America Spoken of In Revelations

To understand Revelation (notice, no "s" at the end), you need more than just the ability to read the words. An understanding of Jewish history is needed. Guidance from the Holy Spirit, the One who has ensured what you think we should all assume as fact indeed did not happen.

Understanding from Bible study what is to be literal and what is not makes it less confounding.

Divine Prophesy, as in Revelation, is God taking the person (John) in the spirit and showing him the future, or maybe as in David's case, the King had the dream and David translated it for him as God had already given him the answer, or maybe a vision from God, or maybe God talking directly to the prophet. At any rate, if it is Divine in nature, it is not from the Father of Lies. Caution is advised about calling works of the Holy Spirit demonic, as you can blaspheme the Father of the Son, but blaspheming the Spirit, well, that's the unpardonable sin and that is a baaaad thing!

Revelation isn't that tough, but it is impossible without the Holy Spirit.

TC had a feelin it would be you who replied. Understand I`m not christian and do not have the benefit of "Understanding from Bible study" that you seem to. I only have the benefit of history and (now I know I`ll come in for flack) my intelligence to get meanings from things. So many things do not tie up with religion unless one has faith and I guess this is the difference between you and me. You have your faith in God and I would have mine in humans if they could be trusted.

Humans will make Revelation true due to their destructive nature.

TC as you have a better reading and knowledge of revelation than myself, can you explain why GOd wishes to cause such destruction and suffering at the end of days? Surely if he is the omnipotent God everyone thinks he is (sorry for putting the gender in to the almighty) and has all the means and resources of an omnipotent being why is this necessary?

You also state that it IS a holy book, divine in some manner. Surely it is closer to the ravings of a half drawn man. Nostradamus also made prophecy, as have many others, why are these not divinely inspired as well?

"Caution is advised about calling works of the Holy Spirit demonic, as you can blaspheme the Father of the Son, but blaspheming the Spirit, well, that's the unpardonable sin and that is a baaaad thing!"

You did n`t really answer the question though did you.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Revelation isn't that tough, but it is impossible without the Holy Spirit.

This is something we both wholeheartedly agree upon. I was saved when I was 12, and then years later began to see a pattern arise in the bible that seemed to speak of America as the great Satan. I always believed it was God warning me of the danger I was in, how this country that claims to be �of� God is actually �without� God.

Don't get me wrong, I feel that America was, at one time, a country that was so close to God that we were the only country worthy of speaking his name. However, thanks in part to the sexual revolution, the birth control pill, and the racist society that pervades America still to this day, calling America a "Nation Under God" is much like calling Soccer a gentleman's sport.

America is corrupt, and most of it's current population is corrupt as well. One thing I have noticed about French Culture is that they are more interested in pursuits of the mind and of self, rather then religion or war. Some claim this is the reason why they are not to be taken seriously.

However, I think they are instead the reasons why France is perhaps the most beautiful nation of all. The fact that my mother was French has nothing to do with this observation either.

As for me putting an �S� on the end of Revelation, I hardly think getting into a semantics debate at this point will prove worthwhile for either of our arguments. Though, if you continue, I will be inclined to believe your ranting is merely the by-product of a moderator who was proven wrong within the safe confines of his own web board.

�Lest ye be partakers in her sins.�


[Edited on 28-3-2003 by Kai-Raega]

France has led the way in secular humanism and the pursuit of the flesh, but the U.S.'s culture is in hot pursuit, as we've been so fast on everything else in history. A major contributor to the decline of our societal fabric is the idiot box in every house. The public comes home and hands their collective brain to those in control of T.V. programming every night.

As far as as the "s" that does not exist at the end of Revelation, it is not symantics, it is merely a letter that is not there, and this poster is not wrong, and the fact that I am a moderator has nothing to do with it.

Never fear, saved brother, the moral decay of this nation as well as yours is happening but nothing goes without God's knowledge. The U.S. isn't Babylon (that has never been used for anything but the specific city, and the U.S. is a nation) and it won't be, in my opinion, any kind of major player in the end-time. Most Americans can't seem to fathom that, not so much from arrogance but because we are the superpower of today. As you pointed out in another way, we were a great nation long before we were a superpower, kind of like induction. But as when the current is taken away, the induction ebbs away, as our moral greatness is going away, our super-position will leave as well. How it finally ends is anybody's guess, but I wonder if the current events aren't the beginning.

