SCI/TECH: Monkey Apes Upright-Walking Humans

TEL AVIV, Israel - A juvenile monkey at a local zoo started walking upright, as we humans do, after recovering from a life threatening illness. The true origin of this strange behavior remains to be found. However, according to the zoo's veterinarian brain damage could be a possible explanation.




This is something of high importance, the latest challenge to ancient existing religious ideas and believes. I guess God didn't just �click the switch.�


[edit on 21-7-2004 by Banshee]

that one was weird so maybe we after all is just some braindamaged apes

Natasha, "The Missing Link?" (AP)

[edit on 21-7-2004 by Hoaks]

I didn't know evolution happens that fast!

May be the "stomach ailment" is still causing pain and may be it hurts less when she walks on two of her legs. Just an adaption!


[edit on 21-7-2004 by jp1111]

This is in no way evolution, as single creatures don't evolve by definition. This has nothing to do with her DNA.

Freaky and cool nonetheless, though.

It reminds me of the humanzee: www....-------------------------/library/cryptozoology/humanzee/

Although the humanzee doesn't look like any chimpanzee you have ever seen. They did DNA tests on Oliver the humanzee and found that there is one portion of his DNA that is different from other chimpanzees, and no, it isn't human DNA. :-D

www.jengajam.com...



[edit on 7-21-2004 by EmbryonicEssence]

5 million years is no where near long enough for apes to evolve into Humans (If you beleive in the evo story). Science knows this but it stills tries to tell us.

The process was speeded.........!

This is a pretty incredible adaptation - I wonder if when the pain subsides she'll resume her natural quadrapedal position....I'm getting images of Planet of the Apes in my mind now....lol - j/k

Originally posted by Esoterica
This is in no way evolution, as single creatures don't evolve by definition. This has nothing to do with her DNA.

Freaky and cool nonetheless, though.

In case, if you're referring to my post, I was making a joke about evolution happening that fast. I know how evolution happens (mutations in genes passing through generations, adaptations in new environments and developing new traits, etc.)

This actually could account for a missing evolutionary link. The one thing that set us apart.

It has been shown in past tests and cases that groups of primates who undergo a massive generational change (80%+ of the generation), will retain that change within the future. A prime example was in the news paper a month or two ago..

It was about two groups of baboons, located on either side of a garbage dump. They were both interested in a shipment of tossed meat, and got into a fight over it. The winning side had many large, agressive males, and they ended up getting all the meat they could take. Now, traditionally, Baboons can be quite abusive. They bully and hurt younger and female baboons, to retain fear, to hold rank, and rarely fight those equal to themselves. After the baboons got this meat, only the dominant males got to eat - it was thrown out because it had gone bad, and they all died.

Now, for the last 10 years or so, the group has been dominated by males who do not harm the young and the females, and the females seem to carry the power now. As new baboons are born or wander into the group, they learn of this new structure somehow, and end up fitting in. The males still frequently fight each other, but now more commonly on an equal footing for real rank, as opposed to bullying. It was very interesting to read.

Okay. So, if this chimp decided to stand upright because of an ailment to the stomach, then we have a probable development of upright humans in only select areas. If a stomach virus were travelling around a localised area long ago, then 4-5 entire 'clans' of our predecessors could have been seriously weakened temporarily, but then all those that survived ended up standing upright instead of alternating. Now you have 3-400 primates, in separate groups with their own cultures, all standing upright, and continuing the tradition. A primate wanders in, and is taught to stand instead of to crouch, just as its higher ranking fellows do. For centuries these expand, and, lets' suppose that the upright stance is advanageous - they could overtake and 'civilise' other groups.

As time went by, tradition would turn to instinct. The apes would gradually develop a bodily structure more suited to standing. As they stopped walking on their knuckles, they would have developed new uses for them, other than twigs to get ants, they could have picked things up to hit other apes with, they could have gained a different sense of balance, one that didn't necessitate a tail.

The lifestyle of such a group would soon become vastly different from that of the others - they would no longer be able to run from tree to tree as they once had, they would no longer be able to do so many things, and they would then gain other methods of compensation, like weapons, stealth, etc.. that could have outcompensated and sent the developing 'Humanity' into an upward spiral.

Such a drastic change, if large enough, could actually, literally, make natural evolution millions of times more probable. Instead of an ape becoming a man in 5 million years, it would be a massive group of upright apes, developing differently - this is amazing to say the least. Who'd have known...

nice....so we're all descendents of brain damaged apes with messed up stomachs

Originally posted by jp1111

Originally posted by Esoterica
This is in no way evolution, as single creatures don't evolve by definition. This has nothing to do with her DNA.

