanted to end the war," Kerry told CNN's Candy Crowley in an interview broadcast on Thursday's anniversary of his Senate testimony. "I regret any feeling that anybody had that I somehow didn't embrace the quality of the service. But I have always said how nobly I think every veteran served." The senator concedes he wouldn't say the same things in the same way today, [and] that talk of "atrocities" back then was "over the top."

----------------

This past weekend, Kerry said that his use of the word "atrocity" in a 1971 interview was "inappropriate."

--------------------However....

Such qualified regret doesn't go far enough for some Vietnam veterans, who can't forgive the stigma they still see attached to those long-ago words. "He was the father of the lie that the Vietnam veteran was a rapist, a baby killer, a drug addict and the like," said John O'Neill, who served in the same Navy patrol unit where Kerry served and who sparred with him on national TV during the tumult of 1971. "I don't think there's anybody that did that, or created that, more than Kerry."

In his testimony, Kerry said crimes were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." This sweeping generalization is part of why the soldiers were spit on and dishonored when they came home, which they did not deserve, and his statements were read by the captors during the torturing of our POWs at the time. There were literally millions of soldiers serving, to paint all of them as criminals was extremely damaging to the soldiers who were still over there.

Firebase says

In his testimony, Kerry said crimes were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." This sweeping generalization is part of why the soldiers were spit on and dishonored when they came home,

Please provide documented proof that returning Viet Nam veterans were spit on by anti-war protesters, or anyone else. This is another urban myth which the right-wing propaganda machine likes to trot out. No doubt, somewhere, sometime, someone spit on a Viet Nam veteran. It is a fact that people do get spat upon in our society, and I am sure the ranks of the spat upon include Viet Nam veterans. But there is no evidence that protesters and others spitting upon Viet Nam veterans was a common phenomenon. Indeed, there is no evidence that it ever happened at all.

Several historians have found other inaccuracies - or at least overstatements - about Vietnam. One is the notion that Vietnam soldiers were routinely spit upon when returning from the war.

Though the spitting stories have been widely told, they are likely nothing more than urban myth, says Jerry Lembcke, a Vietnam veteran and sociology professor at Holy Cross College, who recently wrote a book about the subject.

In that book, "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and Vietnam," he writes that he couldn't document a single case of a US servicemember being spit on.

"I actually thought I'd find some factual basis for this. But I have still not found a single piece of compelling evidence that it ever happened," Mr. Lembcke says.

Vietnam revised: toppling myths about the war

That is from the Christian Science Monitor, not exactly a left-wing propaganda source.

There were literally millions of soldiers serving, to paint all of them as criminals was extremely damaging to the soldiers who were still over there.

That is a mischaracterization of Kerry's Senate testimony and other statements he has made. Please document that Kerry ever painted all Viet Nam veterans as criminals.

Originally posted by donguillermo

Please provide documented proof that returning Viet Nam veterans were spit on by anti-war protesters, or anyone else. This is another urban myth which the right-wing propaganda machine likes to trot out. No doubt, somewhere, sometime, someone spit on a Viet Nam veteran. It is a fact that people do get spat upon in our society, and I am sure the ranks of the spat upon include Viet Nam veterans. But there is no evidence that protesters and others spitting upon Viet Nam veterans was a common phenomenon. Indeed, there is no evidence that it ever happened at all.

Though the spitting stories have been widely told, they are likely nothing more than urban myth, says Jerry Lembcke, a Vietnam veteran and sociology professor at Holy Cross College, who recently wrote a book about the subject.

That is a mischaracterization of Kerry's Senate testimony and other statements he has made. Please document that Kerry ever painted all Viet Nam veterans as criminals.

I ask you -
donguillermo why do you want me to do your reaearch for you?? I already gave you the proof that Kerry told LIES, now your asking me to give you proof that returning Vietnam veterans were spit on by anti-war protesters........your joking right? What country are you from brother, are you an American, and if so how old are you, and where were you in the late 60's and early 70's?? Looks to me like all you got is information from the internet, not from being there, or living in the times.

