What is the Position of Christian Women? Mighty Men?

So women could not teach and have authority over men in their new faith, and they had to be in silence.
That context doesn't really change anything.
Clearly the author is instructing on the female gender in general, and not any specific women.
1 Timothy 2: 13-15: Women's secondary position is because Eve was deceived and broke God's law.
They are also not "saved" like men (or what current Christians consider salvation based on decontextualized and recombined verses):

But a woman will be saved through having children, if she perseveres in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

It's really very straight forward, and fits well with the rest of the Pauline Doctrine.
It's one of those uncomfortable verses that are overlooked, although it's impossible for literalists to explain it away with context. The only context is that these men were patriarchal misogynists, and reflected the wider culture at the time.
I wonder how the Westboro fundamentalists read these verses, since they always send their women to make public spectacles of themselves. Perhaps somebody ought to give them some of their own medicine and tell them that if they don't shut up and repent they will "break the gates of hell wide open" when they die.

reply to post by hawaii50th


I could go on and explain it but here is an article that does a good job of it.

He rightly said that we cannot simply explain away the passage and ignore it, but he also rightly said that the application is not to ban women from having short hair. He went on to explain that there were many many temple prostitutes in Corinth around the time that Paul was writing this letter, and the way that temple prostitutes identified themselves as such was by shaving their heads. So when Paul is saying it is “disgraceful” for a woman who is a member of the church to “shave her head” he is saying that women who are a part of the family of God should not dress like prostitutes.

livegenerously.wordpress.com...

The letters are in the bible so that we can understand things we are not to do. It was not about women not shaving their heads and being bad but ex or supposedly ex-prostitutes continuing in the practice of shaving their heads. In other words they did not change their ways and Paul was correcting them through instruction.

And if the exact same logic that the presenter applied to 1 Corinthians 11 were applied to 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2, passages often cited by those who argue women should not be pastors, then it would be clear that these passages are teaching something different entirely. To briefly (and admittedly inadequately) summarize them, 1 Corinthians 14 is saying that uneducated persons should not disrupt worship by constantly asking questions in public but rather should seek answers to their questions in private and the 1 Timothy 2 passage is inspired by the fact that in that culture women were especially prone to influence by pagan cults in the culture and thus should not be permitted to teach at Christian gatherings. I would suggest that today anyone who has been recently influenced by false teaching should undergo a period of “learning with all submissiveness” (1 Tim. 2:11) before teaching others.

If one takes the text out of context it becomes confusing and things are interpreted in an incorrect manner. When this happens the teachings become not of God and this is where fear and hatred come from. Just as people always generalize and say Christians hate this or that type of person. When really a Christian should hate nothing more than the sin and love the person. In that same note just because I love a person does not mean I have to accept or condone something I see as a sin.

People also seem to think that Christians do not sin or think they do not sin. Granted some who call themselves Christian say they do not sin but they are lying to themselves or others. All Christians sin, the journey to perfection is not over until one is dead, only after we lose our flesh and worldly bodies will we ever be truly free of sin.

Raist

reply to post by Raist

The thing with the hair is for women converts to Christianity and for how Christian women should always present themselves.
As for women not being pastors is understood as well, today is exactly what's happening with new age teaching as well as so called Christian churches teaching false doctrine where the pastors are women
As for new age teaching Oprah Winfrey is a very good example of false teachings.
Yes, the letters are for our instruction.
Thank you, very good explanations.
Also Christians do either get put on a pedestal or even put themselves on pedestals. No one is perfect and without sin.


Below is instruction for marriage,

Ephesians 5:20-33 (Amplified Bible) 20 At all times and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father. 21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). 22 Wives, be subject (be submissive and adapt yourselves) to your own husbands as [a service] to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the Head of the church, Himself the Savior of [His] body. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 So that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word, 27 That He might present the church to Himself in glorious splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such things [that she might be holy and faultless]. 28 Even so husbands should love their wives as [being in a sense] their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and carefully protects and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30 Because we are members (parts) of His body. 31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is very great, but I speak concerning [the relation of] Christ and the church. 33 However, let each man of you [without exception] love his wife as [being in a sense] his very own self; and let the wife see that she respects and reverences her husband [that she notices him, regards him, honors him, prefers him, venerates, and esteems him; and that she defers to him, praises him, and loves and admires him exceedingly].

1 Peter 3:2 (Amplified Bible) 2When they observe the pure and modest way in which you conduct yourselves, together with your reverence [for your husband; you are to feel for him all that reverence includes: to respect, defer to, revere him--to honor, esteem, appreciate, prize, and, in the human sense, to adore him, that is, to admire, praise, be devoted to, deeply love, and enjoy your husband].

reply to post by hawaii50th


I only have one thing to say about Oprah.

She is wrong on many levels. She misleads many who follow her every word.





