I Dont understand the concept of sin....

I am having a very hard time with wat a sin is and the repurcusions of sins. For one, i understand that a sin is something u do that is agianst the guidelines of God, like the 10 commendmants (sp?).
Do u have to repent your sins everyday?....
Are all sins considered as bad as the next?...by that i mean is every sin considered the same?
If they are then do we have to repent every single sin we commit....like lying everytime we do....or is this suppose to be done every week at church or something??...
will i go to hell if i dont repent ALL my sins???

In addition i am completely baffled at how just saying ur sorry can lead to heaven. I mean if ur child was brutally murdered by someone who clearly planned the whole thing out and he jsut says "oh...i am sorry God"...then he is free. I dont understand how that could possibly be justified by God. I mean losing a child in a murder would be devastating and knowing that the killer will be in heaven has got to make u doubt some things. I see no justice in that..

. If you believe in Christianity well you are stuck with the original sin and that were all started, and then the Ten Commandments.

But for people that does not belief in Christianity and follows another religious belief this is not a problem. Right?


I believe religion is man made and so the bible, this mean that the meaning of sin is diferent for me than for you.

Originally posted by LuDaCrIs
I am having a very hard time with wat a sin is and the repurcusions of sins.

I don't have answers for your questions, but I do have my own understanding which I can share. Perhaps you can find the answers you seek through these explanations. Everything I say is from a "Christian" perspective. I believe what Christians believe, but I do not believe those beliefs are the only way to salvation. I also do not claim that my own understanding matches that of any particular Christian religion.

For one, i understand that a sin is something u do that is agianst the guidelines of God, like the 10 commendmants (sp?).

In simplest terms a sin is something that is not the will of God.

What is the will of God?

The simplest explanation the bible gives is thus:

Matthew 22: 36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Love God. Love your fellow men (which is also loving God because it is His will).

All other commandments fit into one of these two basic descriptions. Sins against God or sins against man.

This "unconditional love" is not haughty or proud, in fact it cannot exist without humility.

The bible says, "Judge not lest ye be judged". Only God is worthy to judge. Indeed judgement can not be made in humility. That is to say judgement requires some amount of pride.

Of the sins I have considered, all could be expressed in terms of Pride and judgment of some sort.

In my opinion, humility is the greatest lesson in the bible. This is the root of "original sin". The very idea, "I can know as much as God" is pride pure and simple.

Pride comes with free will-- the choice to be humble and love God with all your heart and mind and soul, or not.

The teachings of Jesus were teachings of humility. If you desire, you can open the Bible to any of the four gospels, and you will find a teaching for some aspect of humility. It is not an "easy" path to follow.

That should be enough to absorb concerning pride and humility.

Do u have to repent your sins everyday?....Are all sins considered as bad as the next?...by that i mean is every sin considered the same?
If they are then do we have to repent every single sin we commit....like lying everytime we do....or is this suppose to be done every week at church or something??...
will i go to hell if i dont repent ALL my sins???

If you have a close relationship with God all your sins will be forgiven. When I discovered (enough evidence of) God, I had 8 year worth of Atheist beliefs and all the sins that went with them to repent. I couldn't even begin to remember ALL of them. I couldn't make a list, I didn't even know where to begin. While I was praying, I simply said "I am sorry for all of that (vulgar expletive). Uh, If that offended you, sorry about that too."

God knows all the nature of man. He knows why you committed the sins, he knows when, he knows how. If you truly believe and ask, all your sins will be forgiven whether you remember doing them or not.

God knows what is in your heart. He knows if you are sincere in your apology. He understands the choices you made. A great sin to you, is a small matter to God for he knows what is in your heart. If you truly believe and ask, all your sins will be forgiven whether they are "great" or "small".

According to the Bible, the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Leaders of some Christian church some time said this was "permenantly rejecting God". This is good enough of a definition for our purposes.

In addition i am completely baffled at how just saying ur sorry can lead to heaven. I mean if ur child was brutally murdered by someone who clearly planned the whole thing out and he jsut says "oh...i am sorry God"...then he is free. I dont understand how that could possibly be justified by God. I mean losing a child in a murder would be devastating and knowing that the killer will be in heaven has got to make u doubt some things. I see no justice in that..

As I said above:
God knows what is in your heart. He knows if you are sincere in your apology. He understands the choices you made. A great sin to you, can be a small matter to God for he knows what is in your heart. If you truly believe and ask, all your sins will be forgiven whether they are "great" or "small".

The inverse of this is also true.

God knows what is in your heart. He knows if you are not sincere in your apology. He understands the choices you made. A small sin to you, can be a great matter to God for he knows what is in your heart ...

Judgement is for God alone. He will decide what is just.

.




[Edited on 19-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]

Sin is to fall short. This means that all humanity is in a state of sin since the fall. Adam and Eve chose to trust Satan instead of God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They probably thought that if they were like God knowing what is right and wrong they would choose the right and reject the wrong. It didn't happen, they immediately knew their state...naked, and tried to hide it...then they hid themselves from God and blamed each other for their fallen state. Man continued to try to be like God so He gave the law to show them His nature, in essence He was saying, 'OK you've tried to be like me since the fall, so I'm writing in stone My nature to show you that you can't do it. He showed in the sacrifices the only way for atonement. Adam and Eve clothed themselves with vegetation, God clothed them with the sacrifice. Cain gave an offering of vegetables, Abel gave an offering of a sacrificed animal.
We cannot do anything about our sin state, that's why Christ had to die. When He died the law died with Him, we now are covered by grace.
We don't have to change to be a Christian, there are no rules. What we have to do is ask Christ to live through us. He does the work of changing us. If we try to ACT like a christian the focus is on ourselves, when we focus on ourselves we become self-righteous. We can't do anything to save ourselves He does it all......Just let Him do it and don't listen to those who tell you you have to change yourself.

