Abortion, Genocide, what’s THE difference?!?!?!?!?.... do you condone murder???

Originally posted by MindSpin


I think any human who murders another human should be punished. I'm not biased against women killing their own children...I'm against all murderers.

I always wanted to know the difference between murdering and killing. Now I know that murder is just premeditated. However either way life is still being taken. I wasn't sure if you stated in an earlier post that murder can only be justifiable if it saves the life of the mother right?

Originally posted by MindSpin
I am speaking for myself, I am also speaking about the human species and the protection of all human life.

Look...you too just admitted that it is "human" and that it is "life"...so what justification do you have for any human ending the life of another human???

We all have the right to make choices. Do we all make the right choices? No, maybe not. People need the right to choose. Making choices whether it results aborting life or something else of that nature. Just like you choose to say it's wrong and I choose to say it's right, but we both have exceptions.

Originally posted by MindSpin

What about what comes out of the penis??? Is it the responsibility of the penis owner??? Because part of that baby came out of the penis.

Do you agree?

I concur. I don't mind the male having the right to choose on whether his baby makes it into the world or not. I think it's honorable really especially if he has every intention of taking care and raising it, but still who's to say the woman won't run off and abort the child regardless of his feelings. Times have changed and women have rights to do what they want.

reply to post by SevenBeans

As a woman you don't understand what it's like knowing that another person can abuse or kill your unborn offspring for absolutely any stupid reason that enters their head.

At least rape is illegal. I'd rather be raped than have my unborn baby thrown in the trash.

Brilliant post...she should read this post a couple hundred times.

It's amazing that people think men shouldn't have an opinion or say about this topic.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Maslo

 

Exactly. Now where to draw the line at complexity? This is known as eugenics. That because your some how superior you're more important. This is only true when your life is in danger as a result of another. I don't see abortion as justifiable for nay reason, but legally it is defendable when the mother is at risk or rape is involved. That is all.

It's actually legally "defendable" where the law allows it. Because you say it is or is not "defendable" does not make it so. That is all.

reply to post by Sinnthia

What????????????????????????????????

As a woman, there is no chance that someone else could cause something to happen to me that might harm my unborn child that will not be found illegal?

WHAT?????????????????????????????????????

So women never have to worry about their baby being "accidentally" aborted by a perfectly legal medical mistake or "accidental harm" cause by say a boyfriend not thrilled with the baby? What planet are you on??????????????

Wow...you are insane or just completely detached from reality.


Amazing...amazingly stupid.

reply to post by MindSpin


Again, why would you stay with a woman if you didn’t know her views on abortion 100%? Why would you have sex with a woman who might abort your child, if you don’t agree with abortion?

Shouldn’t that be something that is discussed before having sex? It’s not like it is a small issue.

Originally posted by worlds_away
reply to post by SevenBeans

 

Why in the world would any man have sex with a woman without first knowing her views on abortion? If you don’t know what your partner’s answer to the abortion question might be, then why would you have sex? Especially if abortion is something you feel so strongly about.

Honestly, I think those are valid questions.

Like I told you before...you can talk all you want...and then the woman can change her mind after she gets pregnant and still LEGALLY go kill the mans child without him having a say in the matter.


Do you disagree that is possible???

Originally posted by LoverBoy
reply to post by MindSpin

 

I couldn't help but seeing the pattern here. Anyone who disputes your theories, has something negative said to them. Maybe this is why the govt doesn't care to listen to your theories.

I return negative with negative.


I bet you don't notice anyone saying anything negative towards me...right???

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by WhiteHat

 

A child of 5 is just as dependent as the fetus. therefore the parasitic nature before the age of 13 is irrelevant. What is relevant is if liberty was violated in its formation or if a life is threatened by its continuation.

edit on 25-2-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

You can separate a child of 5 from the mother and the child will continue to live without the mother. You cannot separate a fetus below a certain age from the mother. Legally dependent and biologically dependent are two different things.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
What????????????????????????????????

As a woman, there is no chance that someone else could cause something to happen to me that might harm my unborn child that will not be found illegal?

No one else can willfully abuse or intentionally kill your unborn child without breaking the law. Try imagining what it would be like if someone could, for absolutely any reason, no matter how stupid.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
So women never have to worry about their baby being "accidentally" aborted by a perfectly legal medical mistake

Accidents are much different than someone wilfully abusing or intentionally killing your unborn child and such a mistake would almost certainly be considered gross negligence and you would have legal recourse.

reply to post by MindSpin


It’s entirely possible, and legal, you said so yourself.

So you want the law changed?

What is your alternative to the law as it stands now?

reply to post by Constance888

I always wanted to know the difference between murdering and killing. Now I know that murder is just premeditated. However either way life is still being taken. I wasn't sure if you stated in an earlier post that murder can only be justifiable if it saves the life of the mother right?

