the KIDNEY PUNCH - a fun look at a brutal weapon

I have a question for some of you fighters... off topic slightly

I used to be a hell of a gymnast - double back flips, triple twisting layouts, etc so I always know where I am in the air or tumbling around. I'm a good wrestler too.

Would grappling and tumbling, a kick upward while rolling on the ground, and stuff like that fly at all in a street fight? Or would I likely just get pounced on and pummeled like the girl in McDonalds?

I can get out of holds, but wondering how easy it is to effectively hit a person who's moving in really unexpected ways?

reply to post by Thermo Klein


Yeah that stuff works ..... sometimes. I knew some dude who was into capoeira and I saw him mess a guy up that easily had him by about a foot and 120 pounds. (My friend was 5'7" about 160lbs). I also saw him get destroyed by a dude who had him by about the same numbers.

All that shi^e is crazy and makes you look super cool but if you get caught Then its gonna be a bad day in Bosnia more than likely. I guess you just gotta keep moving and by now means get grabbed.

Trowa

reply to post by _R4t_

I'm sorry I find the "street fighter" comment laughable no disrespect but in any martial art/boxing/grappling type of community there is, go call yourself a "street fighter" and you'll have people rolling themselves on the ground laughing at you

I trained for years with guys that were trained in Arnis, Judo, Muay Thai, Ju-Jitsu, and a number of other martial arts. I also went through cloe quarters unarmed combat training when I worked in personal security. I never formally signed up to train under a particular sensei. I am not a dedicated student of one form. I could be like a lot of people and just claim to be a "mixed martial artist" or claim to practice JKD because I read Bruce Lee's book. Then again I could take the route of some early UFC guys and just start making up names. I could call myself a "freestyle shoot fighter." Instead I keep it simple and unpretentious.

As for the throat punch that slides well unless you fight people that have a thing for rubbing themselves with vaseline I don't know how you can't lend a good counter with a jab or direct in the throat without having 100% accuracy

I take it you've never been in a fight outside in the summer. Multiple fast moving bodies covered with sweat making landing any strike 100% solidly less than easy.

(snip)
Had you have any real fighting experience you'd know that in such event your in defensive position and while you don't have to attack you have plenty of time to think
(snip)

Wow you assume a lot of knowledge about me. Here is the thing, In this woman's "defensive position" she was dazed on the floor and being kicked in the head. She was facing multiple agressors that had no compunction about doing serious damage or killing her. My simple point is, in that type of situation you better not worry about whether or not your punch is going to cause too much damage. At that point you are fighting for survival. If you have to break a knee, pop an eye out with your thumb, or punch them in the kidney do it.

She did not have a lot of time to think. She was daed from a suprise attack and regaining her wits when she was attacked again. In that case you drive their knee straight back with the heel of your foot, when they bend clench the head and drive a knee straight in to the nose. If you are afraid you might miss the knee go for the stomach area. A heel just above the pubic mound can rupture the bladder, damage intestines, and drive the wind out of your oponent. That buys time to strike the second person or finish the first one depending on your situation.

For each situation there is a different correct response. But, if you think that lady had time to contemplate whether a kidney punch would be too damaging, you have not been in a real world fight for your life.Sorry but in an MMA competition there is a ref to call the fight, you can tap out, your corner can throw in the towel. In the real world that doesn't happen. You either survive and triumph or risk getting toted out on a stretcher. You have to think out every action in sub seconds. You don't have a corner man yelling instructions, you don't get a break after three minutes, and a clinch becomes a way for your attacker to rest and recooperate.

I'm in Canada so the laws are different

Different countries and different laws. I retract my statement about your lack of knowledge regarding the laws.

No sh!t.....

Then why are you telling people to avoid a technique that could save their life? Is it because the laws and legal system in Canada is that crazy? In America you would be hard pressed to find a jury to hold that woman liable for anything if a kidney punch went bad.

How about the following for middle ground? Do not hit a person in the kidney area as a joke. If you are in a situation like the woman in the opening video, do what ever it takes to survive.

The only thing aikido is do for in such situation is NOTHING

I should have been more specific and listed Iwama Sutairu Aikidō by name. It is a style that emphasis locks and throws from various angles that add the intent of breaking joints and limbs. If teamed with a basic understanding and training in a striking art it is an awesome tool.

The reason I did not list Krav Maga is because it is becoming the flavor of the month. As such it is much harder for a novice to spot the hucksters and scammers. Krav Maga is awesome if taught properly by a person with suficient experience and knowledge.

Pradal Serey and Muay Thai are both competitive martial arts. They are not systems of war. Pradal Setey does not allow for strikes to the back or genitals, it also prohibits striking an oponent on the ground. Both are dangerous and effective if used right. However they are designed to be used within certain guidlines to achieve a win in a sporting event. That is part of why you dislike Aikido.

Bokator and Sambo are both great martial arts. They are based directly on the true intent of war. However, it is almost impossible to find a suitable trainer in most parts of America. Most Americans have easy access to Judo, Jui-Jitsu, Karate (in some form), Taekwondo, and either boxing or kick boxing. The problem is finding a place that is not a "Mcdojo."