Sin is disobeying the laws God has inplace that would desroy sin and it's problems and lead to godlike living on our part. But sin is also simply living your life rejecting and /or apart from God.

I also need to say that a true christian knows that the only way back to God is through Christ. There aren't many paths just one, Jesus.

Originally posted by dbrandt
I also need to say that a true christian knows that the only way back to God is through Christ. There aren't many paths just one, Jesus.

Who gave you the right to judge if any Christian is true?

I'm debating on whether or not, I should even bother to express my views on this topic. I've debated and campaigned and protested, and so on, for many years, explaining, enlightening, and trying to bring awareness to the general public for more positive understanding. It was recently, (two years ago, or maybe longer) that I retired my active post as the High Priestess of Silvertree Grove Open Circle, and turned it over to a woman I trust. I am now an Elder.
I'll merely say this, I agree with some Christian views, and I permanently disagree with other views. Divine Spirit, by whatever name anyone calls it, is a lot more understanding of human nature and experience than anyone can possibly give due credit. I don't think, Spirit would be shortsighted, as to leave but one and only one key in the Entire Universe, that It created, and expect us as human beings to understand all of Its' secrets and mysteries. As it is, we humans grasp at straws, just trying to understand our very own nature, looking within, without, and around us, in wonderment, and with a child's eye. We are doing well, just to make any connection with Spirit to improve our lives and make them better. However the good news is, we can make that connection, each in our own way, our own time, and with our own understanding of it. Just my 2�.

When somebody is a Christian believer is easier for them to explain the sin issue.

To me the sin follows more on moral values and the law of man in earth than in the myth of original sin and bible teachings, why? because at the end it comes to personal interpretation depending on beliefs and the way you were brought up.

I don't believe on bible original sin myth so my view of sin is more base on the old say about the good or bad depending on society views of good and bad and the laws that protect these views.

I believe in a creator of all things but I also believe that this creator have given humanity the choice of the way it should choose to live his life.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Who gave you the right to judge if any Christian is true?

God alone knows who belong to Him. I said there are real christians and those who believe they are but aren't. The parable on the wheat and tares is about this.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Who gave you the right to judge if any Christian is true?

God alone knows who belong to Him. I said there are real christians and those who believe they are but aren't. The parable on the wheat and tares is about this.

Who gave you the right to judge if any Christian is real?

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]

No one needs permission to judge right from wrong, truth from deception, or a fool from a wise man.

There is PLENTY of good reason to judge a christian for his truthfulness. Nothing is as offensive to real christians as those "christians" who tell us never to judge this or that, and to withhold condemnation. It is not consitent with being a good father to ignore evil and let it ride.

That's what the outcome of such a teaching is: No one will judge evil, and because no one is putting evil in check, it will creep up and plot against you. Evil is agressive and cancerous, it grows wherever it can grab a hold. It must be throughly and vigorously put down by the righteous people. The conseqences of failure to do so are the eventually overrun of your nation and the collaspe of your people.

It's like making bricks for your city - you can't let the sand and the dung get in, or your bricks are ruined and the buildings will collapse.

Many christians are hypocrites. They are the most viscious of persons inwardly, they appear clean on the outside, and love authority over others. They pursue their religion as a tool for their own power, so others might revere and respect them, or to advance among the people. None of them have pursued real divinity.

Obedience before other mortal beings is offensive if not given for the correct reasons. Truly, it is better to bow before Jesus than before your preacher, and certinaly better to serve the will of Christ than the will of the marketplace. Yet how many Christians spend the majority of their time and effort working for the beast?

What kinds of words do they say in the office, or at the game? Are these real Christians? I think they have just taken the name and have borrowed it at interest. Will they be able to repay? I wonder.

It is the duty of every man with knowledge to strike his rod against foul things. When you were 9, and had a stick in your hand, wasn't it best to find the rotten plants, or the thorn bush, and strike it to pieces? That is the nature of your origin, men.

Now I call upon you to aim your marks better, and to hit the corruption that lurks in men, and in women, and in the works of the devil. Be it a small hit, or a nuclear cannon, hit your marks and strike against the face of your enemy.

Hit with words, philosophy, revelations, and wisdom - use reason against the children of darkness and they will writhe and burn.

Grow in wisdom, our enemy is not invincible, nor are his numbers without counting, his strength is but a strong wind, and his presense is a puffed bit of rice. How great and firm it appears from afar, yet it is a rotten edifice. Behold, chunks of it are able to be taken by the hands of children, let it be torn down.

Ark

There is PLENTY of good reason to judge a christian for his truthfulness. Nothing is as offensive to real christians as those "christians" who tell us never to judge this or that, and to withhold condemnation. It is not consitent with being a good father to ignore evil and let it ride.

There is no reason to judge any man. Judgment is for God alone.

There is a difference between passing judgment and recognizing good and evil.

I recognize the goodness of Jesus and his teachings.
I am certain you recognize this goodness too.
But would you then say, "Good Jesus"?

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.


I believe God wants all men to love him with all their hearts and minds and souls. It is not my place to say of a Muslim or a Jew, "You cannot love God with all your heart unless you accept Jesus as your Savior." Nor is it my place to say "God will not love you unless you accept Jesus as your Savior"

Love is unconditional.