Revelation has nothing to do with modern times......It is a code or symbolic language to give the people of that time who were not allowed to talk about such things. Christians that is. Now, plz people do some research before posting thearys about revelation when you know nothing about it's True meaning....thank you. No offense but this is getting annoying. Btw: The beast is not Satan, it is a symbol of the anti-christian leaders at the time...the horns and such....(example of symbolism)

Wrong, it is as John claimed it to be, him being taken in the spirit to see the Future (our near future).

Plz, don't talk about that which you don't understand. Its getting annoying.

The thing that bothers me the most about this whole thread is that, unless someone can show me a *direct indication* that USA is *explicitly mentioned* in the scriptures, all you're doing is promoting an *interpretation* or *conjecture* with no facts to back it up.

This thread sounds like an infomercial

alot of good arugments but illmatic 67 was right rome is bablyon it is the only city to sit on 7 hills

I think this article shall be interesting to all that are interested.

Why This War May
Lead To Armageddon
By Ian Gurney
3-31-3

In my book "The Cassandra Prophecy" originally published in June 1999, I interpret the prophecies contained in the Book of Revelation as pointing to a war started by three leaders, one from America, one from Europe and one from the world of Islam, which becomes nuclear and precipitates World War III and Armageddon. I also say that the starting date for this war is 2003: "The intention of these three leaders is made with precise clarity.....The American, European and Muslim leaders will draw the world into its final conflict.....the Great Subterranean Passage of the Pyramid of Cheops enters the "Pit of Destruction" in 2003.....It points to a major world wide calamity at the beginning of the new millennium." (extracted from "The Cassandra Prophecy".)

So, with George W Bush and Tony Blair emphasizing their Christian values as they go to war against Iraq, proclaiming "God is on our side" to a sceptical world, the majority of whom appear to be protesting this pre-emptive strike, it seems both leaders would do well to read The Bible a little more carefully. In particular, perhaps they should read and understand what the Book of Revelation has to say about Armageddon and its beginnings.

To do this, first you have to put yourself in the position of St. John the Divine, who received the Revelation around 70 AD on the Greek island of Patmos. Imagine someone living at that time receiving visions of the world in the twentieth and twenty first century. Knowing the importance of the message he has been given, John must describe what he has seen. However, to describe events he has no comprehension of at that time, he uses similes and metaphors applicable to his own time to convey the visions of times to come. Those who seek to interpret Revelation must do likewise and place themselves in St. John's shoes in order to understand the full meaning of the "end time" events that lead the world to its final conflict.

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 13. verse 1

In the first part of this verse John sees a beast rising up out of the sea, and from this description it appears John is trying to indicate that the beast is a land mass rising up out of the sea. But what of the seven heads and the ten horns. In Revelation chapter 17 John once again sees the beast in a vision.

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17. verse 3.

John himself marvels at this vision, and is then given the translation of the vision further on in the same chapter.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Revelation 17. verse 9.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no Kingdom as yet; but receive power as Kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 17. verse 12.

What John has seen is a land mass with at its centre, seven mountains, and within this land mass ten kings or kingdoms that are in league with the beast, or the land mass itself. A further description follows:

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13. verse 2.

Here John, in an incredibly succinct and graphic way, is showing us the form and nature of this land mass he sees rising from the sea, and even uses terminology which brings the description into the 20th Century.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death, and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13. verse 3.

Here, John brings his description of the beast firmly into the latter half of the 20th Century. In verse 2 of Revelation 13, John is describing the land of Greater Europe. The leopard has always been the beast associated with greater Germany, and here John tells us that the beast, this great land mass is like a leopard, but has the feet of a bear. The bear has always been Russia, and if one takes a map of greater Europe and turns it sideways, it can be seen that the within the body of Europe, the leopard is greater Germany, the feet Russia, and looking to the head of the beast, John describes its mouth as the mouth of a lion. The lion is of course, the symbol of Great Britain. It is almost as if John has seen a map of greater Europe, and has then described the parameters of this huge land mass in 20th Century terms.

More clues emerge with the description of the seven heads. John is told these seven heads are seven mountains upon which a woman sits, but who or what is this woman. The answer is given in Revelation Chapter 17.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 17. verse 18.

So we now know that this great beast, this European land mass, has at its centre a city that sits on seven mountains. There is only one city in the world that this can be, and as every school child is told, Rome the Eternal City, is built on seven hills.

