Philosophy and Humility

Why does humility get such a bad rap? Why does Machiavelli, Hobbes, Nietzche and others dominate todays common attitute, that humility is unnecessary. That power, and mans right to assume power is of the ultimate importance.

How can we live this way? How can we strip G-d, the unknowable center of our existence, of his rightful soveriegnty?

Why is this even made an issue? I have before me two opinions. One which seeks to justify mans perspective, and thus stubbornly refuses anything but the most selfish. And than theres faith. The capitulation to that inexorable human dimension of feeling, of intuition, that draws us to understand that we are not all there is. That beyond us there is a creator. And that we, being but a flicker of his light, are his creations. This should cause one to feel a profound feeling of gratitude, and love for him, and thus for all creatures.

Why do so many people have to be so stubbornly insistent that our perspective is all that matters? Why do we reject the divine? and G-d? and universal morality?

This world will never find peace till man learns to submit to G-d; and in doing so, he will learn to live wisely,and lovingly with his fellow man, and with creation at large.

reply to post by dontreally


There are still people who murder their children to protec tthe from the devil... or because god told them to..

There are still people hearing the voice of god telling them to go to war..... to take away the choices of others... and force their beliefs upon anyone they see.

So as i see it..... You pitifull G-d is where hes always been... in the minds of the delusional and ignorant.

I personally think the majority of the Human race feel hopelessly lost and are tired of putting their faith in a "mythical" being .
It is a natural human reaction that when we lose faith in something , we search for something more tangible .
I think we have become far too sceptical to accept anything on blind faith anymore.

Peace

reply to post by dontreally


I agree with you wholeheartedly dontreally.

While I respect the opinions of those who choose not to believe, I hope they will respect the thoughts of those of us who do.

No one has the answers to all of these questions that swirl about us. I guess, as simplistic as it may sound, I am so happy to be in an excellent relationship with God. Because God only knows I'm far from perfect.

Peace.

Ah...People, God isn't the god that psychotics rage about to their children or people of other faiths. And honestly, the faith that God teaches isn't "blind" so to speak. I think that if people really tried to pay attention and accept a balanced vision of God - it would help a great deal of people. If people are raised to be afraid of God, then yes they could be susceptible to this crazy religion talk everyone yaks about. But in God, I think a healthy mind can find hope, humility, honor, joy, and a bunch of other things. Seriously, try not to pay too much attention to the people who "kill their children" and such in the name of God. They could be psychopaths and obviously aren't in a healthy state of mind - with or without God. Actually, can't severe trauma cause a child to grow up to become slightly disturbed? Maybe as children, these people who pervert the message of God were beaten or just "fed" too much from religion from their parents and are projecting it to their children? I don't know...I also feel like I was rambling all over the map here. In either case, I agree with the OP here. I do hope I added at least something useful.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

But you can exercise humility, love of other beings, and all of the feelings attributed to "faith" but hold no religious belief system. You do require faith or belief in a godhead to be an ethical human being. Besides it has nothing to do with Faith, the "kingdom of heaven" that resides in all of us, is our consciousness... and this consciousness is universal because intelligent things have consciousness.. I feel more connected to humanity through this common ground that we all share, than through the TOO many religious belief systems that are apparently "the truth"

reply to post by dontreally


In reference to humility looking at Socrates statement "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." in support of this we could look at a child starting to gain a knowledge of Maths. Entering into the field of learning the child learns first to count: from that initial knowledge, from that first step through the door other doors immediately appear labelled addition, subtraction, multiplication... and so on. Every piece of understanding gained would seem to open yet more doors, more pathways for consideration. It is through this new found understanding that the pupil recognises just how little they understood before and if opening one door leads to discovering other doors how likely there is yet ever so much more that remains unknown. This is an example of the understanding, the perspective I have heard from numerous people who claim no belief in a supreme God yet one which could be described as quite a logical argument for humility on the part of those who agree. No 'bad rap'.

