French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Most women walking around in Afghanistan with scars are most likely to have gotten them from terrorist attacks.

In a country that refuses to allow women to be educated, or to allow them to develop any skills to become economically independent, where young girls are often married to much older men, of course you are going to have a lot of poor widows begging on the streets. It is a common result of the culture.

Most likely they walk around wearing burqa because they are scared, and live in constant fear. For you to try to blame this on the west, and use it to defend the barbaric practice of forcing women to wear these horrible traveling prisons is extremely twisted.

reply to post by civilchallenger


Women can not wear anything they want. Most of the nations of the world have laws that restrict extreme styles of dress for numerous reasons, and pretty much all of them have been provided here on this thread.

Sorry you can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way.

reply to post by coquine

Here's a suggestion- Italy just recieved thousands of immigrant Muslims from Tunisia. They put them on a train to France. France refused them entry. They are, for the most part, young men. Being as France already has a huge muslim population which is terrorising and oppressing the french people, they aren't accepting any more.

Why don't the Americans, English, whoever else feels so strongly about protecting these people, volunteer to take them in? Show them freedom at your place? They are sitting in waiting for your open arms in Italy (who don't want them either).

It makes one wonder, if the only place they can find refuge is under European rule, then why did they end colonialism?

I would say this is only the beginning. Europe is about to enter a period where they will close off their borders to immigration, and the U.S. and other form Brit colonies will most likely do the same. The polls are starting to show that the majority is fed up with the problems created by excess immigration.

I also wouldn't be surprised if immigrant populations who continue to act like invading forces aren't rounded up and deported eventually.

SO can you believe it? Mohammed came to me in another vision last night! He told me that it is wrong to wear a face veil on women. He says that it is utterly offensive to humans to wear the face veil.

It offends my religious beliefs to see a face veil on a woman now. Mohammed teaches me that only Males must cover up their faces with a Mohammed mask. These are the words of the prophet Mohammed (mask be upon him). This is the newest teaching that I need to share with the world.

So what do I do about this sticky wicket? On one hand my beliefs offend them (not intentionally) and on the other hand their beliefs offend me (not intentionally). I hope that they can be tolerant and accepting of my Mohammed mask (mask be upon him).

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

Women can not wear anything they want. Most of the nations of the world have laws that restrict extreme styles of dress for numerous reasons, and pretty much all of them have been provided here on this thread.

Sorry you can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way.

Women can wear whatever they want to *IN A FREE SOCIETY*! Get it? Of course not. Because you are a tyrant and we cannot peacefully co-exist together because you wish violence upon people who have not caused any harm. There are people out there wearing burkas minding their own business, not harming anybody, and you wish to use acts of violence to force off articles their clothing. An objective person can see that is obviously a destructive act of theft on your part.

I provided six valid reasons women in France should have a right to wear burkas. You've done nothing to invalidate any of the six reasons. Then, I've repeatedly asked you for a list of all your reasons burkas should be banned. You've repeatedly refused to provide any reasoning at all.

I think the proper metaphor to use is that you close your eyes tight and refuse to open them to see the light of day.

reply to post by civilchallenger


You have yet to provide any reasons why a woman should be allowed to wear a burqa, and all you have done is ignore the reasons why the burqa has been outlawed, and why it most likely will be outlawed soon in other countries as well. They should add the Hijab to that list.

Dress codes are a standard throughout all civilizations, and banning the burqa as an extreme dress form is every bit as reasonable as banning nudity, and the wearing of hate statements and symbols. Here in the U.S., where they have had problems with gangs, they have banned wearing gang symbolism.

Reasons why the burqa should be banned:, safety, security, symbol of hatred and oppression, protect those women who are being forced to wear the burqa by abusive husbands, allows men to hide their women if they have beaten them up, allows men to hide their child brides, allows men to hide their sex slaves, creates division and hostility in an environment that is already a powder keg for future violence, and is a symbol that goes against all that western culture stands for.

Keep pushing your obstinance, and dishonesty, and keep ignoring the reasons why this is becoming a bigger and bigger problem, and you will see the problem get worse and worse, and your obstinance will be once the reasons why.

reply to post by poet1b



There is no reason why a woman, if she so chooses, cannot wear a burqa or any other garment.
So what if Islamophobes are offended, muslims shouldn`t have to live their lives according to ignorance and prejudice.

Sould I care, let alone be offended, when I see skinheads wearing their swatikas and white power tatoos?
As far as I`m concerned, they have their beliefs, and I have mine.

Originally posted by Saracen1
reply to post by poet1b

 

There is no reason why a woman, if she so chooses, cannot wear a burqa or any other garment.
So what if Islamophobes are offended, muslims shouldn`t have to live their lives according to ignorance and prejudice.

Sould I care, let alone be offended, when I see skinheads wearing their swatikas and white power tatoos?
As far as I`m concerned, they have their beliefs, and I have mine.