Martial Art actually means a codified form of fighting suited for the warrior or war. So, the cool thing is to call Sambo and Krav Maga "combatives." It sets them apart from traditional martial arts and makes them sound more modern. They are modern and they do adress modern concerns. However, they are still martial arts. They are codified forms of fighting for the warrior.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by _R4t_

 

Pradal Serey and Muay Thai are both competitive martial arts. They are not systems of war. Pradal Setey does not allow for strikes to the back or genitals, it also prohibits striking an oponent on the ground. Both are dangerous and effective if used right. However they are designed to be used within certain guidlines to achieve a win in a sporting event. That is part of why you dislike Aikido.

Bokator and Sambo are both great martial arts. They are based directly on the true intent of war. However, it is almost impossible to find a suitable trainer in most parts of America. Most Americans have easy access to Judo, Jui-Jitsu, Karate (in some form), Taekwondo, and either boxing or kick boxing. The problem is finding a place that is not a "Mcdojo."

What ever man your absolutely right I have no fighting experience in the real word thats why I worked 6 years in the past as bouncer in a club owned by hells angels... You sure would love to see the dude I had to have a bout with to land the job... His nickname's Bear... wanna talk sweaty??? try fighting people on meth they don't feel sh!t... they are VERY mad and sweat like pigs... and never missed the good old throat punch... when the guy's 6inch taller than you and at least 140lb you have to resort to quick and dirty yet I never had to use "lethal" force... I wonder why... I must of not learn the right stuff then...

So I guess now I'll have to go learn how to do moonkicks and hadoken fireballs to know how to fight...

BTW... pradal serrey is an art of war it was derived from bokator than later on its rumored the thai's stole pradal serrey and created muay boran which is also an art of war... later on muay boran was watered down into muay thai as a sport which is still more than you need to kill someone the original bare knuckle muay thai was a complete system they only had removed the most "deadly" stuff from boran for the sport purpose but got watered down to today's muay thai with the years... as a matter of fact this is why they started to use hand wrapping hundreds of years ago because bare knuckle had too many deaths and injuries...

edit on 28-4-2011 by MikeNice81 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by _R4t_


I still don't understand why you are saying avoid a kidney punch. Especially if you are advocating a punch in the throat. A punch to the throat is much more deadly than a kidney punch.

Whatever though, you are the god of war. You not only are a trained martial artist, you beat the baddest biker in Canada to get a job as a bouncer. You then proceeded to fight it out with meth heads on a regular basis. You have won the internet commando god of war challenge.

You may have some form of experience. However, in my time working security and working with the police I never saw a guy that took the time to say "I can't hit them there" walk out in one piece. Hit them in the throat if you want to. I have attacked the throat myself. (I don't usually punch the throat though. I usually use the web of my hand across the adam's apple. It not only takes their breath it allows you to put them on their back and get a mount.) It is an effective strike. However, do not tell somebody they shouldn't go for a kidney shot if they have it.

One of the firt things I learned in my first fight as a kid was, anything goes. When you're worrying about whether the guy has an accomplice near by, a knife, or might grab an improvised weapon, everything is open. Kidney shots are brutal and effective if excecuted properly. Like any strike (including a punch to the throat) the opening has to be there. If you're waiting for that one moment to open up, you are finished. So, use whatever is available including the kidney punch. If you are in a situation where the use of hard hands is justifiable it will get you in no more trouble. It also avoids the risk of accidentaly collapsing the trachea and turning your self defense claim in to an involuntary man slaughter charge.

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
I have a question for some of you fighters... off topic slightly

I used to be a hell of a gymnast - double back flips, triple twisting layouts, etc so I always know where I am in the air or tumbling around. I'm a good wrestler too.

Would grappling and tumbling, a kick upward while rolling on the ground, and stuff like that fly at all in a street fight? Or would I likely just get pounced on and pummeled like the girl in McDonalds?

I can get out of holds, but wondering how easy it is to effectively hit a person who's moving in really unexpected ways?

Grappling of any sort would be inadvisable in a street fight PARTICULARLY if you are outnumbered as you will just be pinned by the other attackers as you struggle. Before I suggest any violent action I'm just going to say that running is always the best option and the safest too.

That said and done an advanced grappler could use a restraining move such as a sleeper hold is a reasonable way of restraining a single assailant until help can arrive. If you are fighting multiple targets and have reasonable grounds to believe they intend to kill or seriously injure you (such as presence of a knife) and have eliminated the running option, Then you have to make sure they are dealt with as fast as possible starting with the man holding the weapon. A throat punch is a very effective tool for quickly disabling people but you must be aware that such a blow can easily be lethal and should be used with caution. That said, blows to the solar plexus (Directly beneath the sternum and above the diaphram) and the abdomen "au general" are both effective areas to attack. Do not get bogged down in a grapple under any circumstance. If you are able to trip someone, a falling heel punch to the gut while they are floored will have them out for a LONG time. If someone throws a clumsy haymaker, and you can intercept then you can easily break the joint by sharply heel-punching the elbow joint when the arm is extended.

In a non lethal situation you may at best be able to justify breaking a bone and even then might end up on a battery charge. Best method? Kick to the side of the knee joint (or front if the leg is extended) Then, run.

People do not move irregularly bar the head which can move in very odd ways so stick to torso and possibly (as above) neck and leg shots where possible, if they are spastic enough to move those parts constantly they are probably not able to chase you down!

Cheers.