1 Corinthians 13: 1 - 13 (New American Standard)
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]

Good grief Raphael_UO!

What is the point of gaining wisdom and knowledge, if it is not in the judgement of good and evil.

Now since I'm a judge between good and evil, I can judge good and evil in people too.

It is one of the worst corruptions of Christian doctrine to just flat out say that Judgement is for God alone. That is not the task of righteous men. Jesus taught his desciples to be wise in judgment, not cruel and jealous.

Jesus said, Judge righteous judgment. He did not say, allow every thing the same permission. No fool would believe that a king or leader of men can do his job without judging both the character and intent of people. We to, as citizens, must judge matters of law, state, and legislation.

Can you be a real citizen, yet never weigh anything in judgment? That would be a neat trick, please show me how.

Jesus was able to judge. Jesus was able to teach us what He understood, he caused us to learn and grow. JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY, not like the accusers of mankind, not like the devils who accuse men for this and that.

It is not sensible to refrain from all judgment and hide. That is not manliness at all, if all men of America were to stop judging things, and let things go, then evil would rule absolutely. Gee, doesn't it almost already?

Maybe you should use the good mind you earned by your faith and learning and start guiding others. If I were master of the house, and all of my servants refused to take responsibility and do things that were difficult, I would remove them from my service, and acquire others who would take better care of my house.

Jesus prepared us to receive the gifts of heaven. How can you give a gift to people who are not able to protect it, or to even voice their will?

Christians are free to judge matters wisely. I am certain that every single one who says" don't judge" or "judgment is for God alone" will see the silliness in this kind of thinking.

Please understand - I am not saying that we should nitpick one another. I am saying that we should confront evil however we can, whenever we are able. We should judge evil together, as a righteous people, without any shame.

It's ok for a righteous man to take thought, and say, this is evil, or this is good, if his heart be for the establishment of good over evil. It is ok for him to teach this judgment to his children, to his neighbors, and to his brothers in the faith.

What he have today is a lack of judgment for ANYTHING at all. Because we were told that Jesus said "Don't judge" now no one speaks out against anything at all. Do you think that was the intent of the Master?

In fact, I don't want to hear you quote scripture anymore. I want you to analyse the intent of Christ. I want you to tell me what he was trying to acocmplish among the children of men, and the meaning of his lessons. No more quotes. You have read enough, close the book and speak from your own heart.

If you have the knowedge of all the things you have quoted, then you are a truly mighty judge, and can tell me the state of affairs for any given matter. We NEED more judges, more WISE judges, and we need to hear their correction.

What do you say to that?

Ark

Originally posted by Arkaleus
What is the point of gaining wisdom and knowledge, if it is not in the judgement of good and evil.

There is no need to judge good and evil, only to recognize it. Embrace the good, and push away the evil.

It is one of the worst corruptions of Christian doctrine to just flat out say that Judgement is for God alone. That is not the task of righteous men. Jesus taught his desciples to be wise in judgment, not cruel and jealous.

Why call men righteous? There is none righteous but one, that is God.

Jesus said, Judge righteous judgment.

More accurately he said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. "

And if you read it in context, you would see he is replying to the accusation of being possessed with a devil because he healed someone on the Sabbath.

Indeed, this is not to say you may judge what only God can judge, but rather that one should not decide if something is Evil based on appearance alone.

No fool would believe that a king or leader of men can do his job without judging both the character and intent of people. We to, as citizens, must judge matters of law, state, and legislation.

Recognizing a man's character and passing judgment on that man's character are not the same, and can be held seperate. Recognizing a man's intent is not the same as passing judgment on that intent.

We as citizens do have obligations to our country. If I were to serve on a jury, the evidence allowed me to recognize whether a person committed an action. If I recognized that the action was committed, I would say "I believe he did the action." If I did not, I would say the opposite. I would not say, "He is guilty."

Can you be a real citizen, yet never weigh anything in judgment? That would be a neat trick, please show me how.

Vote for those who would serve your community in a manner that does not oppose that which you believe.
Vote for taxes which serve the needs of your community.
Vote for laws which do not conflict with your own beliefs.

Do not say a law is good. Do not say a politician is bad.

Jesus was able to judge. Jesus was able to teach us what He understood, he caused us to learn and grow. JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY, not like the accusers of mankind, not like the devils who accuse men for this and that.

I have tried not to quote scriptures, but I cannot answer this without doing so.

John 8:14-16 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Indeed, Jesus is able to judge. He did not. But when he returns, he will.

It is not sensible to refrain from all judgment and hide. That is not manliness at all, if all men of America were to stop judging things, and let things go, then evil would rule absolutely.

If all men of America would not judge, only women and the mentally ill would commit crimes.
One cannot murder, without judging another unworthy of life.
One cannot steal, without judging himself more worthy to posses the item.
One cannot rape, without judging a woman unworthy of the choice to consent.
...

Maybe you should use the good mind you earned by your faith and learning and start guiding others.

I do. And, I am trying.

If I were master of the house, and all of my servants refused to take responsibility and do things that were difficult, I would remove them from my service, and acquire others who would take better care of my house.

You can recognize they are not doing the job for which they are being paid. You can counsel them how to do their job. You can refuse to employ them unless they do their job. None of which requires saying "You are a bad employee"

Jesus prepared us to receive the gifts of heaven. How can you give a gift to people who are not able to protect it, or to even voice their will?

Have I not been voicing my beliefs?
Have I said "You are wrong"?
Can I not protect my beliefs by teaching others to understand that which I was taught?

