Dear "agnostics": You're atheists, get over it.

How about...:

"Dear atheists and monoidolaters (those who believe in a single anthropomorphic deity): You're agnostic (meaning not-Gnostic)."

Gnosis

(Greek γνώσις) Knowledge.

"The word Gnosis refers to the knowledge we acquire through our own experience, as opposed to knowledge that we are told or believe in. Gnosis - by whatever name in history or culture - is conscious, experiential knowledge, not merely intellectual or conceptual knowledge, belief, or theory. This term is synonymous with the Hebrew "Daath" and the Sanskrit "jna."

"The tradition that embodies the core wisdom or knowledge of humanity.

"Gnosis is the flame from which all religions sprouted, because in its depth Gnosis is religion. The word “religion” comes from the Latin word “religare,” which implies “to link the Soul to God”; so Gnosis is the very pure flame from where all religions sprout, because Gnosis is Knowledge, Gnosis is Wisdom." - Samael Aun Weor, The Esoteric Path

"The secret science of the Sufis and of the Whirling Dervishes is within Gnosis. The secret doctrine of Buddhism and of Taoism is within Gnosis. The sacred magic of the Nordics is within Gnosis. The wisdom of Hermes, Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed and Quetzalcoatl, etc., etc., is within Gnosis. Gnosis is the Doctrine of Christ." - Samael Aun Weor, The Revolution of Beelzebub

The Revolution of the Dialectic, Written by Samael Aun Weor

"Monotheism always leads to anthropomorphism (idolatry), which by reaction originates materialistic atheism. This is why we prefer polytheism.

"We are not afraid to talk about the intelligent principles of the mechanical phenomena of nature, even if people classify us as pagans.

"We are partisans of a modern polytheism founded on Psychotronics.

"In final synthesis, monotheistic doctrines lead to idolatry. It is preferable to talk about intelligent principles, which never leads to materialism.

"In turn, the abuse of polytheism, by reaction, leads to monotheism.

"Modern monotheism emerged from the abuse of polytheism.

"In this era of Aquarius, in this new phase of the revolution of the dialectic, polytheism must be psychologically and transcendentally sketched out. Besides, it must be put forward intelligently; we must set forth wisely with a vital and integral monistic polytheism.

"Monistic polytheism is the synthesis of polytheism and monotheism. Diversity is unity."

Gnostics are Monistic-Polytheists, who understand that All is from and interconnected by the Alaya (Kunzhi) or Absolute Abstract Space (See: Ain Soph).

Actually most agnostics I know INCLUDING MYSELF do believe there is some sort of divine power out there.... We just don't know what it is!

I am unsure where this whole spirit of doubt BS came into agnosticism because that is not what I or any of the other true agnostics I know feel.

As an agnostic I personally feel that when you look at the world and some of the neat little wink wink nudge nudge synchronicities the world has to offer it can't be a coincidence!

To me all the beauty and the wonder of this world and the way every answer brings about a dozen new questions speaks to some sort of guiding force behind our universe that wants us to be curious and wants us to challenge ourselves.

Now where I step away from organized religion and what MAKES ME AN AGNOSTIC is that I don't PRESUME to think I could know the mind of what or whoever is responsible for this amazing universe we live in! I truly believe that if people started seeing those that claim to know the mind and will of god for the PSYCHOPATHS they are we could be on the road to recovery and a better world for humanity!

Those that feel they have to "humanize" god. They do this soley for the reason that in the process of this humanization they can fraudulently take upon themselves some small portion of the power of the god they claim to know the mind of. And in doing this they make those that think the big thoughts and ask the big questions feel like they have met someone who can give them the answers they could never come to themselves! This creates a deep seated respect and willingness to follow for if this person can be SO CERTAIN about the mind of god they OBVIOUSLY have some special understanding that others lack!

Now if one were to study social engineering and basic psychology of psychopaths and narcissists you will find that these SAME characteristics when exhibited in the business world are sure signs of a SCAM or confidence game!

So why is it that these EXACT SAME qualities when we see them exhibited by the men and women that stand up in front of us on Sunday mornings. When they tell us what god WANTS YOU TO DO or FEEL or THINK why is it any LESS of a sign of ill will, ill intent, or just plain taking advantage?

These things are why I'm an agnostic! Not because I don't believe in god or some other stupid thing that others want to project on me! I am an agnostic for the same reason I'm not a republican OR a democrat I think the options I'm given SUCK and all lead to the path of ruin not some fictional salvation.

Or as a T shirt I saw the other day so succinctly put it:

Worship me only and do exactly as I say or I'll torture you with fire FOREVER!