We have now not only identified the beast as being greater Europe, but have also established Rome as its head, its centre, its power base. So what of the ten horns on the beast. We are told in Revelation 17 verse 12 that these ten horns are ten kings, and these ten kings will receive "power as kings one hour with the beast". What John is describing here is a confederacy of ten countries, who will receive power under the authority of Rome.

On May 3rd 1948, the Council of Europe was established in London. The conference was attended by the Ten countries of Europe. On January 1st 1958, the European Economic Community or Common Market came into force. This European confederacy was established under the "Treaty of Rome".

The final clue is given in verse 3 of Revelation 13 when John describes one of the heads or countries of the beast, "wounded to death, and his deadly wound was healed." Here, John brings us to 1989 and what must be one of the most significant events of the last century. After defeat at the end of World War II, Germany already economically, structurally and morally crippled suffered a further mortal wound to its ideology, as Germany was split into East and West. Since the 13th August 1961 the Berlin Wall had been a symbol of the Cold War, Communism versus Capitalism, East versus West, Christianity versus Atheism, the division of Germany,s capital city symbolising the division of Europe, with Germany having been "wounded to death."

However, the dramatic and unprecedented events of 1989 were to sensationally heal this "deadly wound" when, on the 9th November East Germany opened all its borders to the West. Within 24 hours the Berlin Wall was being demolished and communism was collapsing. The world stared on in wonder and amazement.

Having established that John is referring to Greater Europe in the previous verses, we then look at the next vision that is presented to him in the same context.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth: and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 13. verse 11.

Here John sees another land mass coming out of the earth, but in the description of the beast as having "two horns like a lamb" he is telling us that this land mass or country is young like a lamb, a new country. The words "and he spake like a dragon" signify the authority, power and dominance of this land mass. What John is describing here is, without doubt, the United States of America. America's huge influence over Europe and the rest of the world is detailed in the next verse.

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13. verse 12.

The enormous might and power of America, as displayed in World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War 1, Afghanistan and now in Iraq is described here, together with the enormous support America has given to Europe since the defeat of Germany in 1945. The next verse refers to the huge power of America,s armoury and its ability to be all powerful with its nuclear and technological weapons.

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on earth in the sight of men.

Revelation 13. verse 13.

This verse in particular refers not only to the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but to the immense arsenal of nuclear weapons, cruise missiles, daisy cutters and armoury at America,s disposal; and let us not forget that so far, only the United States has used a nuclear weapon in anger.

So now we have ascertained that John, in his visions, has witnessed the rise of Europe and America and the power and dominance of these two continents at the beginning of the twenty first century. What happens next and the part that Europe and America play in the "end times" is graphically described by John in the sixteenth chapter of Revelation, whilst discussing the last seven plagues.

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Revelation 16. verse 12

This, the penultimate plague, starts by immediately identifying not only the area, but the geographical feature that will be affected. The river Euphrates runs through what was once Mesopotamia, the supposed site of the Garden of Eden. It is the largest river in South West Asia, rising in the foothills of north east Turkey fairly near Mount Ararat. It then flows almost 3,000 kilometres south through Turkey, Syria and Iraq, finally disgorging itself into the Gulf through the Shatt-al Arab waterway.

Since the end of the first Gulf War, Iraq has embarked on a campaign of violence against the southern Marsh Arabs that has involved the draining, drying up and reclaimation of the marshes in the Euphrates basin in south west Iraq. Saddam Hussein is already fulfilling the prophecy of Revelation, preparing the way for the "Kings of the East".

Who these kings of the east are can only be surmised at, but events over the last few years seem to point in only one direction. The Euphrates runs through Iraq, and to the east is the old Persian empire, now modern day Iran. Further east still, brings us to Afghanistan and Pakistan and onwards over the Himalayas to China. In the last few years we have seen the steady rise of fundamental Islam extremism in the countries to the east of the Euphrates. True, many of these fundamentalists are in opposition to other Muslim groups within their countries, but there is one thing that more than anything else unites every Muslim under Islam. It is the belief that the West, America and Europe, together with Christianity and Judaism have for hundreds of years oppressed Islam. This perception has been so strongly reinforced during the events of the last thirty years, and particularly since September 11th. 2001, that many Muslims now see a Jihad, or Holy War, against the West as an inevitability. Could it