Also refer to this link to hear Kerry painting all Viet Nam veterans as criminals.
photos.imageevent.com...


hooha

(edited to add url link)

[edit on 23-8-2004 by Firebase]

Firebase says

ask you -
donguillermo why do you want me to do your reaearch for you?? I already gave you the proof that Kerry told LIES,

Excuse me, I must have missed the part where you gave me proof that Kerry told lies. I see nothing in the material you have presented in this thread that shows Kerry told lies.

now your asking me to give you proof that returning Vietnam veterans were spit on by anti-war protesters........your joking right?

No, I am not joking. You believe in an urban myth, for which there is no proof. The only proof of protesters spitting on veterans I have seen is in the first Rambo movie, "First Blood". Hint: Rambo movies are not documentaries.

What country are you from brother, are you an American, and if so how old are you, and where were you in the late 60's and early 70's??

I am 59, and I am an American. In 1968 and 1969, I was serving in the Marine Corps in Viet Nam.

Looks to me like all you got is information from the internet, not from being there, or living in the times.

I was there. I lived in the times. I heard the spitting stories, just like you did. I also heard a lot of other urban myths that weren't true.

Also refer to this link to hear Kerry painting all Viet Nam veterans as criminals.
photos.imageevent.com...

I listened to the audio. This is just an excerpt from Kerry's Senate testimony. I have read Kerry's complete Senate testimony. There is nothing in that testimony that can be accurately characterized as painting all Viet Nam Veterans as criminals.

Originally posted by donguillermo
I listened to the audio. If you listen to the end, you hear the speaker clearly state that Kerry's boat returned, and Kerry rescued Rassman from the water. Kerry was the man who actually rescued the man in the water. When the initial mine exploded, Kerry made a tactical decision to maneuver his boat to get troops ashore away from the ambush, not knowing the magnitude of a possible ambush. He immediately returned and performed a rescue, for which he received a Bronze Star. To characterize Kerry's actions as running is absurd. You can read a very detailed account of that day at the following link.

John Kerry's Final Mission in Vietnam

Here is a brief excerpt.

Almost casually, the Swifts formed up and headed out from the village. The five boats had gone about half a mile when the blast came. Right where they had been hit on an earlier mission, a mine exploded directly beneath Lieutenant James Rassman's PCF-3 near Kerry's port side. Rassman's Swift lifted about two feet up out of the water, engulfed in mud and spray, then settled, rocking so hard from side to side that the boat started zigzagging from the banks to the middle of the river. Everybody on board PCF-3 was wounded. "At the same moment, we came under a hail of small-arms fire from both banks," Kerry recorded in his journal. "I turned the boat into the fire on the left with the intention of trying to get the troops ashore on the outskirts of the ambush, but Sandusky, who was driving the boat and who had his eyes glued on the crippled 3 boat, pointed out to me how badly hit they had been. We veered back toward her then and tried to provide cover from the engaged side. Suddenly another explosion went off right beside us, and the concussion threw me violently against the bulkhead on the door, and I smashed my arm. At the same instant, Jim Rassman was blown overboard, although nobody knew it. But we continued sidling up to the 3, and as we came closer I could see that her twin-.50 mount over the pilothouse had been completely blown out of its stand and had landed on the gunner. No one was moving on the stern. [PCF-3 crewman] Ken Tryner, on his first real river expedition, was kneeling dazed in the doorway with a small trickle of blood down his face, aimlessly firing his M-79."

If you listened to the audio, it should be clear to you that this is the same incident described in the audio.



[edit on 8/7/2004 by donguillermo]

There were also 3 other people pulled out of the river that day, by 3 other people. How come only Kerry received a Bronze Star that day? If Kerry wants to run as a war hero, let him defend his war record. Judging by the Democratic Convention, he sure can't defend his Senate record. The breaking news now is Kerry was never in Cambodia, not within 50 miles of it, but Kerry stated he spent Christmas there.

Just one more thing, if you are such a Hillary Fan, why in the heck would you vote for Kerry? The Clinton's will not let Kerry win in 2004, as it would mess up Hillary's run in 2008. Watch out for the "October Surprise" this election, it won't come from republicans, but from the Clinton's themselves.

Carseller4 says

There were also 3 other people pulled out of the river that day, by 3 other people. How come only Kerry received a Bronze Star that day?

Who said Kerry was the only one to receive a Bronze Star? I believe there were other Bronze Stars awarded for the action that day. Please don't ask me to prove it. You made the assertion that only Kerry received a Bronze Star that day. It is up to you to prove your assertion, not for me to disprove it.

