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Do the laws of Democracy predict a Civil War in the USA?

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posted on Jul, 18 2004 @ 06:22 PM
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I was reading over some Government political websites when I found these old quotes.. and they really made me wonder..


About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinburgh) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

That really made me wonder.. I mean, we all vote for the guy that's gonna give us the most back. Twist it as many ways as you can, but it's all about who's going to take the most and who's going to give the most..

It went on to say:

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From Bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage."


Now I'll be the first to admit (shamefully) I didnt know what some of those words meant


But it really makes alot of sense once you break it down..

Breakdown:

-When we came to the America's to escape the king's rule, we went from Bondage to Spiritual faith...
-Then when we stepped up to their troops, we went from faith to courage..
-We faught, we won.. liberty.. the declaration of indepenance is made..
-When we became comfortable with our government, we became Abundant..
-When we became self-satisfied with our govt, we were complacent..
-Then we started to not care what the government was doing behind our backs... apathy..
-And then, unfortunatly we (aside from the rich) began to DEPEND on the government..
-Now the government can do whatever it damn well pleases to us.. and we cant do a thing about it.. BONDAGE

I was a little torn between the Bondage and Dependant at first.. but then I really started to think about it.. we have little say who becomes president, we have little say in what laws are passed, and we have little say in our constitutional rights.

So what's this all mean? Is the USA on the brink of another civil war? Will the fear of the US's military prevent this? Is this why the US pours so much of our money into the military? To keep us afraid?

Discuss!


(Mods: if this is in the wrong topic, please move it, sorry)




posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 03:55 AM
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i didnt know wat those words meant either....thats why i keep a dictionary next to my computer
your post has made everything crystal clear as to what direction we are headed. when u are complacent then people can do whatever they want and no eyebrows will be raised. our government took their oppurtunity to sheild us from their diabolical schemes and now we are stuck. i guess now is the point where u must ask yourself if you are with them or against them? is a revolution even possible? i supose once all of our rights have been stripped we will really have no choice. until then im gonna go play some video games....



posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 04:08 AM
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This was not to be a "Democracy", but a republic. Democracy is mob rule and chaos, direction changing on whims of the majority rather than the tyrant. But Republics are better small, instead of large and rambling as this nation is.

As far as your question goes, is this nation on the verge of civil war, I'd have to say no. The reason should be perfectly clear. The days of Patrick Henry and George Washington are long gone, the majority of the men of this nation have been neutered, softened and disarmed, and almost all of them can tell you much more about sports statistics than the foundation of this nation and what it really means. A couple days ago someone here even told me that they believed the Founding Fathers went to war for the freedom of vulgarity (the same ones that sacrificed all passed the first obscenity laws), if that gives you any idea of the ignorance extent.

No, I seriously doubt this nation will go to war against its own government is if the governmenttries to do something foolish, like outlaw cable TV, or something else equally dear to the American heart.



posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 05:38 AM
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This actually is a scary prophecy. I hope Tyler is wrong, but I fear he is right.

Speaking of scary prophecies for fellow intelligent Americans, has anyone ever read this:

The Forty-Five Goals

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.


This was written by Cleon Skousen in the Naked Communist which I believe was published in the late 1950's or early 1960's. Whether this was actually based on communist intercepts, I can't prove. Nevertheless, somebody seems to have gotten their hands on it and has made most of it a reality. I'm inclined to believe its real, or at the very least, largely real. Any thoughts?



posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 06:25 AM
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i dont think its the laws of democracy its the laws of politics, and democracy is nothing more than a political system, far from being flawless, so its just a matter of time. It just might happen sooner than anyone expects. And its not democracy thats running the USA, its the money and few people that actually have some.

Democracy might even work if the governments werent corupted to a pulp, but these are just humans with their own agendas running the show, they dont care about people, and they never had.



posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 07:27 AM
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Eastern Diamond back WTF is up with your goals if all of them were accomplished it would be light the us collapsed and every other country on earth got stronger and the would have a field day with us there are so many things wrong with your goals I would need time to explain them but I don't have it right now bottom line they will never get accomplished

:



posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Eastern Diamond back WTF is up with your goals if all of them were accomplished it would be light the us collapsed and every other country on earth got stronger...


I guess you must have not read clearly. They're not my goals. They're supposed to be the Communist goals for the United States in the early 60's. Cleon Skousen, once the director of communications for the FBI, documented the supposed 45 goals of the Communists and they were placed on the Congressional Record in 1963.

Personally, I don't think they're made up or forged. I think they're real. And even if they were made up, the Communists have taken the list and accomplished those goals anyway. What do you think? What does everybody think?



posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 10:39 AM
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Personally, I don't think they're made up or forged. I think they're real. And even if they were made up, the Communists have taken the list and accomplished those goals anyway. What do you think? What does everybody think?


IMO, these aren't even goals anymore. They are things that are already done. Just about every one of those items have been accomplished which is real scary! I haven't heard that the FBI has been dismantled so there is something left to be done.



posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 11:36 AM
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IMO, these aren't even goals anymore. They are things that are already done. Just about every one of those items have been accomplished which is real scary! I haven't heard that the FBI has been dismantled so there is something left to be done.