Sincerely, GOD

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Dear id10t,

I suggest that you visit a dictionary before you make another HIGHLY IGNORANT statement like the one you used for a title in this thread. An atheist believes there is no God, an agnostic is not sure. And yes Virginia, there are agnostics out there! I was one for the better part of a decade before I came to the conclusion that there is indeed a 'Higher Power'... The world is not Black and White, like you seem to think it is. Pull your head out of the sand, and get over yourself. You are not the end all and be all of what people are... that is up to the individual to decide for themselves...

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


S+F

Before this has to be explained again:-

Agnosticism/Gnosticism - What you know
Atheism/Theism - What you believe.

Some might call a "stale mate" between the Theist and the Atheist due to the lack of evidence. But remember which party is forming the positive theory without evidence.

The Atheist only responds to the claim with "where's your evidence? None? I don't believe that"

Of course, we could similarly propose there is no God, but that would be just as untrustworthy and presumptious as the Theist!

I agree with you whole-heartedly - Agnostics have taken the first step; acknowledging what we actually know and understand, now they just have to admit they disagree with the positive assertion of the Theist, on the basis of lack of evidence.

Rubbish.

That is all.

The Agnostic Theists are going to be very perplexed to hear this news.

Gnosis (Knowledge)
Theism (Belief)

Agnostic Atheist* - Does not KNOW, but BELIEVES there is NO God.

Agnostic Theist - Does not KNOW, but BELIEVES there IS a God.

Gnostic Atheist - KNOWS, and BELIEVES there is NO God.

Gnostic Theist - KNOWS, and BELIEVES there IS a God

* That's me.

(Thank you awake and aware. )

reply to post by pazcat


Easy enough to understand really.

All humans are currently agnostic in regards to the source of the universe or reality, that includes Priests.

Preist states to agnostic "there is a God" the agnostic states "there is no evidence to form a belief".

Agnostic = Atheist towards all theories without "evidence" or without ultimately being able to prove said theory.

reply to post by Hawking


...and neither do I...I just also acknowledge that I don't believe. I'm actually not certain about all sorts of things. I cannot be certain of the nonexistence of (insert mythical creature that evades detection here), yet I can safely say that I do not believe it exists.



Take this as a form response to all similar exceptions. Agnosticism isn't a form of 'wisdom' and to claim so is nothing more than intellectual snobbery based on a very sophomoric understanding of philosophy.

reply to post by Arkady


Hey look, it's the idiotic statement that I knew would directly proceed the one above it.

No, atheists do not believe that there is a deity.

Agnostic atheists do not believe but do not claim to be definitively certain that there isn't a deity.
Gnostic atheists do not believe and additionally claim to be definitively certain that there isn't a deity.

reply to post by BlackStar99

Originally posted by BlackStar99
Uh, wrong. There are some of us who choose not believe any one religion, but also don't deny the possibility of some sort of god, whether that be in the pantheistic sense or not...

...I don't deny the possibility, but I see a lack of proof for any possible deity. Atheists don't deny possibilities, they merely do not believe those possibilities until further proof is furnished.

I don't call myself Atheist because I find it rather ignorant to put your whole faith in science,

*facepalm*

You're using a computer on the internet, no faith is required in science. Science is demonstrable.

And no, atheists aren't necessarily all pro-science. Atheists could be all for all sorts of other non-scientific beliefs like the idea that faeries exist. You're thinking materialism.

the same science that can't get us past our own moon

We actually could do that one. It's more a matter of resources than a matter of science.

or to the depths of our own planets oceans.

Atheists put faith in science like religious people put faith in story books

No, we really don't. I don't need faith in a process that I can demonstrate to work.

reply to post by roguetechie

Originally posted by roguetechie
Wait so because YOU say our belief is functionally equivelant to atheism WE are atheists?

...yes. Equivalence. You don't believe in deities, neither do I. That makes us both atheists. No belief in deities = atheist.

First off agnosticism is NOT a belief in no god it's far from that as a matter of a fact from every reputable definition I've read.

And neither is atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in deities.

Second... HOW DARE YOU tell us what WE believe!!! I see so much of this on ATS lately and I am SICK OF IT!!

I'm not telling you what you believe or don't believe...you are. You're giving me a position...but you're using a silly different label for it.

[quote[
Don't you DARE use the numbers of agnostics to falsely Swell the ranks of your pet cause!!!


It's not a pet cause...and it's not falsely swelling. Hell, the general message I'm trying to put out is one of cooperation and commonality, yet you're trying to be divisive.

