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When does something become 'Unnatural?"

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posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 01:18 AM
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"At what point does something become unnatural?"

In another ATS thread, a poster mentioned something about using natural (skin) products and goes on to say: If you cannot it eat, don't use it.

How far? If anything is produced from this planet, then consider it "natural". Anything produced in a "lab", consider it "unnatural".




posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 01:21 AM
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reply to post by Julio
 


I thought about this a few days ago too. Our planet is natural, and man is natural. Everything we make, then, is natural also (bee hive example you used). Furthermore, everything we create has come from the Earth and will return to it.

The car, pollution, a plastic bottle... It is all natural.

Really neat to see a rare thought like this with so much agreement in one thread!

What should we consider unnatural.... Well: Anything that is not ordinary in the course of nature, but in the grand scheme of things, who're we to determine what is ordinary in this vast universe?

Take care.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 01:38 AM
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Great topic.
If we suppose that an animals manipulation of the environment is natural, then we have no choice but to concede that everything is natural.

Honestly, I really don't think there's any way to even justify the existence of the word "unnatural". It should be deleted from the dictionary. It's impossible to conceive of anything "unnatural" because there is no alternative. We have no outside perspective from nature. Nature has no opposite. Unless you want to say that nonexistence is unnatural since it doesn't exist in nature, but that's really just stupid and doesn't get us anywhere.

But, for the sake of entertainment and ridiculous speculation, we could say that anything that has never been thought before is unnatural. For example, I have never thought of a giant white snake with seven arms and feathers sticking out of its eyes, so up until this second, it was unnatural, but not anymore since it now exists in thought form, and we think naturally, therefore our thoughts are natural.

So to answer your question: something becomes unnatural when it no longer exists in any form, because if it exists, it can only have come into existence naturally.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 01:44 AM
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reply to post by Redevilfan09
 


Once upon a time trees didn't exist, that doesn't mean now that it does exist it is not natural. We have to look at the whole, the whole is the Universal system, within this system anything which can be created, whether by us or by other entities is natural.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 02:55 AM
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reply to post by P3ACE0WAR
 


It is just a word in the end, but I will put my 2 bob in trying to explain the way I see it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but thats what we are here for isn't it. It's a great topic and it does get you thinking a bit.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 03:04 AM
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Unnatural things cannot sustain themselves without depleting what is natural.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by Julio
 


The simplest explanation is that when someone sees someone else doing something they themselves don't do, it becomes unnatural.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by debris765nju
The simplest explanation is that when someone sees someone else doing something they themselves don't do, it becomes unnatural.


Great answer!

I have thought about this subject a lot. I think man is natural, but some of the things we do are against nature (pollute the water and air, strip the forests, drill for oil) These things that damage the earth or the beings living there (us included) are unnatural, to me.

For this reason, I believe the entire agricultural and industrial ages are unnatural for us. Our "progression" from animals on this planet to what we have become today is unnatural.

I agree with the definition posted by Redevilfan09 - "existing in or formed by nature". So, everything on the Earth is natural. Just because a man exists in nature doesn't mean that everything he does is natural.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 08:16 AM
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reply to post by bandito
 


Its 'unnatural' when you want to share your disturbing sex life with us



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by Julio
 


I think something is unnatural if you do not find it in the natural world. To humans it is unnatural if you don't find it in the animal kingdom, and unnatural can depend on your species. Something natural for fish may not be natural for mammals. I guess other than the norm would be unnatural. Unknown may actually be natural, sixth sense type things for example but as yet just unknown, not studied or explored in earnest or with the proper stimulus or combination of stimuli to produce effect

Edit: in short, natural is synchronicity, maybe even symbiotic
and out of sync is unnatural, so in sync or out of sync - I think!

edit on 18-4-2011 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 01:26 PM
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Wow, didn't expect so many replies on this. Love this website!


Originally posted by bandito
My girlfriend and i do things that you won't even see on National Geographic Explorer among the animals of Africa so we're probably unnatural.


It's fantastic to know that our pal Bandito has an exotic sex life with his girlfriend.




Originally posted by Abe7Fig
reply to post by Julio
 

I can't believe I'm about to make a Tolkein reference, but the situation reminds me of his cosmology... DOT DOT TOLKIEN QUOTE DOT DOT But I digress!


I didn't copy your entire post, but just want you to know I read it, and it was a fantastic read. You have some very good points. Though I never read any Tolkien (I know, I'm ashamed of myself too), I found the reference was very appropriate. It kind of starts its own thing really...I'm most definitely 100% atheist, however the God stuff always intrigues me. He makes everything good, and only we/devils corrupt the system. Thus making things 'unnatural'
A++ for expanding the topic as well as my mind.



Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by Julio
 


Perhaps we should define what we mean by the word "natural". It does not mean organic, it refers to being in conformance with the laws of nature. What then are the laws of nature, newtonian physics perhaps. The laws that work on an atomic and larger scale are "natural laws". So unnatural things would therefore be things that must fail because they are not sustainable, the law eventually catches up with them, when it doesn't then it is unnatural or supernatural.

The way things work on a subatomic level is viewed by quantum physics and it on that level things are supernatural and go beyond the natural laws. I particularly like the "spooky effect". There was a religious group of people known as the Shakers (made good chairs by the way) and they did not believe people should have children, they died off. Their rule was unnatural and unsustainable, you don't meet many shakers anymore.

Thats my shot at it.