Christians are free to judge matters wisely. I am certain that every single one who says" don't judge" or "judgment is for God alone" will see the silliness in this kind of thinking.

Christians have free will to choose between the will of God, and that which is not.

Please understand - I am not saying that we should nitpick one another. I am saying that we should confront evil however we can, whenever we are able. We should judge evil together, as a righteous people, without any shame.

It's ok for a righteous man to take thought, and say, this is evil, or this is good, if his heart be for the establishment of good over evil. It is ok for him to teach this judgment to his children, to his neighbors, and to his brothers in the faith.

What he have today is a lack of judgment for ANYTHING at all. Because we were told that Jesus said "Don't judge" now no one speaks out against anything at all. Do you think that was the intent of the Master?

Again I cannot respond without quoting scriptures

John 9:39-40 (KJV)
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
I understand this to be a lesson of humility and not being proud. One of not passing judgment on yourself.

Why do you suppose by saying "We see" their sin remained?

In fact, I don't want to hear you quote scripture anymore. I want you to analyse the intent of Christ. I want you to tell me what he was trying to acocmplish among the children of men, and the meaning of his lessons. No more quotes. You have read enough, close the book and speak from your own heart.

You ask me to speak from my heart, but tell me I cannot quote that which fills my heart. I have tried to do so.

We began by saying two different things. You have your view, I have mine.

Whenever someone attempts to teach, the student must first believe the teacher is credible. You do not know me. You do know how I lead my life. You do not know whether I do what I say. You know nothing about me. Why should you believe my words which are contrary to your beliefs?

I quote scriptures not to add to my credibility. But rather to teach the same message I received when reading the scriptures. Perhaps you will look at a verse and see something you have never seen before. I do not teach anything that Jesus did not teach.

The teachings of Jesus are of love and humility. Indeed these are the most precious of teachings.

If you have the knowedge of all the things you have quoted, then you are a truly mighty judge, and can tell me the state of affairs for any given matter. We NEED more judges, more WISE judges, and we need to hear their correction.

I have knowledge of nothing, only my understanding of that which is taught to me. It is not my place to judge. It is my place to teach that which I have been taught to understand.

.

[Edited on 21-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]

Originally posted by LuDaCrIs
I am having a very hard time with wat a sin is and the repurcusions of sins. For one, i understand that a sin is something u do that is agianst the guidelines of God, like the 10 commandants (sp?).
Do u have to repent your sins everyday?....
Are all sins considered as bad as the next?...by that i mean is every sin considered the same?
If they are then do we have to repent every single sin we commit....like lying everytime we do....or is this suppose to be done every week at church or something??...
will i go to hell if i dont repent ALL my sins???

In addition i am completely baffled at how just saying ur sorry can lead to heaven. I mean if ur child was brutally murdered by someone who clearly planned the whole thing out and he just says "oh...i am sorry God"...then he is free. I dont understand how that could possibly be justified by God. I mean losing a child in a murder would be devastating and knowing that the killer will be in heaven has got to make u doubt some things. I see no justice in that..

Well, as you can see, there are quite a few different beliefs about what exactly constitutes sin. If you are wanting to know what commandments Jesus gave to his followers, it is simply to love everyone, including your enemies, as yourself.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Of course, by following this basic principle, you can't help but follow all of the other commandments that are mentioned, such as:

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luke 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luke 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.
Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

In response to the second part of your question, no "Sorry" means anything, unless the person apologizing truly regrets what they have done wrong and endeavors to never repeat it. That doesn't relieve them from taking responsibility for their wrong doings while on Earth. In fact, if someone is truly sorry for what they have done, they will humbly accept the consequences of their actions.

As far as the afterlife, IMO, all souls rejoin the Infinite Spirit, except those who continue to cling to the material world, becoming "lost". I think that those souls become what we percieve to be ghosts and demons, and they will never be fulfilled unless they realize their true nature.

Crimes and wrong-doings we commit against each other in this world, are done by the flesh, not by our souls. Our souls do not influence us to do wrong, they just cannot stop our bodies, if they choose to do wrong. If our soul's voices are constantly stifled by our selfish behavior, I think they can lose their connection to the Source, even after the body dies, which is what causes them to become "lost" and unable to rejoin the Whole.

That is why repenting of one's sins is stressed so much; it requires us to give credence to our souls and to our universal connection with each other. Even those who don't believe in a God or in souls, know how much of a relief it is to own up to a mistake or "get something off one's chest". Just because someone doesn't believe there is a Superior Being, doesn't mean they can't experience the same peace that comes from loving their fellow man, and in doing so they are also loving "God" and keeping Its commandments.

One of the foremost problems in modern American Christianity is the persistent opposition against any concept of perfecting human beings on the earth.

It is the greatest insult to Christ, to say that none of the men on the earth are able to follow him. Who then, are the firstfuits of Christ? Who then, are those who he redeemed? You are arguing from the scripture, and that is why things don't make any sense.

Raphael_UO, I have no argument with you or your faith. But everyone wants to be lambs, everyone wants to be saved, but no one wants to do any work. If we are wronged, who do we go to see for redress? Do you want that person to be like you, afraid of using the sword of justice, unable to judge or condemn? That kind of judge I would not have.

It is possible to have perfect will, perfect intention, agreeance with the will of God. It is insulting and offensive to say to me, you cannot do it. Ha! Watch me.

If all men of America would not judge, only women and the mentally ill would commit crimes.

Hmm. I don't see the connection between not excersising the faculty of reason and judgment and the crimes of humanity. I don't follow you here.