If Kerry wants to run as a war hero, let him defend his war record. Judging by the Democratic Convention, he sure can't defend his Senate record.

Why does he need to defend his Senate record? In 19 years in the Senate, Kerry sponsored 57 bills that became law. In 11 years in the House of Representatives, Dick Cheney sponsored 2 bills that became law. One of them was a personal favor for a friend of Cheney's.

Legislative Accomplishments

Cheney, 11 years in the House:


96th Congress: 4 Sponsored; 0 became Law

97th Congress: 4 Sponsored: 0 became Law

98th Congress: 8 Sponsored: 0 became Law

99th Congress: 7 Sponsored: 1 became Law
(H.R.1246 : A bill to establish a federally declared floodway for the Colorado River below Davis Dam.)

100th Congress: 7 Sponsored: 1 became Law

(H.R.712 : A bill for the relief of Lawrence K. Lunt.)

101st Congress: 1 Sponsored: 0 became Law


Taken from a Kerry press release, which included this quote from Congressman Spratt (D-SC):


Dick Cheney served in the Congress for 11 years. I served with him for most of these years. In that time, he only passed two bills. One was to build a flood plain on the Colorado River and the other was a bill to help a constituent. What�s even more telling about Dick Cheney�s record in the House is not what he supported but what he opposed � things like Headstart and funding for seniors. It seems pretty dishonest for Bush and Cheney to be attacking John Kerry - who passed 57 bills in the Senate � for his legislative accomplishments.

atrios.blogspot.com...

The breaking news now is Kerry was never in Cambodia, not within 50 miles of it, but Kerry stated he spent Christmas there.

The breaking news is that Drudge is reporting this. This story is being discussed and questioned in the following thread.

Kerry Lied about 'Christmas in Cambodia'

Just one more thing, if you are such a Hillary Fan, why in the heck would you vote for Kerry?

Because George Bush is a warmongering lunatic who, if reelected, will establish a theocratic national-security police state and start World War III.

The Clinton's will not let Kerry win in 2004, as it would mess up Hillary's run in 2008. Watch out for the "October Surprise" this election, it won't come from republicans, but from the Clinton's themselves.

Yawn. Conspiracy theories are so boring.

Donguillermo, brother you just put my head in a spin� you really had me going with all these challenges about Kerry� but now I wonder if your keeping up with anything else that is happening in the world.

Do you not realize we are headed towards a 3rd World War as we set on our computers and debate this election, no matter who wins?? Without going into great details let me drop a few names, and you tell me if I�m wrong. Iran, India, Pakistan, North Korea, Russia, China, and others with one word in common �NUKES � brother if you can�t see that as a Marine, then I just don�t know what to say.

As for Kerry and what is happening in this world let me ask you this. Is this the time to have a man in command of the United States military that whines over what was happening in the Vietnam war, my God brother I was a Marine in Vietnam, I saw some of the things Kerry spoke of, but I never set down and cried about it. I just picked up my weapon and moved on with my life, supporting my brothers still in Vietnam, and always being prepared to return to Vietnam if ask to do so. How can a man like Kerry be expected to make live and die decisions for our country when he lies about the Vietnam war to advance his political goals. Sure I agree with you that Bush is not the strongest leader we have ever had, but Kerry is no better. Both tell lies, have pumped up images of themselves in their own heads, and have more money then most of us will see in our lifetime.

As far as I am concerned we did not strike back hard enough after the attacks on September 11, 2001. Proof of that? The terrorist are still out there. If we had hit hard, and hit the right countries VERY hard, and I mean within hours of the attacks, the terrorist would have been hunted down for us, to keep us from blowing up another country. The day that other countries allowed terrorist to train, and operate in their homeland to attack and kill thousands of Americans, I say from that day on there are no friendlies.
(Yes that is from the movie Rambo, and my feelings from the Vietnam war, after serving in the 1st MarDiv 2nd BN 7th Marine, 3rd BN 5th Marines, III MAF 4th CAG Dong Ha & DMZ).