One which seeks to justify mans perspective, and thus stubbornly refuses anything but the most selfish .... Why do we reject the divine? and G-d? and universal morality?

The first part of the quote above seems to be suggesting any perspective, any position mankind might adopt without the acceptance of God is selfish; that mankind does not hold within himself alone the potential for loving, altruistic actions. Do you really believe that anyone who lives without a belief in your God is only capable of reaching selfish conclusions and is incapable of adopting (perhaps even comprehending?) and acting upon a world view concerned with and based on consideration for their fellows, animals or surroundings?

Also included in the above quote seems to be the suggestion that automatically tied in with a rejection of your perception of God is a rejection of morality as opposed to simply the rejection of a particular idea (or story) which, amongst many other things, offers a particular set of moral guidelines.

I don't think that life without a belief in a God does equates to either a life without the concept of morality or a refusal to live live within certain moral boundaries, in fact it can lead to some fascinating discussion when considered (where do morals come from and how solid, unchanging are they?). I only mean to use this to exemplify a point, but a quick peek at the Catholic Church in the news recently would suggest that there are those who espouse a fervent faith and yet are either unaware or unaccepting of any 'Universal morality'. So, just as it is easily argued that those who declare to live their life under God do not automatically speak with any moral authority I would argue that life without a belief in a God does not automatically equate to a life without the concept of morality or a refusal to live within moral boundaries.

I find suggestion that all those without a religious faith automatically reject or live without the idea of morality absurd. Here's a video you may find quite stimulating: Justice: What's The Right Thing To Do? Episode 01 "THE MORAL SIDE OF MURDER"

It might have some religious significance if you wish it to, for those who do not wish to lay any moral failings at the feet of another but rather accept responsibility for their stance, it may not. That sentence may seem a little harsh but that doesn't mean it was offered with the sole intent of causing offence, it is quite easy to read between the lines though... Statements about the inherent immoral/amoral position of humans without a religious faith such as

This world will never find peace till man learns to submit to G-d;

(something which could quite easily interpreted as a threat) alongside the suggestion that everyone should all be bloody, sorry, profoundly grateful, to your idea of God could easily be read as bigoted and holding more potential for damage or hostility than peace.

Do give the video a look.

Here's one thing we might be able to agree upon which I don't think is too outrageous: I won't automatically dismiss the humanity (compassion, empathy, altruism) of another solely due a particular personal belief if you don't.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by dontreally

 

There are still people who murder their children to protec tthe from the devil... or because god told them to..

There are still people hearing the voice of god telling them to go to war..... to take away the choices of others... and force their beliefs upon anyone they see.

So as i see it..... You pitifull G-d is where hes always been... in the minds of the delusional and ignorant.

What the hell are you talking about? Murdering children in the name of God? No one that knows my God would do that.

People hearing the voice of god telling them to go to war? Huh?

You're just makin s--t up.

reply to post by dontreally


It depends how you define Humility. Just because one does not believe in or acknowledge the existence of a deity does not make them lacking in humility. True Humility comes from within, not from without.

Humility is admirable, but strictly speaking it does not do much to make one's life better. I much prefer hanging around with people who are humble than those who are arrogant. But still, if you remove the social norms and expectations humility does little to better one's life as an individual.

The irony is God eludes the proud, so when the proud search and find nothing, they assume those who find Him must be delusional. It's a very pitiful state of being.

The main problem with pride is duplicity. People mistake being or doing good for avoiding punishment or gaining reward. When duplicity is dropped, humility reveals itself. Seeking good becomes its own reward and can be recognized for what it is. Here's a blog article I wrote on this:
------------------
Living life well requires a mastery of words and actions. Finding the good in all situations demands the proper application of meaning to form correct choices. Like magic incantations acting on the experiences of awareness, words have the power to transform the intellect in specific directions along the various paths of life. Focusing the lens of the mind then defines the path that is traveled. Clarity of thought can direct the mind toward the good of life if intellect guides emotion. However, if emotion guides intellect, the path of life will only bring clarity through the lessons of uncomfortable experience.