I have to say Raphael_UO, we need to understand what we mean by "Judgement". I think it is in what I expect from men that we differ in. I expect men to be manly, and execute their will. Christ commanded men to be perfect, so that the execution of their will was in accordance with the Good Will of God.

I know what you will say: No one is worthy enough to do this. No one can know the will of God. No one can do anything at all! Such a silly state to bring an entire world to, isn't it?

What exactly is in the authority of man? What can men "do" and think? Isn't it funny that you place all these restrctions and guidelines on the thoughts and behaviors of man? And then you justify them with old quotes.

Please describe the perfect man to me. Please describe the perfect government. Can you do this? If you respond to me, I want you to describe those things to me.

Don't limit mankind. Don't put rules and laws on him. Don't limit yourselves! What reasons do you give for your laws? I'm not of the opinion that man needs meany laws, what he needs is a judge. We have many many laws because we don't have any judgment, no one to execute the hard task of destroying evil.

So then, servants of the house, which we all are, are you taking care of the business of the house, or are you letting the wolves run the show? Isn't it better to remove evil, and to rest? Become perfect in your intentions, and make your will perfect. At least towards mankind and his government.

That's all I really expect from you guys.

Ark



The scriptures teach us not to accuse and judge one another's actions lightly. But it has been blown out of proprotion to the degree that we are discouraged from judging ANYTHING at all. You did not address that from my first post. Please address this.

How are we to handle evil? It is not healthy to shrink away in silence and to hold one's peace when injustice or evil is done. That is not godliness, it is not courage. Christ will not reward you for this, neither will I.

I expect men to stand up for the oppressed, protect the meek, and drive back the filthy people that try to occupy and settle in the land. You do not feed the pigs with the food of your children, nor do you allow the wolves to lie with your chickens.

You don't let evil people sleep in your children's room, or teach them lies, so you must be a fatherly judge in this matter. That is what I am talking about. The scriputre warns us against making trouble for other people in the spirit of pettiness. That is what is meant. He did not mean to convince the judges of Israel to allow the criminals and murders their freedom, or to let people get away with murder.

That is why I have a problem with scriputre quoters. They aren't answering questions or debates with the quotes of other people. That's not thinking. That's not applying your own authority. That's not using the gift of God's intellect in your activities. That's what I expect from you.

We are not going to be a world of babies and sheep ruled by a great God. That is fantasy. We will be full men, and brave lads, and our place is a place of kings and priests. Those who are weak against evil, those who are not VALIENT in the work of godliness will not enter.

So where is your rod? Where is your sword? Where are the signs that show me you are a true warrior in the name of Christ? Real Christians are intelligent folks, they know what is

Originally posted by Arkaleus
One of the foremost problems in modern American Christianity is the persistent opposition against any concept of perfecting human beings on the earth.

It is the greatest insult to Christ, to say that none of the men on the earth are able to follow him. Who then, are the firstfuits of Christ? Who then, are those who he redeemed? You are arguing from the scripture, and that is why things don't make any sense.

Raphael_UO, I have no argument with you or your faith. But everyone wants to be lambs, everyone wants to be saved, but no one wants to do any work. If we are wronged, who do we go to see for redress? Do you want that person to be like you, afraid of using the sword of justice, unable to judge or condemn? That kind of judge I would not have.

It is possible to have perfect will, perfect intention, agreeance with the will of God. It is insulting and offensive to say to me, you cannot do it. Ha! Watch me.

All men are able to follow Christ. All one has to do is love. Love is the teaching of Jesus. Unconditional love comes only through humility, as love is never proud. It is not an "easy" thing to do.

No man is perfect. I am most certainly not perfect. I do the best I can. God knows man is not perfect, he offers forgiveness. I shape my actions, thoughts, and words to live my life the best I can and remain true to what I believe.

I suppose it depends on what you define as "work". I see leading this life as something that is not "easy". As Yoda would say the dark side is faster, easier but not better. It is easier to pass judgment than to lead a humble life. The "harder" of the two paths does require "work"

Hmm. I don't see the connection between not excersising the faculty of reason and judgment and the crimes of humanity. I don't follow you here

Quite simply, crimes against humanity are also sins against God. They are not the will of God. Love God, Love your fellow man (which is loving God because it is his will) is the simplest way I can express God's will.

Pride is the basis for all sins. It requires pride to pass judgment.

Stealing requires several steps:
1. Recognizing the lack of something "I don't have money".
2. Recognizing other people have that something "A bank has money".
3. Passing judgment "I need that money more than the bank".
4. Acting on that judgment. Robbing the bank.

Crimes require that "step" in which a judgment is made. Sometimes that step is not voiced. Sometimes it is voiced differently. But it is there.

I have to say Raphael_UO, we need to understand what we mean by "Judgement". I think it is in what I expect from men that we differ in. I expect men to be manly, and execute their will. Christ commanded men to be perfect, so that the execution of their will was in accordance with the Good Will of God.

Lets go back to that employee that was not doing his job.


Recognizing the lack of something: my house is not clean.
Acting on this revelation: I hire someone to clean my house.
Recognizing the lack of something: my house is still not clean.
Recognizing the cause: my employee is not doing what he is being paid to do.
Acting on this revelation: Counsel the employee on how to do his Job.
Recognizing the lack of something: my house is still not clean.
Recognizing the cause: my employee is still not doing what he is being paid to do.
Acting on this revelation: End the current employment of the employee, and find another employee.

Why did I fire the employee?
a. Because the employee was not doing the job he/she was hired to do.
b. Because he/she was a bad employee.

