Black boxes for vehicles to be compulsory by next month

I think a lot of people are missing the main point here. This isn't necessarily something that's going to be required in the car you drive now. But think of it as a requirement for cars off the production line in a few years to come.

Those that don;t think this is even a possibly are surely not denying ignorance as TPTB definitely have the cards to pull to make this happen in the auto industry. Even the bailouts just add more leverage for this type of thing to be imposed.

This sucks....not sure when and how this is coming but it's something we should all keep an eye on.

S+F

Originally posted by Smell The Roses
I think a lot of people are missing the main point here. This isn't necessarily something that's going to be required in the car you drive now.

That's my interpretation too. If you have an older car that was manufactured without it, you're off the hook.

But think of it as a requirement for cars off the production line in a few years to come.

Yes but the only problem I have with that interpretation is, it looks to me like almost every car currently being made already has it even though it hasn't been officially mandated until now. So I don't see the "years to come" part. It's already there, in new cars being sold today, isn't it?

Yeah man that was my point though...not in the cars you all have now but the ones you will buy new later.....

It took me 15 seconds to find out this article was BS. Have any of you guys heard of Google - it's the bees knees for getting answers.

BTW there has been some version or other of a BlackBox in cars for a long time now. Fuel injected cars are monitoring a lot of that type of information already. You know those things that tell you the instantaneous gas mileage -- yep its watching that data.

Back to the Sky is falling thread

I got this from a Google search;


rumors.automobilemag.com...

Update: Automotive Black Box Mandate? NHTSA Continues to Speculate
Karla Sanchez on May 25 2011 1:00 PM

"Wired is now reporting the NHTSA at this point, is still only ‘considering’ mandating black boxes".

Will all vehicles be forced to adopt so-called black boxes, potentially allowing data pertaining to your driving to be recorded for later inspection? A report from Wired reveals the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will rule on the suggestion next week.

Black boxes have provided valuable information in the event of plane crashes, and when installed in vehicles, can do the same in the event of a collision. Vehicles equipped with recording devices are not entirely new: GM has been voluntarily installing the recorders in its cars since 1990. Vehicle telemetry, such as speed traveled and driver inputs, are typically recorded, which help to provide a so-called “snapshot” of the final moments before an accident.

This type of information can subsequently be viewed by law enforcement officers, insurance companies, and automakers alike to ascertain the cause of a collision. This doesn’t sit well with many consumers, who feel access to such data essentially violates their privacy. Another point of concern lies with how to accessing that data. Will there be a universal format or connection (like OBD-II)? Will there be a procedure for archival? Who is allowed to access that data, and will that data remain secure?

While some view automotive black boxes as Big Brother effectively calling shotgun, some suggest the devices would be helpful in providing insight to automakers on whether vehicle systems or driver error contributed to an accident. For example, in the case of Toyota’s acceleration mess, investigators could look directly at vehicle inputs to determine what occurred in each case. If driver fault is ruled out, automakers believe the data collected can allow them to quickly address the problem and — if needed — issue recalls in a timely fashion.

For now, the debate continues. What do you think? Is a black box in your car no big deal, or is such a system encroaching upon your personal privacy? What provisions would need to be adopted in order for you to accept a data logger riding along in your vehicle?

Source: Wired


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I work for Toyota as a Technician, this Idea about Black Boxes was brought up when Toyota was having it's recent trouble with clams that accelerator pedals in their cars were sticking, and then people starting saying it was the electronics that were at fault, neither was the truth, and the US Government came out and said it.

As for the black boxes, they are read through the same interface that you would use to find out why your check engine light came on, these black boxes are completely integrated into the computer system of the vehicle, (they are wired in to other components through the ECM, Elctronic Control Module).

It would be a complete nightmare to start installing these black boxes in older cars, if anything, they will make the car manufacturers install them in every new car they make, and integrate them with the multitude of other safety systems that are already on their cars.



Peace

Does anyone know what company is making the black boxes?

Originally posted by spyder550
It took me 15 seconds to find out this article was BS. Have any of you guys heard of Google - it's the bees knees for getting answers.

It took me even less. I just saw it was from the telegraph.uk.

That thing is one of the worst rags out there. Seriously.

reply to post by WatchRider


That would be because its not an accurate report at all. Its still under review and would require them to be installed on new cars. They cant force people to purchase and install them on cars they already own.

They also need to develop standards that are accpeted by the industry in terms of what infomration would be recorded and who can access that info and when.

There would also be a challenge on 5th amendment grounds, in addition to possible 4th amendment complications.

Translation = still in the works.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Indeed it's still an oncoming threat but more a reason than ever to pressure your appointed / elected leaders to kick up a fuss in congress...

There have already been black boxes in moderate to high line vehicles for quite some time now.

I even made a comment years ago about why didn't they retrieve the information from the black boxes of cars in teh basement of the World Trade Towers. That would prove if there was a prior explosion to the planes or not.

But the information is expensive to retrieve, and is typically only done in cases of death or high cost by the insurance companies.

Just like all information isn't retrieved from every airplane, it is not going to be retrieved from every car.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Cars made in the 90's are still considered newish to me

I have never owned a new car all used. My oldest now is a 2000 my newest is a 2003. Not sure though if you checked any of my links or even quotes but some have had this means since 1974. So yes not all are newish but many are in my terms

You kow potatoe - potato type of thing.


Raist

reply to post by nixie_nox


People also ignore the fact that onstar keeps track of what the black boxes do also. Why are black boxes scary and onstar is not?