Duplicity

Duplicity is a state of awareness representing contradictory thoughts and actions. Like two out of tune notes, duplicitous thoughts and actions resonate with disharmony to the intellect. Seeking the good in any situation requires harmony between the two. Guiding the emotions from the intellect represents the first step of tuning the mind to harmony and equilibrium. Finding the good in life is impenetrable apart from the proper use of the intellect.

Impenetrability

Impenetrability is the state of being whereby two things cannot occupy the same space. Emotion will always move past the space in the mind occupied by the intellect. Since two objects cannot occupy the same space, the stronger of the two will move the weaker. Seeking the good in any situation requires strength of intellect. The second step to finding harmony and equilibrium in the mind requires the use of intellect as the dominating force for guiding choice. When emotion obediently serves intellect, equanimity follows.

Equanimity

Equanimity is a state of mental and emotional steadiness arising from deep awareness. A constant state of equanimity is impossible if the five senses dictate emotion. To maintain equanimity is to guide action by intellect through the filter of mindfulness of purpose.

Mindfulness

Mindfulness is a calm awareness and mastery of emotion. To be mindful is to master intentions of choice in all moments of life.

Intention

Intention is the first leg of a well traveled journey. The good of life can arise from correct intention if the disharmony caused by duplicity is eliminated by the intellect. This journey demands only one true intention from us along the path. If we wish the good of life as a reward for our efforts, then two contradictory goals are selfishly desired. If we pursue the good of life to avoid punishment, duplicity has once again revealed our selfish intention. True intention, however, only comes by desiring the source of good in life from the perspective of humility.

Humility

Humility seeks the good as its own reward. The goodness of God is the peace that comes from choosing His free gift of Grace.

Grace

Grace is unmerited favor to the humble.

Pride

The exalting of self.

By not choosing, a choice is still made.

Originally posted by dontreally
Why does humility get such a bad rap? Why does Machiavelli, Hobbes, Nietzche and others dominate todays common attitute, that humility is unnecessary. That power, and mans right to assume power is of the ultimate importance.

How can we live this way? How can we strip G-d, the unknowable center of our existence, of his rightful soveriegnty?

Why is this even made an issue? I have before me two opinions. One which seeks to justify mans perspective, and thus stubbornly refuses anything but the most selfish. And than theres faith. The capitulation to that inexorable human dimension of feeling, of intuition, that draws us to understand that we are not all there is. That beyond us there is a creator. And that we, being but a flicker of his light, are his creations. This should cause one to feel a profound feeling of gratitude, and love for him, and thus for all creatures.

Why do so many people have to be so stubbornly insistent that our perspective is all that matters? Why do we reject the divine? and G-d? and universal morality?

This world will never find peace till man learns to submit to G-d; and in doing so, he will learn to live wisely,and lovingly with his fellow man, and with creation at large.

Corpus Hermeticum Book 12

"But if you lock up your soul in your body, abase it and say: 'I understand nothing; I can do nothing; I am afraid of the sea; I cannot reach heaven; I do not know who I was nor who I shall be.' What have you to do with God? For you cannot conceive anything beautiful or good while you are attached to the body and are evil. For the greatest evil is to ignore what belongs to God. To be able to know and to will and to hope is the straight and easy way appropriate to each that will lead to the Supreme Good. When you take that road this Good will meet you everywhere and will be experienced everywhere, even where and when you do not expect it; when awake, asleep, in a ship, on th road, by night, by day, when speaking and when silent, for there is nothing which it is not."