I think 42 or 43 out of 45 have been accomplished. Some are irrelevant today, like the Germany issue.

[edit on 19-7-2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]



posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 12:18 PM
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Most from the rural west and south know that a civil war is possible. Many (more than easterners would believe) are waiting for one to start. The problem for those who want this is that they are all sitting on their butts watching t.v., waiting for a hero on a white horse to show up and lead the way. Many would be that man if not for laws that forbid the speach of treason in our land. Kinda makes it hard to raise an army. While I dont see an outright civil war in our near future, a more likely possibility is that there will be a large disaster, such as an extended power outage, looting, riots, earthquaks, could be anything really, just has to be big. Both sides could take advantage of this. The armed constituionalist using the havoc as a chance to seize and cordon off local areas and swell their ranks with the helpless left in the aftermath. The government, of course would respond in kind, however the disaster, if large enough, would give the self-styled revoulutionaries the time needed to begin the tasks of rebellion. While this would only end in much bloodshed, and the gov. would never yeild control of any territory, such a "war" could be carried on over an extended period of time. A low tech military force can hold its own against larger powers and infact have many distinct advantages. For those who think that no war could be waged by farmers with hunting riffles against the U.S., all you need to do is turn on your t.v. and watch the war in Iraq. I just returned from there and I will tell you, tech. is little good against bombs hidden in week-dead horses on the side of the road.

Here is what you must ask yourself. What would be better? agovernment that has turned a deaf ear to those who cry for the restoration of the republic, or the unknown of the revolutionaries. I think things would have to get really bad before the average person would give armed rebels support, and no rebell faction can fight long term without local support.

To stay alive, a republic must get CPR every now and then, remind it what it is, what it was meant to be. What I think is funny is that those who would be most likely to help keep the rich and powerfull in charge would be the welfare queens. Ironic.

For those using their new found patriot act powers, this is not an endorcment for treachery or rebellion, just thoughts about the possible political mindset of some Americans. Please dont send ninja-suited agents to kick in my door.



posted on Jul, 19 2004 @ 01:19 PM
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YEP! You can bet on it.



posted on Jul, 26 2004 @ 03:53 AM
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Ok, then, what do you think will start a Civil War in this country, and what common moral strength is still shared that will propel a righteously indignant citizenry to fertilize Liberty with the blood of both the tyrants as well as the patriots?



posted on Jul, 26 2004 @ 04:01 AM
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I don't think we will have a civil war in this country. My guess would be a revolution. And I don't think it is that far away.



posted on Jul, 26 2004 @ 05:42 AM
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None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.
--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe



posted on Jul, 26 2004 @ 10:10 AM
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I am starting to think that the gov't created the patriot act because they knew their upcoming decisions would piss off the American people, so they needed some kind of document to scare people into subject to the government out of fear... Not only have we been subjected to the law in the past and present, but from the present to the future we will be subjected to the government. The Patriot act almost paralises people from bucking the government in fear of treason, years of jail time, which btw 1/3 of American's are in prison last year it was 130,000 this year it's climed to 3.4 million americans. source: drudgereportlink.

Since that quote hold much water, bondage is next since people have been apathetic... It won't be for another 30-40 years before people retaliate, but also remember the gov't has many advanced weapons, us people are are cavemen like companred to gov't weapons.. guns are a thing of the past, it worked back 200 yrs ago, but now citizens would need some kind of lazer to blast down from space to oust gov't agencies and such...
It would never happen, we're #ed... Andyes, gov't made sure this would happen this way.

Law abiding citizens aren't enough anymore law abiding citizens with consitutional rights are a threat so to take away those rights leaves us with law abiding and government abiding citizens with no choice..
How wonderful..



posted on Jul, 26 2004 @ 11:07 AM
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The more violation of our civil rights by this administration and with the implementations of the patriot act the unhappy the population may be, so far we have seen some of our liberties been put to the test and been challenge.

In the name of national emergency this administration has been successful in getting federal Judges to challenge our civil rights.

Right now under the patriot act the government greatly expanded the power of government to: conduct secret searches of private homes.

Permitted the attorney general to detain aliens as security threats whenever he wanted.

S stipulated new rules enabling government to demand records of any person's book purchases or borrowings from bookstores and libraries, and increased the government's surveillance authority in many other ways.

A recent report by an internal Justice Department inspector alleged "dozens" of violations of civil rights in the enforcement of the act. [4

The problem is that this new laws are supposed to protect the US and regular citizen but the powers is giving to our elected officials has starting to deviate to other areas and affecting the regular law abiding citizen.

John Ashcroft's Justice Department has been using its new powers under the Patriot Act, which were defended as emergency provisions against terrorists, to investigate and prosecute a wide variety of more ordinary crimes, including theft and swindling.

As the American citizen liberties start to become narrower the population will start questioning the Government if the government start abusing the liberties of the citizen this may bring discontent to the citizens and the population and if our democratic rights to change the government is challenge to I see the possibility of an uprising within the population of US.



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