I was looking under my front seat this afternoon before reading this post .I'm going to installed some heated elements for heated seats, but for the life of me I could not figure out what all the other wires where for. I even took out my fluke meter to get a trace on them. Pulled out my tech manual and it says it's a sensor the manual states not to install heated elements near the sensor. So I'm wondering what sensor has 8 -9 wires ? what it for ? Well the Op's post explained it to me in very clear terms. The tech manual does not elaborate on this or even tell you what the sensor does. My tech manual is an official GM manual that the dealerships use.

So now what if you crash due to a manufacture defect recall It has happened . Does the recorder get erased ? ('')

So now I know how some sneaky member of congress were going to tax us for every mile we drive. I guess you just upgrade the on-board black box with some slight programming. I guess all that has to be done to complete this is fit the gas stations with readers to read the black box when you filling up.('')

I notice the boxes are only on American cars not foreign. You Toyota Honda people are lucky.

My next thought , So this is why we really bailed out American car manufactures, using our own tax payer money to spy on us.

reply to post by SJE98


Read my post on the first page. As of a few years ago over 60 million models of vehicles have them in them already. Those include Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, and more.

It was even in the quote on the first page. This has been in most of them for some time in the same post I give links saying some have had it since 1974. No one is spying on anyone it is being overly hyped up for something already in effect in most vehicles on the street today.

The most information kept is the last few seconds. It records continuously but on a loop, meaning it records over itself. The information recorded is braking, acceleration, and possibly steering. They are not recording sound or even tracking your whereabouts (unless you have onstar or a cell phone). The only way this information will be used is if there is a very bad crash and the insurance agencies get involved or if you claim it was due to mechanical failure, in which case it will be investigated.

Again read the post on page on. It is filled with very informative information. People on ATS are freaking out before knowing the facts as usual it seems.


Raist

reply to post by SJE98


Those sensors are more then likely for the airbags and seat belts.

reply to post by SJE98


Here to make even a little easier for you here is some more information on the device itself.

en.wikipedia.org...

Because EDRs are not currently required by law, usage of the device varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer. General Motors and Ford implement the technology on most of their recent models, while Mercedes-Benz and Audi do not use EDRs at all. As of 2003, there were at least 40 million vehicles equipped with the devices.[2] In the UK many police and emergency service vehicles are fitted with a more accurate and detailed version that is produced by one of several independent companies. Both the Metropolitan police and the City of London police are long-term users of EDR's and have used the data recovered after an incident to convict both police officers and members of the public.
Downloading an airbag module in most vehicles is best accomplished by connecting the appropriate scanning tool to the Diagnostic Link Connector (DLC) usually found under the vehicle's dashboard near the driver's knees. The photo to the right shows a DLC download in progress. Alternately, some modules can be downloaded "on the bench" after removal from the vehicle, as shown to the left.
The only system, capable of downloading commercially available crash data in North America, is Bosch Diagnostic's Crash Data Retrieval

Even the article itself is misleading calling them a "black box" when really they are EDRs. However, I will give them the error because a common slang term for the devices are "black boxes". Despite the error here is a bit of information on describing the difference.

www.harristechnical.com...&A.htm

What is the difference between an EDR and a "black box"?

"EDR" is the term NHTSA has coined to refer to the device commonly installed on motor vehicles to record vehicle technical data for a brief period of time in the event of an accident. In contrast, airplanes, trains and ships use sophisticated recording devices, commonly called black boxes, that record data continuously throughout the operation of the vehicle. They capture much more data than EDRs and, in some cases, can record sound. In commercial aircraft, these are "Flight Data Recorders" and "Cockpit Voice Recorders." An EDR is also referred to variously as a "Motor Vehicle Event Data Recorder (MVEDR)" and "Crash Data Recorder (CDR)."

www.crashforensics.com...

Different EDR's have different capabilities in what they store. Most passenger vehicle EDR's have the capability of recording the measured deceleration from the crash. Other systems can store up to 5 seconds of pre-crash data including vehicle speed, engine RPM's, percent throttle, brake light switch position, and seat belt switch position.

media.mgnetwork.com...



www.detnews.com...

The U.S. Transportation Department said today it will propose making vehicle "black boxes" mandatory in all vehicles by the end of the year.
The department's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has long considered whether to make black boxes, officially called event data recorders, or EDRs, mandatory. They collect data about the seconds leading up to a crash and can help investigators determine the cause.

Again they are not true "black boxes" in the sense of those used in aircraft. They are different devices.


www.egmcartech.com...

The purpose of the EDR is to record information leading up to an accident, which is meant to assist in determining the cause. GM, Ford Motor Co., Toyota Motor Corp, and Mazda Motor Co. already have the boxes installed on all their vehicles. In 2005, over half the cars released had EDRs on them. Each automaker has set its own specific set of criteria.

www.collisiondataservices.com...

When will the EDR unit record data?

For most late model vehicles, data is recorded beginning about 5 to 25 seconds prior to an event or impact that causes the vehicle to experience a change of velocity that exceeds a threshold significant enough to alert the airbag module of the vehicle.

What data is recorded on the EDR unit?

At this time the data that is recorded varies depending on the vehicle manufacturer, make, model and model year. In general it may record data elements like vehicle speed, engine speed (in RPMs), percent throttle, braking status, longitudinal or forward post crash velocity changes, and seat belt usage. By 2011, all vehicles being sold in the United States that collect EDR data, (most models by 2010) will be mandated under federal law to have EDR units that are available for public retrieval, and that are mandated to record a minimum of 15 data elements specified under the law, including those stated above, in events detected by the airbag module, under a standard event detection threshold.

It is amazing that people are so ill informed about their vehicles or even information in general.

Raist

Adding more links for your research into the topic, please reference my post in this other thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Several links from the NHTSA about the Event Data Recorders.