Originally posted by JAK
reply to post by dontreally

 

In reference to humility looking at Socrates statement "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." in support of this we could look at a child starting to gain a knowledge of Maths. Entering into the field of learning the child learns first to count: from that initial knowledge, from that first step through the door other doors immediately appear labelled addition, subtraction, multiplication... and so on. Every piece of understanding gained would seem to open yet more doors, more pathways for consideration. It is through this new found understanding that the pupil recognises just how little they understood before and if opening one door leads to discovering other doors how likely there is yet ever so much more that remains unknown. This is an example of the understanding, the perspective I have heard from numerous people who claim no belief in a supreme God yet one which could be described as quite a logical argument for humility on the part of those who agree. No 'bad rap'.

One which seeks to justify mans perspective, and thus stubbornly refuses anything but the most selfish .... Why do we reject the divine? and G-d? and universal morality?

The first part of the quote above seems to be suggesting any perspective, any position mankind might adopt without the acceptance of God is selfish; that mankind does not hold within himself alone the potential for loving, altruistic actions. Do you really believe that anyone who lives without a belief in your God is only capable of reaching selfish conclusions and is incapable of adopting (perhaps even comprehending?) and acting upon a world view concerned with and based on consideration for their fellows, animals or surroundings?

Also included in the above quote seems to be the suggestion that automatically tied in with a rejection of your perception of God is a rejection of morality as opposed to simply the rejection of a particular idea (or story) which, amongst many other things, offers a particular set of moral guidelines.

I don't think that life without a belief in a God does equates to either a life without the concept of morality or a refusal to live live within certain moral boundaries, in fact it can lead to some fascinating discussion when considered (where do morals come from and how solid, unchanging are they?). I only mean to use this to exemplify a point, but a quick peek at the Catholic Church in the news recently would suggest that there are those who espouse a fervent faith and yet are either unaware or unaccepting of any 'Universal morality'. So, just as it is easily argued that those who declare to live their life under God do not automatically speak with any moral authority I would argue that life without a belief in a God does not automatically equate to a life without the concept of morality or a refusal to live within moral boundaries.

I find suggestion that all those without a religious faith automatically reject or live without the idea of morality absurd. Here's a video you may find quite stimulating: Justice: What's The Right Thing To Do? Episode 01 "THE MORAL SIDE OF MURDER"

It might have some religious significance if you wish it to, for those who do not wish to lay any moral failings at the feet of another but rather accept responsibility for their stance, it may not. That sentence may seem a little harsh but that doesn't mean it was offered with the sole intent of causing offence, it is quite easy to read between the lines though... Statements about the inherent immoral/amoral position of humans without a religious faith such as

This world will never find peace till man learns to submit to G-d;

(something which could quite easily interpreted as a threat) alongside the suggestion that everyone should all be bloody, sorry, profoundly grateful, to your idea of God could easily be read as bigoted and holding more potential for damage or hostility than peace.

Do give the video a look.

Here's one thing we might be able to agree upon which I don't think is too outrageous: I won't automatically dismiss the humanity (compassion, empathy, altruism) of another solely due a particular personal belief if you don't.

edit on 9/4/11 by JAK because: (no reason given)

Know them by their fruit. They have no part with God when they harm children (the least of these).

Matthew 7:21

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Matthew 25

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by dontreally

 

There are still people who murder their children to protec tthe from the devil... or because god told them to..

There are still people hearing the voice of god telling them to go to war..... to take away the choices of others... and force their beliefs upon anyone they see.

So as i see it..... You pitifull G-d is where hes always been... in the minds of the delusional and ignorant.

You can't recognize a fault in others without seeing it in yourself first. Humility requires self-examination apart from pride. Pride says, "I don't need a God to recognize fault in myself." This is the ultimate statement of pride, placing the self above God. When man made the choice to walk on Earth by his own efforts in Genesis 3, God said that he would work the Earth in toil. Examples throughout the Bible demonstrate the good that comes form removing this self-delusion and walking with God instead. This is where a person has the opportunity to find the true pillars of stability, peace and satisfaction in life that only God offers. You cannot do this for yourself. You can try, but in the end you will see that you are incapable. All of life is 1 Corinthians 13, Faith, Hope and Love. There is no way around this. The Drudge Report shows us daily what results follow a Godless world.