People with white power swastikas and Aryan tattoos are far more likely to be spat upon in today's society. However that may be, this is going in circles. We say, "Do it in your own country, they are your cultures and traditions" you say, "We want to do whatever we want wherever we want and you better respect it (Allah the Merciful be praised)". We sound respectable, your reasoning sounds unfathomably thickheaded and childlike in manner.

reply to post by Saracen1


Propagation of nazism (including wearing such clothes) is indeed banned in plenty of countries, and for a good reason. Are you comparing burqa to swastikas?

reply to post by Saracen1


Yet you insist on forcing your women to live their lives according to ignorance and prejudice.

If they wear the veil, they will be taken into custody, and then possibly into protective custody, and the husband will be charged most likely with a crime, at least in France for now, but most likely all Western style countries, and probably China and India as well. I expect the hijab to be next.

France has already stopped new immigrants from entering the country, and this is something that other European countries will probably start doing. Islam has worn out its welcome in Europe.

You will probably start to see more and more laws, with stiff penalties. They should build prisons in Iceland, and start cracking down.

Sad to see things go this way.

If you have a visible swastika tattoo, you will be socially ostracized in the west. Employers will refuse to hire you, and there will be nothing you can do about it.

reply to post by IronArm


Well thankyou for your little anecdote that skinhead fascists are more likely to be spat on in society.
I`ll remember that the next time I see a boot wearing, swastika branding, knuckle dragging skinhead, and give him/her a big hug.

My argument is rather simple to grasp, maybe too simple for some, so I`ll speak slowly to help those who are mentally challenged.

Here in the "enlightened West", there is something called freedom of religion. The basis of which is everyone having the right to practise their religion, within reason of course.The banning of a religious garment goes against this "freedom" and is unjust, unfair and an infringement of a persons human right to practise their religion.

You see thats the trouble with having "rights and freedoms", before you know it every Tom, Dick and Hamza is asserting theirs.

reply to post by Saracen1


Except when those religious beliefs impose on the norms and beliefs of a majority of society, like walking around naked, or covering yourself completely. Then that society has the right to make unacceptable dress habits illegal.

Keep clinging to your obstinancy, and things will continue to get worse.

Originally posted by Saracen1
reply to post by IronArm

 

Well thankyou for your little anecdote that skinhead fascists are more likely to be spat on in society.
I`ll remember that the next time I see a boot wearing, swastika branding, knuckle dragging skinhead, and give him/her a big hug.

My argument is rather simple to grasp, maybe too simple for some, so I`ll speak slowly to help those who are mentally challenged.

Here in the "enlightened West", there is something called freedom of religion. The basis of which is everyone having the right to practise their religion, within reason of course.The banning of a religious garment goes against this "freedom" and is unjust, unfair and an infringement of a persons human right to practise their religion.

You see thats the trouble with having "rights and freedoms", before you know it every Tom, Dick and Hamza is asserting theirs.

I didn't approve of Aryan supremacy supporters. I meant clearly that that type of mentality does not fly in the current state of affairs. I'm not too sure where the "hug" thing came from.

And the "enlightened West"....If the White guys made the rules, don't you think they are allowed to keep their own rules in thier own country? We keep going over this. Only the Westerners have to bend over backwards for the immigrants and the religious ideologies they bring with them? In the (I'll just use your terminology for giggles, as light is the opposite of dark and so on) un-lightened east this would not apply and is not acceptable correct? This may seem childish, but if we cant have ours why should you get yours?

You and your mate popeye make a fine pair, the Laural and Hardy of ATS!

Popeye I think you need to study the "freedom of religion" part a bit harder.These laws have been enacted precisely to protect minorties from the tyranny of the majority.

Ironman...... what? you`ve lost me, not for the first time.
Why bring up the "east", where not debating Saudi Arabia, but the good old "enlightened West". I repeat yet again, under the "freedom of religion" clause, people are free to practise their religion, even if they`re black/brown/yellow/white etc. what part of that is giving you difficulty?

Popeye, why do you always end your posts with an implied threat.....eg..things are gonna get worse etc.?
Nothing is gonna happen, you know that. People losing their jobs, homes, pensions aint done jack...they`re hardly gonna start an uprising cos a few muzzies are covering their faces.

reply to post by Saracen1


I have to agree, we do an excellent job of making you look like a clown.

There is absolutely nothing about banning the burqa that prohibits your exercise of religion. As has been pointed out, the burqa has nothing to do with the practice of Islam.

It is simply your desire to treat women like slaves.

Ah, but if you had a clue about reality, you would know that there are levels of the practice of religion that will be prohibited, like, human sacrifice, and women wearing burqa's, if this had anything to do with the exercise of religion.

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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

Dress codes are a standard throughout all civilizations, and banning the burqa as an extreme dress form is every bit as reasonable as banning nudity, and the wearing of hate statements and symbols. Here in the U.S., where they have had problems with gangs, they have banned wearing gang symbolism.