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Revelation 16. verse 13

Once again, in a verse still associated with the sixth plague John sees the rise of three personalities from the Dragon, America; The Beast, Europe; and the false prophet. This is the first time the false prophet is mentioned, but as it would appear to be connected with verse 12 and the drying up of the Euphrates, it seems that John sees the rise of three great leaders, one from America, one from Europe and one from the world of Islam. Remember that John, although a believer in Christ, was born a Jew and as such would have considered any other religion or prophet claiming a covenant with God to be a "false prophet." I say this not as an insult to Islam, but to explain how John would have described the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and the Islamic faith. So, who are these three great leaders? It doesn't take much imagination in light of current events to identify them. The situation the world now faces involves three players, George W Bush, the American; Tony Blair, the European; and of course Sadda

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 16. verse 14

The intention of these three leaders is made with precise clarity. Bush, Blair and Hussein will draw the world into its final conflict, a Holy War, a Jihad.

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 16. verse 16

Whether you believe The Bible or not, the descriptions contained in the Book of Revelation do seem to have remarkable parallels with events that are happening at this very moment. Frighteningly, perhaps Blair and Bush, encouraged by their religious convictions, recognise themselves in the Revelation, and in their Christian zeal are rushing to play their part in fulfilling God's will, believing they will "prevail".

I have quoted Blaise Pascal, the 17th Century French mathematician, philosopher and theologian before, but his thoughts are worth repeating: "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."

Perhaps we should be afraid, very afraid, of what comes next.

�Copyright Ian Gurney 2003. This article includes extracts from "The Cassandra Prophecy-Armageddon Approaches" (www.caspro.com) and can be reproduced or redistributed with this information.

Excuse me but Saddam Hussein claims direct dependency to Babylonian kings, the same ones who threatened Jews in the bible. He tried to rebuild Babylon as well as is the countries main newspaper called Babel (run by his son).

What do you need for God to come down from heaven and point at Iraq

While I usually do not get involved in these sort of discussions it seem obvious. That if ones want to find a contemporary Antichrist it would be either Saddam Hussein his son (the younger one) or Osama bin laden.

As far as seven kings well take a look the Arab nations. Today one this planet they behave more than kings than any other leader

Well, it's a good job that the Good Book isn't under copyright.
I can't help thinking that the very first assertion was the start of the trouble. We are told that "bird" is some sort of "subtle" allusion to America.
Is it? The word is definitely "bird" ("orneou", genitive of "orneon" as in "ornithology"); but why should this be taken as a reference to "eagle".
There's a perfectly good Greek word for "eagle": "aetos" and John himself has already used it at 4:7 to name one of the beasts.
If he meant "eagle" he'd have said "eagle". Besides: the Russians have an eagle.

Has anyone ever stopped to consider the possibility that in the case of Gog and Magog, that it is LITERALLY TRUE?

Gog and Magog also turn up in the ancient Wicca religion as demi-gods worshipped with regard to battle. The last person to take them on was Julius Caesar in 43 BC.

This would seem to be a long dead religion, but wait....what is this I heard? About Tony Blair, his flunkies and his pal Bush? Could this be a propheciy of a future UK and US under the martial law of a New World Order under a bunch of New Age zealots, praying to Gog and Magog before they send their troops into battle to die like cattle?

Islam is going to be a major player in the final days, as well as a demonic/fallen angel attack under the quise of "aliens" from another planet.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Islam is going to be a major player in the final days, as well as a demonic/fallen angel attack under the quise of "aliens" from another planet.

well, that's an intersting theory there
but exactly how is islam going to be a major player?
and how are "demonic/fallen angels" going to attack under the guise of aliens?

Originally posted by somethingelse
... Could this be a propheciy of a future UK and US under the martial law of a New World Order under a bunch of New Age zealots, praying to Gog and Magog ...

is America spoken of in Revelations>is America=Babylon?

America might be mentioned, as it may be part of that army of 'many peoples' which is lead by/known as; GoG, (in the land(s) of Magog)

how could this be you ask!?,.. because the USA is supposed to be the champion of the oppressed and helper to the poor and the weak, a 'Good Samaratan' nation.

I say, Look into the marked 'distance' between the american people and the US geo-political-military juggernaut...two different animals!