Raist

reply to post by Raist

Yes I agree totally. I've seen that video yesterday, and it sickens me, in fact I can't stand to even look at her. I don't want to judge her that's for God to do. But I find it hard to look at someone that is committing evil acts against God.

I'd like to add to this discussion...

We are all equal includes women and men...

If you step outside your bible for a minute you can find scriptures that tell you Jesus treated everyone equally, even though Mary was his favorite...

Theres also some debate over a postion that women were the ones that were supposed to head the church not men...

Either way, women are equal to men in all ways spiritual... Physically is a different matter...

Women are much more fun physically as well though...

Not that i'd know about men...that way

Sounds to me as though a Calvinist revival has blown thru your town.
From my POV, Some men have always been resentful of a woman's ability to reproduce,,,the Christian Bible is an example of this. In ancient cultures, women were revered for it.
Bring on the flames, lol
lklouise.com...

reply to post by Akragon

Hi there Akragon, you got to be a woman Yes you are totally right, we are equal as human beings, it's all about marriage and how the two suppose to be to each other, loving each other completely and faithfully.

As for women being the leaders of the church, I won't go there with you. Because it would be futile on my part.

And yes your right again about women being more fun physically, especially to play with, yes they are fun to play with.

As for the spiritual part, men think with the brain and women think with the heart, so you put the two together and two makes one complete.

Originally posted by Elostone
Sounds to me as though a Calvinist revival has blown thru your town.
From my POV, Some men have always been resentful of a woman's ability to reproduce,,,the Christian Bible is an example of this. In ancient cultures, women were revered for it.
Bring on the flames, lol
lklouise.com...

Please show me where in the bible that men are resentful of women having babies?

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by Akragon

 

Hi there Akragon, you got to be a woman

Yes you are totally right, we are equal as human beings, it's all about marriage and how the two suppose to be to each other, loving each other completely and faithfully.

As for women being the leaders of the church, I won't go there with you. Because it would be futile on my part.

And yes your right again about women being more fun physically, especially to play with, yes they are fun to play with.

As for the spiritual part, men think with the brain and women think with the heart, so you put the two together and two makes one complete.

nope sorry, all man here!

Any words that demand stripping basic human liberties of any person are lies meant to subjugate and control, and not the words of any God I'm willing to believe in. Those are the words of wicked men, not God, and we should all liberate our minds from their influence. Anything that tells us we are anything but equal brothers and sisters should be cut away and discarded.

There are many, many men who think only with their hearts. There are many, many women who think only with their heads. A doctrine of "men must only be this way, and women must only be that way" dishonors the intricacies of both sexes and the human spirit as a whole.

reply to post by Akragon


Than your just a guy that loves women. I know I sure do, and that can only get me in trouble.

reply to post by hawaii50th

The Bible degrades motherhood, marriage,
and women's reproductive functions:
Matthew 24:19



"[woe] unto them that are with child"
Luke 2:22



Mary is unclean after birth of Jesus
14:26



You cannot be Jesus's disciple unless you
hate your mother, father, and family
20:34-35



Better chance to get to heaven if you don't marry
I Corinthians
11:3-15



Man is the head of the woman; only man
is in the image and glory of God
14:24-35



Women, keep in silence; may only learn from husbands
Ephesians 5:22-33



"Wives, submit..."
Colossians 3:18



More "Wives, submit yourselves..."

I Timothy 2:9



Women adorn yourselves in shamefacedness

2:11-14



Women should learn in silence in all subjection;
Eve was sinful, Adam blameless

2:15
Ephesians 5:22 33



Women will not die in childbirth if they
"continue in faith, charity and holiness"

I Peter 3:17



Women should talk to husbands in fear

Genesis 2:22



Woman created from Adam's rib

3:16



"In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children."

Leviticus 12:1-4



Women who have sons are unclean 7 days

12:4-7



Women who have daughters are unclean 14 days

15:19-23



Menstrual periods are unclean

Numbers 5:13-31



Unpassable adulteress test encourages
jealousy and cruelty

31:17-35



"Virgins" are war booty

Deuteronomy
22:13-21




Bride who is not virgin must be stoned to death

22:28



Unmarried rape victim must marry her rapist

24:1



Men can divorce women on the spot

28:11-12



Delicate women will be forced to eat their children

I Samuel 21:4-5



Men are holy if they stay away from women

Job 14:1-4



"Who can bring a clean thing out of
an unclean [woman]? not one"

Psalm 51:5



"In sin did my mother conceive me"

Isaiah 13:16



"their wives [shall be] ravished"

Hosea 13:16



"Their infants shall be dashed in pieces and
their women with child shall be ripped up."

Dont intend to get off topic here
silly 2nd

any ideas what this is supposed to mean then?

Isaiah 4:1
And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel

our own bread and apparel?