Freaky and cool nonetheless, though.

In case, if you're referring to my post, I was making a joke about evolution happening that fast. I know how evolution happens (mutations in genes passing through generations, adaptations in new environments and developing new traits, etc.)

I knew were joking, but I'm not sure that everyone here knew it as well. Figured I'd nip a problem in the bud

Originally posted by Viendin
This actually could account for a missing evolutionary link. The one thing that set us apart.

I found that very interesting!

A very good observation and an excellent example of Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium.

Actually, it's not an evolutionary change but a behavioral one.

The reason that apes usually don't walk upright is because their skeleton and muscular structure isn't built for it. When they're upright, they "walk" by swinging one leg and then the other (sort of like a person in two full-length leg casts.)

And (sigh) guys, we ARE NOT descended from apes/monkeys. Those are modern creatures. We're descended from hominids and our lineage split off over 15 million years ago: www.talkorigins.org...

It's strange that they refer to this ability as brain damage. I mean, this seems like a pretty incredible thing. And if all incredible things result from brain damage, you have to ask yourself...whos brain is really damaged?

Byrd,

Bear with me on this one..
Yes, in this case it's behavioral. But, what if the behaviour turned out to be beneficial, but only SOME of a troup of Monkeys, or Macaque's could force themselves to stand up that way, due to better motor control, or even slight differences in Body structure..
Being beneficial, it allowed them to survive.
Would it not then become evolutionary?

Originally posted by Byrd
www.talkorigins.org...

That site is awesome! And sufficiently just freaked me out.

Modern Man and Neanderthal shared the planet for close to a 100,000 years (Neanderthals in cold and Man at the equator)! With Neanderthals only dying out in the last 30,000 years?

You've got to think of Biblical stories of Giants raiding from the hills and Nephilim types differently considering that and the specualtion hominids have had speech ability for over 2 million years.

Oral traditions perhaps of man's encounter with Neanderthal?

[edit on 21-7-2004 by RANT]

Rant,

Thats what I think as well, myths and legends with a basis in fact.

That talkorigins website is awsome, as well..I stumbled on it about a year ago.
But not just Sapiens, and Neanderthalis,...Homo Erectus was still alive in some parts of the Far East, while Modern humans were on the planet..Quite a family!

I recall seeing a documentary, where they found the skull, and some bones, of
what looked like a Neanderthal/Modern Human Hybrid, I think it was a child.
It was found in the Middle east, lending support to the theory of yours..

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Byrd,

Bear with me on this one..
Yes, in this case it's behavioral. But, what if the behaviour turned out to be beneficial, but only SOME of a troup of Monkeys, or Macaque's could force themselves to stand up that way, due to better motor control, or even slight differences in Body structure..
Being beneficial, it allowed them to survive.
Would it not then become evolutionary?

Check out this image spacedoubt, which I'm not assuming you've never seen, but just for arguement sake....

modern-day chimp (closest to man's DNA strucutre) vs. Australopithicine (one of the earliest forms of mankind) vs. modern-day human pelvic, femur and foot structures....
This is what they say scientifically...

1. Chimpanzees are unable to extend their knee-joints to produce a straight leg in the stance phase.
   
2. Muscular power has to be exerted to support the body.
   
3. The constantly flexed position of the chimpanzee leg also mean there is no toe off and heel strike in the swing phase.
   
4. During bipedal walking the animal is forced to shift its upper body substantially from side to side with each step so to bring the center of gravity over the weight bearing leg.
   
5. The suite of anatomical adaptations that underlie human bipedalism is extensive and includes a curved lower spine, a shorter, broader pelvis, and an angled femur, which are served by reorganized musculature lengthened lower limbs and enlarged joint surface areas.
   

There is some evidence for bipedal apes tho...the Oreopithecus
www.findarticles.com...
www.primates.com...
www.sciencenews.org...

This very well could be some programmed survival mechanism that has been recessive - I'm guessing this will keep a few primatologists busy - but as I posted earlier, I think it's just a temporary relief - like Byrd said, a behavioral adaptation...

EnronOutrunHomerun,

Very interesting, and thanks for that.
Yes, I agree that this case was probably just for temporary relief.
Sometimes, when I get out of bed in the AM, I tend to walk a bit like
a Great ape..LOL.. It's a lower back thing!

But this other idea, the programmed recessive trait.
Is this similar to the Sabre toothed cats, that appeared, more than once,
in various places? Seems the canine tooth size allowed for the killing of Larger prey, but, hindered the capture of smaller prey.

Thanks again for the links...I love this stuff!

[edit on 21-7-2004 by spacedoubt]