And abortion is definately premeditated...so it is not just killing...it is murder.

In the case where the mother will die if an abortion is not performed, I don't have issues with that. That is a human protecting their own life, I'm sure it is a hard choice, but most the time in those cases if the pregnancy isn't aborted, both the baby and the mother would die. I agree that this case is a personal medical decision to be made.

We all have the right to make choices. Do we all make the right choices? No, maybe not. People need the right to choose. Making choices whether it results aborting life or something else of that nature. Just like you choose to say it's wrong and I choose to say it's right, but we both have exceptions.

This is why we have laws. Some people CHOOSE to murder others. Some people CHOOSE to rape others.

Bad choices shouldn't go unpunished.

I concur. I don't mind the male having the right to choose on whether his baby makes it into the world or not. I think it's honorable really especially if he has every intention of taking care and raising it, but still who's to say the woman won't run off and abort the child regardless of his feelings. Times have changed and women have rights to do what they want.

Well that's the thing isn't it...it's a matter of EQUALITY. Men do not have the same choice as women have in the decision in their own offspring.

I am all for equality...I think women should have all the same rights that men have. However, I don't think they should have MORE rights than men do...just as men shouldn't have more rights than women do.

It's a case of inequality...which is why in the very least the law needs to be changed to get the paternal consent before any abortion is performed. However I would prefer to see abortion outlawed outright, because I don't care if just the women decides to murder her baby or both the mother and father agree to murder their child....it is still the murder of a human life...and should be against the law.

reply to post by MindSpin


More along the line of when you hear something negative toward your theory, you respond with an insult to the person. Some other people have done it here as well, since your the type who likes to say WHAT ABOUT THEM.....at the same time, you do it in every reply that contradicts your "theory"

Originally posted by MindSpin

Until you can provide some sound and logical argument as to why the biological definition of life isn't the best definition to use for humans, just as it is used for all other species...then please refrain from yelling and getting all emotional. It doesn't make you look very good.

From Wikipedia:

Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (biology) from those that do not.

This has already been defined by law in almost every developed country. Can the fetus survive on it's own without the mother? It's alive ONLY because the mother keeps it that way. The mother is the deciding factor. Your nitpicking of when life begins isn't decided by you. If you subscribe to a higher power to change that, more power to you, but the law gets to decide when it's legal for a woman can terminate her pregnancy through abortion.

Originally posted by worlds_away
reply to post by MindSpin

 

It’s entirely possible, and legal, you said so yourself.

So you want the law changed?

What is your alternative to the law as it stands now?

It is entirely legal and possible...but you were suggesting that if men just talked to women about this before having sex...then there would be no issues. But as you admit yourself, that is not true. I could have a women promise me that she would never have an abortion, and then turn around and kill my child. You are being dishonest pretendng a simple conversation solves these issues.


I don't think I've made it a secret that abortion should be illegal.

The arguments of, "making it illegal won't stop it" are irrelevant to me...what is relevant is that we as a society decide that no humans should be murdered, no matter how young they are.

Murder is illegal...it hasn't stopped murder...does that mean we should just make murder legal??? This is why the above argument is irrelevant and is illogical.


At the very least...as a baby step towards outright making abortion illegal...every abortion should need the fathers consent. And no, you can't prove who the father is...but if there is more than one choice in the matter...then they would all need to give consent. If it was found out at a later date that they women just used a male as a friend to fake he was the father, both the man and the women in question should be punished. For this temporary measure, rape and incest would be excused as well as when the mothers life is in danger.


Do you have an issue with those proposals???

Originally posted by LoverBoy
reply to post by MindSpin

 

More along the line of when you hear something negative toward your theory, you respond with an insult to the person. Some other people have done it here as well, since your the type who likes to say WHAT ABOUT THEM.....at the same time, you do it in every reply that contradicts your "theory"

If I do this so often...and you are openly accusing me of doing so...please go find specific instances and quote them. Please make sure to quote the comment I am responding to as well so we can keep everything in context.


I will note, that I have asked others to do this who have accused me of other things in this thread....none have actually gone back to find quotes to prove their accusation.

Will you?

Originally posted by MindSpin

I set my bar with an argument that no one is able to refute...I have even gotten a few people to admit to the fact that Human Life begins at conception.

Refusing to acknowledge refutations is hardly the same as not being refuted but far be it for me to get between you and your back patting on the subject of abortion. I see how happy it makes you.