As for Kerry�s medals, you were in Nam just like I was, and you know medals were given out wholesale over there, agree or disagree I don�t care, that is how I saw it, I know you recall the P38 purple heart. As for me I was offered purple hearts twice, and turned them down both times because I felt my injuries did not warrant a purple heart. One would had been for ramming a shiver of bamboo up under my thumb nail while I was sliding down the side of a steep slope ducking VC sniper fire, over a course of two weeks in the jungle I endured large amounts of pain in my hand due to the swelling. Upon returning to Firebase Ross the Docs cut my thumb nail off hoping to find what was causing the infection. The other was I drink water from a stream in the jungle that Charlie had poured human waste into, which almost killed me, that was the one that got me shipped home. Both times the corpsmen wanted to fill out the paper work, but I told them I was there to serve my country in it�s time of need, and did not need a medal for such P38 type injuries. Hooah, guess I was wrong about the value placed on a medal.

The terrorist are still out there brother, and it looks like the 3rd World War cannot be stopped, would you as a Marine want the commander replaced in the middle of the firefight?

[edit on 23-8-2004 by Firebase]

Originally posted by donguillermo
Why does he need to defend his Senate record? In 19 years in the Senate, Kerry sponsored 57 bills that became law. In 11 years in the House of Representatives, Dick Cheney sponsored 2 bills that became law. One of them was a personal favor for a friend of Cheney's.

It's not about how many bills a person has sponsored, but what those bills were about... also, how they voted on bills that they didn't sponsor, and what those bills were about...

Originally posted by donguillermo
The only proof of protesters spitting on veterans I have seen is in the first Rambo movie, "First Blood". Hint: Rambo movies are not documentaries.

Neither are Michael Moore films! I'll stick with National Geographic and The History Channel for my documentaries.

P.S. -- Are the "Rambo" movies very entertaining? I've never seen any of them. (How many of them are there? Three?)


[edit on 8/12/2004 by ThunderCloud]

It's Kerry's book read it for yourself ....then you decide. Or read his testimony to Congress. Google it it's everywhere.

Originally posted by JacKatMtn
I am a veteran, my only potential problem with J. Kerry, concerning the Vietnam War is this:

While I can understand his opposition to the war, (I know that the gov't used our soldiers as pawns in polls), what bothers me is the claims he criticized the soldiers serving in the war. I have heard claims that Kerry did this, but I haven't seen it come from his mouth. If you have access to this evidence please let me know, because I really don't want to prejudge him on what I have heard. Maybe it is me but I know in my heart, having served in combat, that I would never denegrate the service of our soldiers, especially while they were still in harms way.

It may not be an important issue to you but to me, if you would turn your back on those who are fighting for your country, you do not deserve to be the leader of those who you have condemned.

My Father in law was in the Corp in Nam in 68

Originally posted by donguillermo
Firebase says

ask you -
donguillermo why do you want me to do your reaearch for you?? I already gave you the proof that Kerry told LIES,

Excuse me, I must have missed the part where you gave me proof that Kerry told lies. I see nothing in the material you have presented in this thread that shows Kerry told lies.

now your asking me to give you proof that returning Vietnam veterans were spit on by anti-war protesters........your joking right?

No, I am not joking. You believe in an urban myth, for which there is no proof. The only proof of protesters spitting on veterans I have seen is in the first Rambo movie, "First Blood". Hint: Rambo movies are not documentaries.

What country are you from brother, are you an American, and if so how old are you, and where were you in the late 60's and early 70's??

I am 59, and I am an American. In 1968 and 1969, I was serving in the Marine Corps in Viet Nam.

Looks to me like all you got is information from the internet, not from being there, or living in the times.

I was there. I lived in the times. I heard the spitting stories, just like you did. I also heard a lot of other urban myths that weren't true.

Also refer to this link to hear Kerry painting all Viet Nam veterans as criminals.
photos.imageevent.com...

I listened to the audio. This is just an excerpt from Kerry's Senate testimony. I have read Kerry's complete Senate testimony. There is nothing in that testimony that can be accurately characterized as painting all Viet Nam Veterans as criminals.

donguillermo why do you spell Vietnam.... Viet Nam??? Can you give me proof that it is spelled Viet Nam and not Vietnam? What units in the Corps did you serve with in 1968? Look back at my earlier post for units I was in during the war, we could have been in the same units brother, let me know.

Hooah