One of these answers require the judgment of which I am speaking.
The other answer is needed to make the judgment of which I am speaking.

What exactly is in the authority of man? What can men "do" and think? Isn't it funny that you place all these restrctions and guidelines on the thoughts and behaviors of man? And then you justify them with old quotes.

Please describe the perfect man to me. Please describe the perfect government. Can you do this? If you respond to me, I want you to describe those things to me.

For me to answer these questions I would have to pass judgment.

If you are asking me "How would I describe a man who does not sin?" I would direct you to read the stories in the bible about Jesus.

If you are asking me "How do you describe a government created by men who live their lives according to Jesus' teachings?", I have never considered this question. It would not be a "Christian state", as that would promote religious intolerance. It would not be a "Religious state", as that would promote intolerance of people who did not believe. As I sit here considering this question, I wonder if the people who drafted the Constitution of the US debated this very thing. As I wondered this I remembered some old quotes that I looked up to share.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
Patrick Henry

and

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
James Madison

And after consideration, I could not think to do anything differently then they. Except I would perhaps make clear to later generations that they have their freedoms because of the belief in God, and I would perhaps explain why this is so.

Edit: this is not to say that everything they believed and wrote down would be included. As there are some worldly things they included which no longer apply in this day and age.

Don't limit mankind. Don't put rules and laws on him. Don't limit yourselves!

Oddly enough this is what I am saying too. Love God is the only rule or law. Actions taken by man can limit his ability to love God. Don't limit yourself. Don't limit those you teach.

What reasons do you give for your laws? I'm not of the opinion that man needs meany laws, what he needs is a judge. We have many many laws because we don't have any judgment, no one to execute the hard task of destroying evil.

I give only one law. Love God. Love all men(which is also loving God for it is also his will) What reason? It is the will of God.
Man only needs one judge. God.
Evil is a reflection of sin. Sins are actions which are not the will of God. The will of God is to Love God. Removing evil from this world starts within one's self. When one understands one can teach others to do the same.

So then, servants of the house, which we all are, are you taking care of the business of the house, or are you letting the wolves run the show? Isn't it better to remove evil, and to rest? Become perfect in your intentions, and make your will perfect. At least towards mankind and his government.

This isn't biblical, but I have found truth in the words: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

The scriptures teach us not to accuse and judge one another's actions lightly. But it has been blown out of proprotion to the degree that we are discouraged from judging ANYTHING at all. You did not address that from my first post. Please address this

As you said, we must first understand what we mean when we say "judgment", I illustrated the difference to me in the example concerning an employee. If you understand the distinction I am making, you will understand what I mean when I say "judgment is for god alone"

If you do not understand, I will answer questions to help you understand the distinction. Don't misunderstand me, I do understand what you are saying.

How are we to handle evil? It is not healthy to shrink away in silence and to hold one's peace when injustice or evil is done. That is not godliness, it is not courage. Christ will not reward you for this, neither will I.

Recognizing something is evil, and then acting on that recognition is not the same as judging something evil.

I expect men to stand up for the oppressed, protect the meek, and drive back the filthy people that try to occupy and settle in the land. You do not feed the pigs with the food of your children, nor do you allow the wolves to lie with your chickens.

I expect men to learn and understand when they are taught about God's love, and then teach others. Some people do not understand. I share my own understanding so they learn. You do not allow your children to eat the food of pigs. You would not allow your chickens to seek out the wolf's den to sleep.

That is why I have a problem with scriputre quoters. They aren't answering questions or debates with the quotes of other people. That's not thinking. That's not applying your own authority. That's not using the gift of God's intellect in your activities. That's what I expect from you.

Do you think question "What does god want me to do?" is not answered in the Bible? One does not learn something without understanding. One does not understand until they think. Answering a question by quoting a scripture requires you to think to receive the answer. When you think you can understand. When you understand you will learn.

My last post I quoted scripture twice. The first was to back my words when I said, "while Jesus is able to judge, he did not. when he returns he will." as to refute what you were saying. The second was to make you think. Jesus taught about the same judgment as I do. Following that quote I asked a question to direct your understanding.

We are not going to be a world of babies and sheep ruled by a great God. That is fantasy. We will be full men, and brave lads, and our place is a place of kings and priests. Those who are weak against evil, those who are not VALIENT in the work of godliness will not enter.

So where is your rod? Where is your sword? Where are the signs that show me you are a true warrior in the name of Christ? Real Christians are intelligent folks, they know what is

Is this what you think it means to be a Christian?

My words are my sword. My understanding is my shield.

Sun Tzu's the Art of War states: To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

With my words, I teach my understanding. If a person sees wisdom in my words then they may seek to live their life following the will of God. They will then teach their children. Their children will teach their children. If a person sees wisdom in the words of one of those children, the process begins again.

You say it is a fantasy that all the world would love God. I say to you, over half the world already believes in the God of Abraham (Christians, Jews, and Muslims).



[Edited on 21-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]

Hi again Raphael_UO

There are many good points to discuss. I think we are of similar religions, and I think we share the same general will towards mankind.

I am searching your words for something that is hard to describe. It is called the "active principal". It is the force of action, the use of will, the doing of SOMETHING. Your mood and religion seems to be passive, like the female principal.

This is perhaps the root of our difference. Jesus was not a passive being. It is a popular notion to feminize Jesus. How gentle He was and how kind! These do not mean that he was unable to grind the adversary into powder.