Book of Enoch Chapter XCI 3-11

'Hear, ye sons of Enoch, all the words of your father,
And hearken aright to the voice of my mouth;
For I exhort you and say unto you, beloved:

Love uprightness and walk therein.
4. And draw not nigh to uprightness with a double heart (Duplicity),
And associate not with those of a double heart,
But walk in righteousness, my sons.
And it shall guide you on good paths,
And righteousness shall be your companion.

5. For I know that violence must increase on the earth,
And a great chastisement be executed on the earth,
And all unrighteousness come to an end:

Yea, it shall be cut off from its roots,
And its whole structure be destroyed.

6. And unrighteousness shall again be consummated on the earth,
And all the deeds of unrighteousness and of violence
And transgression shall prevail in a twofold degree.

7. And when sin and unrighteousness and blasphemy
And violence in all kinds of deeds increase,
And apostasy and transgression and uncleanness increase, p. 131

A great chastisement shall come from heaven upon all these,
And the holy Lord will come forth with wrath and chastisement
To execute judgement on earth.

8. In those days violence shall be cut off from its roots,
And the roots of unrighteousness together with deceit,
And they shall be destroyed from under heaven.

9. And all the idols of the heathen shall be abandoned,
And the temples burned with fire,
And they shall remove them from the whole earth,

And they (i.e. the heathen) shall be cast into the judgement of fire,
And shall perish in wrath and in grievous judgement for ever.

10. And the righteous shall arise from their sleep,
And wisdom shall arise and be given unto them.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by dontreally

 

It depends how you define Humility. Just because one does not believe in or acknowledge the existence of a deity does not make them lacking in humility. True Humility comes from within, not from without.

Humility is admirable, but strictly speaking it does not do much to make one's life better. I much prefer hanging around with people who are humble than those who are arrogant. But still, if you remove the social norms and expectations humility does little to better one's life as an individual.

edit on 9/4/2011 by Dark Ghost because: clarity

reply to post by TheSparrowSings


Is a "godhead" a replacement for G-d?

I understand the concept of the godhead, and it somewhat figures into my own understanding of my relationship with G-d. But theres one main difference. While you stop at the godhead, i make that extra leap, that rational, intuitvely justifiable belief, mind you, that all that we see around us didnt come about by itself. Something created it. And it wasnt me, or you, or any human being.

This leaves only that which we call G-d.

reply to post by JAK

Do you really believe that anyone who lives without a belief in your God is only capable of reaching selfish conclusions and is incapable of adopting (perhaps even comprehending?) and acting upon a world view concerned with and based on consideration for their fellows, animals or surroundings?

No. I think people are perfectly capable on their own, due to their G-d given nature, to act this way.

My question runs deeper than that question. My question is: why do so many insist that only OUR perspective counts? Why do you reject G-d? Why is he made into a figment of the imagination? Why is the idea of a creation, and thus a creator, which is teleologically defensible, so anathema to so many people? Thats my question. I think a lack of a humility plays into ones answer to this question. One who accepts, and submits due to an inherent awareness of human finititude, and limitation.. One who sees in reality a divine order that can only have been created, and set up by a divine architect, is one who is truly, and in the most complete sense, humble.

One who avoids that question prefers his own soverignty, and his own human majesty than that of G-ds. He wants to ignore, and avoid, and consider irrelavant the question of a creator.

My question challenges Buddhists, Hindus, and Gnostics who have this attitude, just as much as it challenges nihilists and relativists.

I think accepting G-d runs the deepest depths that man can plumb. What is beyond G-d? Nothing. This doesnt accept that we cant know more. This merely accepts that we are not gods. That what we have, our wisdom, and our abilities are given to us. To use those abilities against He that gives them to us, as a way to learn about Him, is remarkably arrogant.