And why haven't you presented and argument that shows that atheism and agnosticism aren't the same thing?

I found your post INSANELY offensive and your general assertions not only in poor taste but lacking any sort of redeeming intellectual value!

...ok, you find it offensive...and you find it lacking in value...why? What is lacking in intellectual value? I'm putting forth the idea that "not believing in any deity" = atheism...and that's true. And agnostics lack a belief in any deity...therefore they're atheists.

Drawing false analogs where there are none to make yourself feel superior is a petty tactic of armchair PSEUDOINTELLECTUALS.

And all you've done so far is insult me. You've brought up no arguments and you've acted incredibly offended. I'm actually giving an argument, you're hurling abuse. I wonder what that says.

reply to post by Lighterside


Hey look, it's someone who doesn't understand metaphors. Soul, consciousness, product of brain meat, whatever you want to call it.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman


reply to post by RicoMarston


Already addressed this. As has at least one other user.

This just about sums it up

This video contains swearing, so if you are easily offended don't watch



The only annoying thing is the stupid camera angles

reply to post by OverMan

Originally posted by OverMan
Epic Fail!

Imagine the colors Black, Grey and White, please.

You are trying to get us to imagine only Black and White...

There is no grey choice here. I'm not creating a false dilemma, which is what you're trying to imply. Unless you can show me that there is a third option in the question: "Do you believe in a deity?" other than "yes" or "no"

And not knowing what a deity is counts as a no...that's implicit agnostic atheism.

As if the only choice is between a MAN GOD and what science believes concerning NATURE.

...nope, that would be an entirely different issue. I'm referring to the beliefs in any deity versus not believing


Now, I'm just going to skip the rest because it's more of a series of inferences about myself than anything else.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


...well, I was referring to those self described agnostics who are not agnostic theists. The majority of those who self-describe as 'agnostic' are 'agnostic atheists'. I am fully aware that there are agnostic theists as well, and I'm happy you brought it up.

Thanks for highlighting that I skipped over a part.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Dear id10t,

Wow, an insult off the bat!

I suggest that you visit a dictionary before you make another HIGHLY IGNORANT statement like the one you used for a title in this thread.

Argument from authority much? I'm sorry, but a dictionary definition isn't a place to end an argument. My argument is in contradiction of the definition presented.

An atheist believes there is no God, an agnostic is not sure.

No, a gnostic atheist would 'believe there are no deities' (the fact that the dictionary refers to the Abrahamic monotheistic deity is telling), while an agnostic atheist doesn't believe in any deity. Not believing and believing not are incredibly different positions.

And yes Virginia, there are agnostics out there!

Only as modifiers to the term 'atheist' or 'theist'. You can be an agnostic theist and not be sure if there is a deity but actually believe in one anyway as well.

The world is not Black and White, like you seem to think it is.

Last I checked the world was in color...but certain positions are black and white. Atheist or theist is one of them. When there is a position and then there is a 'not' version of that position, then it is definitely black or white.

Granted, there could be those who are purely undecided and are still looking into things...but they still have a position internally whether or not they acknowledge it.

Pull your head out of the sand, and get over yourself. You are not the end all and be all of what people are... that is up to the individual to decide for themselves...

Look, more personal attacks!

And just like OKS I am in fact an agnostic Theist

I see things all around me that make me think there is some intelligence behind the structure of the world we live in.

And once again you go telling me what I believe.... Agnostic is in no way equivalent to atheism.

Most of the agnostics I've met think there is some guiding force behind the universe we live in they just don't care to try to quantify an intelligence so far beyond our own as to be by it's very nature UNKNOWABLE.

Not being able to accept that there are some things beyond your understanding or control is the mark of MENTAL illness not intelligence!

I love how many so called atheists cannot just let other people believe the way they want to... They feel COMPELLED to try to wheedle con or otherwise talk those around them into "seeing" that they've really been atheists all along!

It's sad and pathetic really.... I know what I believe and why I believe it and I have friends who believe much differently than I do. I can and do have conversations with these people often about faith and why they believe what they do because I have a firm belief in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding being inherently GOOD. When I converse with these people I always come away with some new insight as do they!

One of the easy to spot characteristics of a weak argument and a weak mind pushing it is that it cannot tolerate other ideas or competing concepts!! Personally while I find organized religion to be an extraordinarily easy tool for psychopaths and narcissists to use their predatory nature to exploit others, I am NOT threatened by it's existence. Even more than that though I can see that organized religion does much for many of the people involved with it!