Reasons why the burqa should be banned:, safety, security, symbol of hatred and oppression, protect those women who are being forced to wear the burqa by abusive husbands, allows men to hide their women if they have beaten them up, allows men to hide their child brides, allows men to hide their sex slaves, creates division and hostility in an environment that is already a powder keg for future violence, and is a symbol that goes against all that western culture stands for.

*personal attack deleted*

You brought up a large number of interesting points and I'll happily admit you have a lot of alleged reasons now why wearing burkas should be banned. I believe dress codes are standard for civilizations, I also believe dress codes are completely absent from advanced civilizations. The core reason why women should be allowed to wear burkas is that people should be able to do what they wish so long as they are not harming another person. Wearing a burka does not necessarily harm anyone, so wearing a burka should be allowed.

A ban of burkas decreases safety because the underlying message of intolerance of certain dress styles will further divide Europe along religious lines. It furthermore decreases security, because you are no longer secure from governments and other malicious corporations from spying on your face and logging your every move... something they have no business in doing. People should have a right to privacy from nosy busy-bodies on the street who constantly try to control people based on anything, everything, or nothing at all they are doing "wrong".

I find pants and shirts to be oppressive in hot weather. In a way it would be nice for me if the law were changed to require no pants or shirts), on hot days, so I'd feel more comfortable in public while traveling. I find my tie to be oppressive at work... stifling on occasion. But these are my own opinions! I don't have a right to force my opinion on others, so the laws should not be changed for example to ban pants on hot days.

Some people view a burka as symbol of oppression and hate. However to the people wearing them the burka is completely non-symbolic and meant as a purposeful method of dressing in a way to show less skin. So for them, the burka is not a symbol of hate. What a burka symbolizes is one's own opinion and I'd argue the opinion that counts the most on what a symbol means is actually what its author meant it to mean. Therefore we should not force our opinion about what an offensive dress style is on other people, especially when they believe that method of dressing is highly respectful.

Some people wear a burka to hide. Good for them, it is nice to be able to hide. Look at how celebrities have dressed up in an attempt to hide from the public. If a woman celebrity wore a burka, she could hide her identity from the public while shopping. There are good reasons to hide, and bad reasons to hide. To ban a burka because of the fact it hides people is to declare someone guilty of a crime they probably never committed. The ability to hide under a burka is a reason to ensure they are always allowed, rather than banned. Any item you mention can be used for good or evil. So while a burka can be used for evil (hiding of a slave) it can also be used for good (a celebrity avoiding paparazzi). Or perhaps a Muslim could wear a burka so she doesn't have to worry about her looks. I'd bet a large number of American women would wear burkas if it was a common practice for that exact reason.

Revealing your face is basically information for the public. Random people on the street don't have a right to your personal information unless you are a probable criminal yet to be identified. Therefore you should not be forced against your will to reveal your face until there is an indication you'll probably commit a crime. Freedom of expression should also mean freedom of non-expression... so when a woman wears a burka she is exercising her right to the freedom of expression (right to privacy).

Hopefully in the future you can make your points without bringing up how you perceive my level of honesty. And likewise, I will try to avoid mentioning what I believe how tyrannical I believe you to be... it was probably inappropriate of me to bring that up and I apologize for doing so.

Banks in these parts have banned hoods and helmets for a couple of decades or so.

Where's the outcry over them? Face coverings have always been the refuge of outlaws - right up to rioters today.

One of the reasons why we CAN have a liberal society is that basic identity is always known - IMO the "freedom to lack expression" is BS - ther is not unlimited freedom of expression, and htere is no need for there to be unlimited "freedom to lack expression" either.

Western Society is built upon a level of openness that needs to be defended against medieval practices - whether those practices are religous or not, and whether they are voluntary or not.

Originally posted by Saracen1
reply to post by poet1b

 

There is no reason why a woman, if she so chooses, cannot wear a burqa or any other garment.
So what if Islamophobes are offended, muslims shouldn`t have to live their lives according to ignorance and prejudice.

Sould I care, let alone be offended, when I see skinheads wearing their swatikas and white power tatoos?
As far as I`m concerned, they have their beliefs, and I have mine.

The only way that could be used as metaphor for this specific situation is if-
-The skinheads came from another country,
-Became such a big population that they were 50% in many big cities,
-Were proclaiming and acting upon their right to break the laws of the host country (theft, assult, etc.),
-Through violence, forcing their own style of law and rule onto those who are not skinheads.
-Refused to integrate with the native peoples at all
-were, at 90%, living off of welfare

Not being allowed to wear their swastikas and white power tatoos might influence some to leave, and go back to their home country, or to country that will allow this, and influence some in other countries thinking of entering to not do so.
If enforced, it might get them to understand that the laws of the host country DO apply to them. A minimum of integration is necessary.
If one is going to live off of the state, as a dependant, their freedom is limited. Just as a kid that decides to live at home and not work past the age of twenty, they are obligated to respect the rules of the parents. If they want more freedom, then they can get a job, and cease to be dependant.