When I was a small boy, and probably when you were too, if things were not right, we spoke up about it, we fixed it, we moved whatever we needed to move. When a lie was told, we spoke up about it, because we KNEW that truth was better, and LIE was wrong, and we hated lie and loved the truth. That was the Spirit of God in us. That is called ZEAL.

ZEAL is what I am looking for in my fellow men. ZEAL to speak like a sharp sword, to call out the wicked one openly, and to smite his face with righteousness.

ZEAL is not blowing up bombs or shooting others. ZEAL is the strength of the male who is filled with the purpose and spirit of God. I am looking for strength in your words, and I am not finding any. I do not follow or venerate the feminine way.

Loving all and sitting back is passive. Loving all in the active sense is taking authority to establish and uphold righteousness. Remember, Jesus asked for swords to be brought. I also, ask for for this. But let them be in the form of words for now. What fear have you of words? The time is not yet when we are threatened with our lives, why then do you hesitate to take the war to the enemy with yourt words and ideas?

Do you understand what I mean by the active principal? Do something with your words. Say somethiing that strikes true. Stop wandering around the flowers and take up your task, Christian.

If you only fight with words and thoughts, then that is fine. As long as you are true in them, and do not waver, you will win victories with them. The time for conflict is not yet upon us. Yet because of the constant evil that has been done in the world, a very dark time will soon come to us. Prepare your souls for it by fighting in this manner. Otherwise you will be swept away like grass.

If you really believe Christ, and follow his way, then you are fighting all the time. If you are not, then you have been lax, and I will likely find you among the enemy.

It's not easy to serve Christ when you are a modern American. It really isn't. Loving Christ is easy, but keeping His Law is hard. And His command, if you recall, was the for the sword, and it was put back into its sheath. It is in that spirit that I speak.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
Hi again Raphael_UO

There are many good points to discuss. I think we are of similar religions, and I think we share the same general will towards mankind.

I am searching your words for something that is hard to describe. It is called the "active principal". It is the force of action, the use of will, the doing of SOMETHING. Your mood and religion seems to be passive, like the female principal.

First, I would like to say I don't believe in "religion", I believe in God. I do not have a religion. I have God. I call myself a Christian because I follow the teachings of Jesus. If you would like to label this a "religion", then I guess this would be a religion to you. But these things I teach, I teach to anyone willing to listen, be they Baptist, Methodist, non-demoninational, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim.

My actions are passive as Jesus taught, but that is not to say I can not and do not take action.

My mood seems passive because I am in "teaching mode".

People generally do not respond well when lessons are delivered in a passionate manner. They tend to think one is "shoving it down their throat" when that occurs. My mood reflects my desire to teach.

Perhaps you noticed I stopped quoting scripture when you took some offense to that? That is because I believe there is something in my understanding for you to learn, and your learning is important to me.

This is perhaps the root of our difference. Jesus was not a passive being. It is a popular notion to feminize Jesus. How gentle He was and how kind! These do not mean that he was unable to grind the adversary into powder.

Humility is passive. Jesus was passive. He is able to grind the adversary into powder. But did not.

Just as love is passionate, so was He. The bible (Matthew 21:12-17) teaches just how passionate he can be. He saw a wrong and acted to correct it. But even as he did so, he remained humble. He stated what he recognized. He did not judge. And if you look closely at what this passage says, you will notice that he also did not "damage the merchandise". Common sense tells you that if he would have injured someone or broken the law in anyway he would have been arrested. But he wasn't, and he did not have to run. He stayed right there and healed the blind and the lame.

This fire that burns within me is also passionate. But passion is not always the best teaching method, so I appear more passive.

When I was a small boy, and probably when you were too, if things were not right, we spoke up about it, we fixed it, we moved whatever we needed to move. When a lie was told, we spoke up about it, because we KNEW that truth was better, and LIE was wrong, and we hated lie and loved the truth. That was the Spirit of God in us. That is called ZEAL.

ZEAL is what I am looking for in my fellow men. ZEAL to speak like a sharp sword, to call out the wicked one openly, and to smite his face with righteousness.

ZEAL is not blowing up bombs or shooting others. ZEAL is the strength of the male who is filled with the purpose and spirit of God. I am looking for strength in your words, and I am not finding any. I do not follow or venerate the feminine way.

While my manner seems passive, you might discover the truth of the existance of my passion and zeal in the fact that I am still here-- I am still trying to teach you.

Loving all and sitting back is passive. Loving all in the active sense is taking authority to establish and uphold righteousness. Remember, Jesus asked for swords to be brought. I also, ask for for this. But let them be in the form of words for now. What fear have you of words? The time is not yet when we are threatened with our lives, why then do you hesitate to take the war to the enemy with yourt words and ideas?

Do you understand what I mean by the active principal? Do something with your words. Say somethiing that strikes true. Stop wandering around the flowers and take up your task, Christian.

/humble teaching mode off

Do you think I sit idly by and watch evil run amok? Why would I need to go out and sweep the streets of filth when there is filth right here in my home? I look around and I see things with which I do not agree, and the ones that cut me the deepest are those things believed by those who call themselves Christians.

Driving down the road, I saw a bumper sticker that said "In case of rapture, this car will be unmanned." After I found out what the heck "rapture" was, fire burned HOT inside me. Such pride to say "I am worthy of heaven!" Pride is not the the way to heaven. One must realize this simple thing.

Think back to the "first sin"-- adam and eve eating an apple. Do you think this was just a matter of disobeying God because he said don't eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge? NO! This is a matter of pride. The fruit contained all the knowledge of God. After Eve was tempted by the adversary, she believed "I can know all that God knows!". PRIDE!