I just wish people on this board would focus on the ISSUES not the IDEOLOGIES of this world! But go ahead and keep trying to tell me I'm atheist or what I believe or who I am.... Your arguments hold no water and are at best a GROSS GENERALIZATION that while it might apply to a VERY FEW agnostics in no way applies to ALL of us or even a MAJORITY of us.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul




This is sure to stir the fence sitters to action, unfortunately I think that action will be to further muddle the definition of atheism. People can't seem to wrap there heads around the different levels of disbelief, from the agnostic-atheist to the strong atheist to the gnostic atheist. This also leads to people who have no idea what they're talking about coming out of the wood-work (luckily for me you've already responded to them).

To be honest I don't care if some fence-sitter wants to label themselves an agnostic even when they fit the definition of atheist, as long as they don't care if I consider them an atheist.

My definitions of the terms are very simple.

Theism - Belief in god(s)
Atheism - No belief in God(s)

Gnostic - knowledge of god(s)
Agnostic - No knowledge of god(s)

Most theists and most atheists are also agnostics.

reply to post by roguetechie

Originally posted by roguetechie
And just like OKS I am in fact an agnostic Theist

So you're now honestly describing yourself. Good.

I see things all around me that make me think there is some intelligence behind the structure of the world we live in.

That's skippy for you...but that's not really a justifiable idea.

And once again you go telling me what I believe.... Agnostic is in no way equivalent to atheism.

Apparently you missed my response to OKS...I was referring to the majority of self-described 'agnostics'. They tend to be atheists who shun the title.

Most of the agnostics I've met think there is some guiding force behind the universe we live in they just don't care to try to quantify an intelligence so far beyond our own as to be by it's very nature UNKNOWABLE.

...sampling bias.

Not being able to accept that there are some things beyond your understanding or control is the mark of MENTAL illness not intelligence!

Insult, classy. There are things beyond my control...like hurricanes, stellar bodies, the orbits of moons....and there are things that are beyond my personal understanding...like particle physics. Of course, you'd rather just imply that I'm the stereotype of the 'know it all atheist'.

I love how many so called atheists cannot just let other people believe the way they want to...

I actually can let people believe what they want...I just want people to honestly describe what their position is. "Agnostic" doesn't answer the question of "Do you believe in any deity?", it's merely a position on knowledge.

They feel COMPELLED to try to wheedle con or otherwise talk those around them into "seeing" that they've really been atheists all along!

Wow, more insults. The fact that you seem to be ignoring a portion of my posts where I clearly stated that I had failed to mention that agnostic theism is a valid position is kind of obvious. I even thanks OKS and gave him a star for his post.

It's sad and pathetic really....

Even more insults.

I know what I believe and why I believe it and I have friends who believe much differently than I do.

Wow, that describes a great number of people...including myself.

I can and do have conversations with these people often about faith and why they believe what they do because I have a firm belief in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding being inherently GOOD.

Again, similar to me...except I avoid the issue around certain people because they're very touchy on the subject.

When I converse with these people I always come away with some new insight as do they!

...and yet you decided to shut down discourse with me...odd.

One of the easy to spot characteristics of a weak argument and a weak mind pushing it is that it cannot tolerate other ideas or competing concepts!!

Another easy way to spot a weak argument is a constant use of insults and attacks. You do realize that you essentially agreed with the basic point (which I admit that I could have made abundantly clearer) that 'agnostic' is not a position in and of itself, right?

I just wish people on this board would focus on the ISSUES not the IDEOLOGIES of this world! But go ahead and keep trying to tell me I'm atheist or what I believe or who I am....

I should have retitled it as 'non-theist agnostics' instead of simply 'agnostics, but that would be been a mouthful. I've already admitted the existence of agnostic theists. Sort of silly that you're attacking me on that issue.

Your arguments hold no water

...you've yet to actually address any of my arguments. You're merely stating that they hold no water. My argument is that 'agnostic' is a term that is not an answer in replacement of 'theist' or 'atheist' but merely an adjective applied to either of those words. I can't really change the title now, as I've exceeded the time frame so I can't make it "You're atheists or theists, get over it", can I?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

...well, I was referring to those self described agnostics who are not agnostic theists. The majority of those who self-describe as 'agnostic' are 'agnostic atheists'. I am fully aware that there are agnostic theists as well, and I'm happy you brought it up.

Thanks for highlighting that I skipped over a part.

That's the whole point though agnosticism and theism are not mutually exclusive to just say "Oops I forgot" is pretty weak. I actually thought you were trolling. Us Agnostic Theists deserve an apology! =)