People with that attitude in a sense want to kick G-d out of the world. Man, wants to be G-d, in a sense, and not subnordinate himself to a rule of law that is beyond his own frail, and subjective perspective. Conscience, and thus justice becomes distorted because some men prefer to come to counter-intuitive conclusions to justify their god of 'necessity' or whatever other idol they supplant the true G-d with.

Morality, then, is the crux of this question. One who is humble accepts that the morality, and justice he abides by comes from without. That it is not man who makes these laws, but a G-d who made them of the most paramount importance. In Judaism this is called "Elohim", Law and Order. The simple idea of "dont do what is hateful to you to another". This name of G-d is beyond the human concept of "good with evil", that all good actions contain an evil, and all evil actions contain a good, therefore good and evil are unavoidably intertwined, making all moral questions ambiguous, and relative. Elohim, demands that we acknowledge that man must abide by the law and order the creator established, and that we use that piece of G-d within us - conscience - to navigate through life. One who lives this way, comes closer to the higher name יהוה , which in Hebrew simply means "being", or eternity.

One who rejects this principle, imagining that these are simply "stories" is one who is very much stuck in his own individuality, and thus arrogant towards that which we he should be most humble. Submitting to G-d is a profound "reality check". Avodah in Hebrew, service, also implies a slave. We are in other words enslaved to G-d whether we like it or not. But, better to be a slave to a G-d of Justice, law and order, than to human beings, or the passions, ignoring the ultimate reality, and the ultimate signifiance of our existence: We are servants of G-d, whether we want to admit it or not. Eventually, this understanding will emerge. Your view, and the catholic churchs view, will dissipate as if it had never existed at all, because one cannot deny the eternal reality.

One of the odd things about G-d is that he does use evil to bring about good. This is the root meaning behind the 7 days of creation. 6 days of work, and 1 day of rest. 6 days of building up toward an ultimate pupose - developing the world towards its perfection - and a day of rest, of eternity, of Shabbat. G-d "rests" on this day because man has lived up to his divine purpose - he has made himself into B'tzelem Elohim - in the image of G-d, of Law and Order. Because of his doing this, G-d has become one with man. Man therefore no longer relates to G-d as "another", and so in that sense 'G-d rests'. Right after the 6 days of creation, the bible finally introduces the name of יהוה, together with אֱלהִים, meaning the name of Eternity, has been merged with the name of limitation (Elohim having the same gematria as HaTeva, nature).

(something which could quite easily interpreted as a threat) alongside the suggestion that everyone should all be bloody, sorry, profoundly grateful, to your idea of God could easily be read as bigoted and holding more potential for damage or hostility than peace.

I meant nothing ominous by it. Its only my belief that true peace comes when man submits to a higher power than anything he created.

I also dont think this understanding will come through war. It'll come in time, when it is ready.

Here's one thing we might be able to agree upon which I don't think is too outrageous: I won't automatically dismiss the humanity (compassion, empathy, altruism) of another solely due a particular personal belief if you don't.

I try to respect all people. I respect them, and their actions, but not their beliefs. If they do good. Thats great. But ultimately i have to aswell consider the reasonings behind their actions.

Humanism isnt a very strong standard for universal morality. The greatest moral failings in mankinds history have occurred in societies who decided what was moral, and what wasnt ie; Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, or even China today.

reply to post by dontreally


I think more could be gained from people looking in to themselves and seeing their own short comings and darker corridoors. Then projecting that knowlege out in to the world. Ive learned a lot about human nature by looking at why i get angry and upset or feel happy and enjoy certain things. You develop a real empathy which in turn gives you the ability to understand peoples problems and help them if they want to be helped.

While i have no problem with peoples faiths. I think it can sometimes confuse people and thats where the dillusional ellements or the abusive misinterpratations come in to it. Faith is a wonderfull thing on a personal basis, because you've no need to question your own belief. When you try to project this faith on to others is when the divisions and conflicts arise.

were all asking the same questions of ourselves. The answers that we find satisfy ourselves. Thats how it should remain. Any attempt to pass these beliefs on to others is usually bred from the ego more than anything else.