What need do I have to go out and search for the enemy, when the enemy is within?

Let me ask you this question I have heard time and time again from those who call themselves Chiristians: If you were to die this very moment, would you go to heaven??

If your answer is yes, there is pride in your heart.

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


Read it. Learn from it. Ask yourself "Why did their sin remain?" Seek understanding!

The first time I heard that question, I was perplexed. Why would someone tempt in such a manner? I answered from my heart. "I do not know."
Of course, this was a lead in to "Do you accept Christ as your savior?"
Of course I did! Did I not tell her I was a Christian?! Then she says "Then you will go to Heaven." PRIDE! I "went off on her" in my passion. I demanded to know when SHE became God. What right did she have to judge any man. I told her those were the promises made. But words such as these are not to be taken lightly. Bible verses flowed off my tongue. one after another. Some I did not even know I knew. Correcting her ignorance.

But what did I accomplish? I made her cry.
What did she learn? She learned she was not "cut out for this".

That made me cry.

/humble teaching mode on


While pride was an important message to teach, she did not deserve what she received. What good is understanding if your passion shakes the faith of others so hard that it crumbles? She was trying to teach an important message, which is more than I tried to do at that time. I do not know if she ever learned of pride. I have never seen her again.

I was young and unable to restrain my passion. My passion is no longer a forest fire raging out of control. It is a furnace warming those around me.

.


[Edited on 22-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]

Rapael_UO

You have painted a different picture of Christ than I have come to understand. You have Feminized Him. You have Feminized Christ and put the rest of mankind's heads down because you have assumed that none of us have made any progression, you have rendered us into poverty and depression.

It isn't pride to be certain and confident in your path to perfection. That is what gives you joy. I will assume that you are fairly joyous in your own salvation and knowledge, but you choose to hide it.

(please answer in your next post) You never commented on the command Jesus gave about selling your coat to buy a sword. What do you say to that? Would you obey such a command?

He gave the command to arm yourself and to follow him. Still want to tell me that Jesus was passive?

Since you are in teaching mode, teach me about this command he gave. Tell me why his desciple cut off the ear of one of the servants of the high priest. Tell me why Jesus caused his children to fight.

(please answer) Have you read any other books besides the Bible? You seem to have been explosed to only the most modern translations of the Bible, and your entire awareness seems to have been grown from that single source.

(please answer) What is masculinity? What is manliness? What aspect of Jesus was King Ruler, Emperor, God of Men? What are those attributes like? What is the nature of the seated King, the hard iron rod? Aren't those male aspects in your Jesus? Or do you have another kind of fellow in mind? In the Bible, it states that in the Last days, those who remain faithful and true will be given a hard iron rod, and will rule the nations and judge mankind.

Jesus stated that his desciples would be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That is not a passive promise make. That is a rather large one. Ever hear a passive man speak like that? Ever hear of a woman dying for the truth?

Jesus spoke quite rudely to the pharasees, saying plainly what they were. He didn't mince his words. Men loved Him because he Spoke with Authority, and it was amazing to him. Just like today, where no one at all dares to speak openly about the things are important. Except a few of us.
And none of us will get away unscathed for it.

A little stiffness in your manhood is good for you, son of Adam. I do not know another kind of man that is worthy to bear a crown of glory on High, than the kind of man who has achieved victory over his enemies. Be it with the word, or the deed, or the power of God, only the victorious will enter into His place.

Pride is indeeed wicked. Pride in the things of the world are wicked indeed. You seem to be afraid to establish anything solid. How do you reconsile this? You say you do not have religion, but you are dragging around the ball and chain of modern religion. Your head is dragging against the ground for your lowliness. Wash it off. Make yourself worthy of authority and Kingdom. It won't come to you unless you show yourself worthy of it.

What were men like Zoroaster and Buddha? What kind of man was John the Baptist? Where did the authority of these men come from? Are you familiar with them? If Jesus is the only judge, and the only man who you seem to think has any authority or power, then why did he say that about the twelve thrones for his desciples? What about the promise for the saints in the book of revs? You will reign on high. Why have you sold yourself short of the kingdom?

You seem to not understand the equality to Jesus that Jesus himself offered. You seem to think the path to heaven is by submission. Perhaps at first submission is required, but after that I would expect you to grow strong and wise and give good service to God.

First of all, heaven isn't a place. You don't get there by travelling. It is a level of awareness and union that takes place in the mind, the spirit. So in order for you to receive it, you need to pursue it like a man hunting. Or a child playing. Either way, you will find it. But you have to GO GET IT. IT WON"T COME TO YOU by wiping the ground with your face.

But sometimes humility is necessary, sometimes strength is necessary too, sometimes also a sword is called for. When your Lord calls for a sword, will you run away? Don't render yourself so powerless and weak. It is not suitable for men to become like women.

I will give you an example. Little children are kept in the spirit and protection of God usually, right? As you know, the nature of small boys is fairly constant and universal because it is the same Father Spirit in them all. If it were useful for boys to be womanish and weak, submissive and passive. Yet, we do not see that. We see the active, iron principal of man. That is what I worship. There is a place for the passive, and the woman, even as there is a place for the moon in the sky. But it is the Sun that rules. Are you familiar with the sun?

The keys are: I know! I see! I declare!

Raise up your head, humble one.

I worship Christ in Glory, and stand with His warrior children. Didn't you know that some of us would be like this? But perhaps that is just the mansion I enter, and the spirit in which I come. Maybe yours is different. There is room for us both.

Yet He still called for the swords to be brought. Here is mine.

Ark