Consider the U.S."Embassy" fortress/compound nearing completion in the provence where the ancient city of Babylons ruins are in Iraq! (where the political war-machine brought the U.S.A people into invasion)
I'd suggest that the geo-political-militaristic U.S. will be part of that Gog-Magog army of the apocalyptic scriptures,, and associated with 'Babylon', but not 'Babylon' per se.

I'd also suggest that there is a esorteric & spiritualistic tie-in/interplay with the end-time 'Babylon' the Bible warns of.
In that the Talmud following Jews being distinct and apart from the Torah following Jews...the Talmud came into being from the times the Jews and the northern kingdom Tribes were taken into captivity into 'Babylon'..........i could be misinformed in my conclusion, but i'm still willing to put that thought out there.

youse guys process that combination of things eschatologically and see if that model fits with the scriptures being 'unsealed' and revelations only coming at the end-times era.

~~~~~~~~~~

earlier in the 2 pages of replies, i seen where someone with 'eyes wide open' realizes that the 'Bear' in Daniel isn't the USSR or Russia,
as the 'Late Great Planet Earth' myth got most everyone to think was true.

there's a lot of twist & turns in the next decades, so one's current interpetation of scripture to fit today's geo-political scene,
will seem far fetched and absurd in hindsight.
[today, a Shock-&-Awe preemptive strike on Iran seems likely, huh?]

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Rome (Vatican City) is the Babylon of the Apocolypse.

It even says so in that very book, the whore sits between 7 hills. Well, Rome was literally a city founded upon 7 hills.

Rome is probably the richest city in the world, but we don't perceive it to be. The pope is filthy rich too.

The crusades was an campaign for Christians to get the Holy Land because the pope wanted to rule from Jerusalem, not Rome. This is exactly what is happening today. America is only preparing the way so the Pope, whoever that may be, can sit in the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem and proclaim himself to be God himself.

Some of these posts in this thread are very long and I haven't (yet) taken the time to read all of them....but I also happen to believe that the Vatican definatly fits the description of the mystery Babylon. Satans primary targets would be world politics and the church[s] (Catholic AND protestant).
The Bible also states that the beast will eventually cause the "abomination of desolation" in what was once called the holy temple. Some might think that the temple is the body of Christ (or the collective mass of believers) but check this out....if indeed the "temple" is the dome of the rock in Jerusalem then the nation of Islam could be the precurser of the rising of the beast.
I don't know if anyone here has actually been to Israel, but most Christians who walk into the dome of the rock do not notice (or can't read arabic) the writtings obove the entrance which read "there is no God but one God." and "Jesus is not the son of God...but only a prophet" Well...I don't remember what it says word for word (you can google it) but it does mean the same thing.
That sounds like the abomination that causes desolation if you ask me. Not to mention that it is also sounds like hardcore blasphemy.

"Israel will escape by the wings of an EAGLE." Who is that "eagle"? The United States, nonetheless. This talk about America being the revised Babylon is bull#!!

[edit on 26-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Kai-Raega
An example of these plagues that befall the unclean of this nation would be AIDs. Those who live the opulent life that America rewards people for wanting will be stricken with plagues of their own. In other words: Be wary, and keep the moral high ground at all times.)

You're kidding, right?
The moral high ground?
Would that be the judge's seat, perhaps?
Are YOU the judge?

That for every war our country instigates, we must create a war of our own against her. The million man march, anti-war protests�these are the best examples I can give.

But still, DIVISION is division. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

In a way, this validates every protest or march the activists have done so far, and somewhat frighteningly, might also validate terrorist attacks against America, although you would not catch me doing such a thing.

Are you not doing that very thing with this post?

and now a horrible war on the horizon.

Behind us! Many! Look ahead, not back.

This much is incredibly obvious. America will be judged.

Again, i ask - WHO is doing the judging?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
"Israel will escape by the wings of an EAGLE." Who is that "eagle"? The United States, nonetheless. This talk about America being the revised Babylon is bull#!!

[edit on 26-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

I finally found something I can agree with you on Speaker.

America is not Babylon
The Babylon of Revelation is Vatican City. It sits on seven hills,dresses in purple and scarlet and uses a gold cup among other things. America or New York City does none of these.

The Babylon of the book of Jeremiah is modern day Iraq.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 are being fulfilled right now. You will also see this fulfillment in Isaiah 13. The United States can be found in prophecy as one of the nations that judges Babylon which is Iraq.