That's a very interesting take on it as well. I love the part about the Shakers. Bless their timid souls. :3



Originally posted by Redevilfan09
reply to post by P3ACE0WAR
 

Its the same as you losing an eye, your eye was natural, The glass one which you can not see out of to replace your eye is Artificial or un-natural. The only purpose it serves to you is to make you look like you have two eyes, and look like everyone else. Breast Implants are Artificial, Plastic surgery is Artificial. They are created from natural things, but they are Artificial(un-natural).

Please correct me if I'm off track here anyone and I'll shut up. cheers.


This is my favorite post. This actually makes total sense...Those are great examples. EVERYONE READ THAT ^


Originally posted by Epiphron

But, for the sake of entertainment and ridiculous speculation, we could say that anything that has never been thought before is unnatural. For example, I have never thought of a giant white snake with seven arms and feathers sticking out of its eyes, so up until this second, it was unnatural, but not anymore since it now exists in thought form, and we think naturally, therefore our thoughts are natural.

So to answer your question: something becomes unnatural when it no longer exists in any form, because if it exists, it can only have come into existence naturally.




Made my day. Another really good point!



Didn't get a chance to reply to everyone, thanks for the awesome discussion!



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 03:52 PM
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Wow, this thread's timing is strange. My wife and I have an ongoing debate about this very thing. I finally came to a conclusion last week after a long pondering. My understanding of nature has changed after gaining a more cosmic perspective of the universe. See, everything that exists, came from hydrogen, helium, and a wee bit of lithium. Every other element was created by stardust that was made of those three ingredients. So, when we talk about "nature", anything that is not one of those three elements, is unnatural. The question is how many level removed from nature is it?

Everything is a product of something. The OP mentioned bees making honey which is an excellent example. Even a tree is unnatural as it wasn't something that existed until fairly recently (in the big picture) but we consider it "nature". We consider anything that is not man-made as "nature". I think that is very unfair. Anything molded by a human's hands is the epitome of nature. Those things are a direct effect from a natural force: humanity. To say a car is unnatural is to say humanity is unnatural. I just don't buy it.

Now, show me an alien from some other dimension, made of some strange unknown element, and we can agree that it is not natural.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by Cuervo
Wow, this thread's timing is strange. My wife and I have an ongoing debate about this very thing. I finally came to a conclusion last week after a long pondering. My understanding of nature has changed after gaining a more cosmic perspective of the universe. See, everything that exists, came from hydrogen, helium, and a wee bit of lithium. Every other element was created by stardust that was made of those three ingredients. So, when we talk about "nature", anything that is not one of those three elements, is unnatural. The question is how many level removed from nature is it?

Everything is a product of something. The OP mentioned bees making honey which is an excellent example. Even a tree is unnatural as it wasn't something that existed until fairly recently (in the big picture) but we consider it "nature". We consider anything that is not man-made as "nature". I think that is very unfair. Anything molded by a human's hands is the epitome of nature. Those things are a direct effect from a natural force: humanity. To say a car is unnatural is to say humanity is unnatural. I just don't buy it.

Now, show me an alien from some other dimension, made of some strange unknown element, and we can agree that it is not natural.




"To say a car is unnatural is to say humanity is unnatural. I just don't buy it."


We as humans are natural, but in the big picture, take us away from Earth, could the planet continue with everything else that is here and not our influence? Yes, does that mean that we are un-natural to this planet?

There are so many different levels to the topic, it is hard to give an answer, but when it comes to a car, computer, mobile phone etc, they to me are not natural, yes they were created by humans, but the planet and us humans can get by without them if we had to.

When it comes to trees, plants, insects, animals and the other things in nature, they play a crucial part in a natural cycle on the planet. Without most of the things mentioned above, the planet would simply not support us.

The people who created all the great stuff we have were smart people and it is in our nature to think that way, but when you look at the bigger picture, what do our great minds contribute to the natural cycle on the planet?

Take the Niger Delta as an example, The gulf of Mexico oil spill, Nuclear Fallout, and there are many more examples, All these things destroy the environment, and were created by man, was it a natural cause?



edit on 18-4-2011 by Redevilfan09 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by Redevilfan09
 


But it is not humanity, exclusively, that destroys nature. It is a side-effect of our (people) nature that destroys the environment but there are plenty of animals that destroy their own ecospheres. We destroy stuff, sure... but that's nature.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by Cuervo
 


You are right, I mean if we didn't destroy stuff, how could we re-create stuff, it is human nature.. With the animals destroying there eco-systems can you give me a couple of examples of this happening so I can get a better idea of what you are saying, cheers



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by Redevilfan09
reply to post by Cuervo
 


You are right, I mean if we didn't destroy stuff, how could we re-create stuff, it is human nature.. With the animals destroying there eco-systems can you give me a couple of examples of this happening so I can get a better idea of what you are saying, cheers


Sheep for one. Sheep will graze a pasture till nothing will be left, right down to the nub.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by Redevilfan09
reply to post by Cuervo
 


You are right, I mean if we didn't destroy stuff, how could we re-create stuff, it is human nature.. With the animals destroying there eco-systems can you give me a couple of examples of this happening so I can get a better idea of what you are saying, cheers


Almost all of them do. This is why they are nomadic, over hunt, kill off their own when they overpopulate, create diseases. The difference is that they all have predators to keep each species in check. We pretty much overcame that... I guess that's what the government is for, eh?



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