The term "Seven Seas" appears as early as 2300 BC in Hymn 8 of the Sumerian Enheduanna to the goddess Inanna.[1] Sumer was a civilization and historical region in southern Mesopotamia, modern Iraq. It is one of the earliest known civilizations in the world and is known as the Cradle of Civilization. The Sumerian civilization spanned over 3000 years.
[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Seas

The Volcanic Seven Summits are the highest volcanoes on each of the seven continents, just as the Seven Summits are the highest peaks (irrespective of geological origin) on each of the seven continents.

Isaiah 54:5
For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.

Revelation 5:6
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Romans14.5
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

Corinthians 11:12
For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.

1Corinthians7
the married cares about the things of the world—how they may please the other.

But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none

Romans 8
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 18:19
“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

reply to post by nithaiah

You don't get it of what I mean. There is a difference between normal up bringing of men and women. Those that no their identity that have a good view about themselves.
On the other side of the coin, of course men can think from the heart and women from their brains, but what I'm talking about is a different thing.

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by nithaiah

 

You don't get it of what I mean. There is a difference between normal up bringing of men and women. Those that no their identity that have a good view about themselves.
On the other side of the coin, of course men can think from the heart and women from their brains, but what I'm talking about is a different thing.

"Normal" is nonexistent. We should not be programmed to fill certain slots. We should be free to choose the lives we live, in as much as it harms none. My disagreement with it has nothing to do with a lack of comprehension. My disagreement comes from a fundamental resistance to being forced into a mold that does not fit.

Originally posted by nithaiah

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by nithaiah

 

You don't get it of what I mean. There is a difference between normal up bringing of men and women. Those that no their identity that have a good view about themselves.
On the other side of the coin, of course men can think from the heart and women from their brains, but what I'm talking about is a different thing.

"Normal" is nonexistent. We should not be programmed to fill certain slots. We should be free to choose the lives we live, in as much as it harms none. My disagreement with it has nothing to do with a lack of comprehension. My disagreement comes from a fundamental resistance to being forced into a mold that does not fit.

So you don't know anyone that has a great marriage? Where one or the other hung in there, stuck it out through thick and thin only to develop into the perfect marriage. Or those that had a perfect marriage right from the beginning? Of course there is always bumps along the way, but they made it work because they were committed and they had faith.
See to me these are normal people, they didn't have the attitude of quitters.

reply to post by hawaii50th


No, I've never met anyone with a perfect marriage who had a set of standards for what their spouse should be based on a book that has no modern relevance. I've met people with imperfect marriages, who toughed it out, and who looked at each other as equals.

My grandparents, for example. My grandmother was as hardheaded, vocal, and independent as they come. My grandfather was a lot less so, but definitely his own man. They both worked, my grandmother was in the Civil Service and flew airplanes. My grandfather was in the airforce and flew airplanes. He retired before she did. They built their house together from the ground up with the sweat of their brow. They raised my mother to be as strong and independent as they both were, to make her own decisions, and to be nobody's inferior. They got crap about it from all of their "normal" Catholic friends, that their lifestyle was zany and Biblically wrong. But they were married til the day my grandfather died in 1971, after forty good, long, strong years of a marriage that WWII and Korea should rightfully have broken.

Another old couple who were less "out there" than my wonderful grandparents, had a similar thing going. They were equals. They had a ministry together, and both were as wise and kind as two people could possibly be. He preached. She preached. Neither of them were homemakers, but they "mysteriously" raised five excellent, intelligent, goodhearted kids whose families in adulthood were something to bring joy to anybody's heart, and all of them successful in their chosen paths. Again, none of their daughters were exclusively homemakers. None of their sons were exclusively breadwinners. They shared in all duties, cooking, teaching the kids, working, doing clothes and dishes. There was no "You do this, and I'll do that, because you're a woman and I'm your husband." Again, they stayed married until Mrs. Awesome died. They had been married for sixty two years.

Judge a tree by its fruit. A husband and wife who are equal, and who do not relegate each other to fill a predetermined role, are the ones who succeed. A friend of mine is currently trapped in a marriage like that. He is expected to be the most honorable husband, working like a dog every day, while his wife stays at home with the kids to mind the house, working like a dog every day. She does as she's told. He wishes she'd argue. She wishes he weren't so bossy. But their respective parents would disown them if they did it any differently. They have both begun to resent each other beyond words, and it is no wonder...they are not equals. If they make it beyond the year in their biblically perfect marriage, I will be most surprised.

I can admit that I know people with unusual marriages who fail utterly, even when both partners share the burden. I know people with traditional marriages who have so far succeeded. The key is whether or not both partners are happy with what's going on, with their position. And to say that there is one prescription for success in marriage, determined by the woman's position to her husband, is to say that all people must wear the same size hat.

reply to post by nithaiah

Unbelievable. It was all in front of you the whole time, and you never noticed it as such of what this post is exactly about. Is any of these people alive today?