You can refute it if you like...apparently the bar is set so low...it should be no problem at all for you

That is a really pointless argument to make. I just ate some broccoli. If I agree with you that life begins at conception and life is precious then you should be quite upset about this broccoli. I am guessing you are not as concerned with life as you are a specific type of life. So the actual argument is when life becomes something you value. Do you value the life of a gnat as much as the life of a fetus simply because you can define it as life?

Maybe you need some therapy...because you shouldn't be afraid to be raped EVERY MOMENT OF YOUR LIFE.

Cool. Try to take my argument and twist it into some false personal assessment. How is that helping you so far? I am not afraid of being raped every moment of my life. In fact, I hardly fear it personally. Unfortunately, that does not make it a possibility every moment. The only thing a women needs in order to be a potential rape victim is an opening. That is reality, is it not? Did you post that list of women immune to rape and I missed it?

You are seriously trying to twist my words in order to avoid the actual argument and paint me as a paranoid nut. This is ATS. You are going to have to do way better than that. I never mentioned lizard people or anything.

You may have some psychological issues you need to work out...it's not healthy to live in constant fear.

So that sentence seemed really worth writing in case I missed you mischaracterization the first time? Do it again.

I just asked my wife...she is a female...she laughed at you...sorry.

Glad to see you both find this topic so funny.

This may be very real for you...but you need to work that out for yourself...most women don't live in constant fear of getting raped. Like I said, you may want to get some therapy. This is not an insult, it is sincere advice out of concern for your mental state.

How did it feel the third time?

Let me try to be as simplistic as I can for you.
I am not a paranoid nut, constantly worrying about being raped

BUT

The fact is, there is nothing that makes any female 100% immune to rape and impregnation. Men are 100% immune to that. That is a fact. I hope your wife finds facts as funny as the topics of rape and abortion.

Immune...nah. But not living in constant fear. My wife knows how to handle herself, she has taken self defense and martial arts...she doesn't live in constant fear but understands that there may be a time where she may need to defend herself.

Really beating that dead horse into the ground ain't ya? Makin' horse burgers or what? We got it. You cannot make a valid argument so you are using hyperbole to conflait facts with paranoia in order to make me look crazy. I guess that is easier than actually refuting my points. I guess I am unrefuted as well then?

Do you think people get raped all the time...just grocery shopping or something???

I know for a fact that women have been raped while grocery shopping thus proving it is indeed a possibility. Can you show me one man that has been raped and impregnated against his will ever? Anywhere? Go back through all history. Use the entire planet. Take your time on that.

Or keep going on about what a paranoid nut I am because I know women are always viable candidates for impregnation verses men NEVER being in that position. If you do not understand the reality of those extremes and can only use it to try and paint me as having professed some great fear I never actually have, then you have already lost any argument you may have been so proud of yourself for claiming was unrefuted. You cannot even make the argument here.

Like I said...seek help.

I am starting to think you are obsessed with this. I got it the last 4 times. Done yet?

You are a very confusing individual.

I got that. I keep writing these plain English sentencens and they are throwing you off all over the place. Ask your wife for help. Two minds are better than one.

Let the male babies that died during an abortion share their opinion????

Yes.

Hmmmm

Exactly my point.

I apologize. I am really used to having these kinds of discussions with people that can follow a thought and understand irony. Yes, let the fetuses that are going to be aborted worry about it because your made up empty stat does not give you any more say in the matter so if your concern is with them, let them worry about them. The fact that they are unborn fetuses is not your problem. You want to see them as individual lives, worthy of a say in their life. Let them say it then. If some collection of cells fails to speak up, so be it. Not your call, even by your own standards.

I noticed you didn't answer the question.

Because it was not the least bit relevant. If you want to argue about fair pay for fair work, that is for an entirely different discussion and one I would be more than happy to engage you in but it hardly applies here. If I put in the same quality work as a counterpart, I have earned equal pay. My EARNING equal pay does not then relate to men being able to be impregnated against their will. I am sorry you cannot understand the huge failure that arguement would be.

Are you for equlity or not???

Equality in what? If you want a uterus, go get one. If you find that hard to do, so sorry. If I can do your job as good as you do it, I see no reason to pay me less.

I will continue to express my opinion...you can't silence me...sorry.

I am sorry that you think I care enough to want to put forth the effort it would take to silence some stranger on an internet forum. Are you suggesting I not express my opinion in response?

I'm sorry...I didn't realize I needed a certain resume and post history to be passionate about a topic.

If you want credibility in the argument that you are concerned about the sanctity of life, it just really helps to not have a post history contradicting that very sentiment. Just sayin'. I guess you are telling me that people that die outside abortions are not as valuable so those lives do not matter as much then?

I have already stated...I am against unjust wars and I am against the death penalty. Sorry I haven't posted to your satisfaction on those topics...but you know what...I don't care. If that is the best argument you have against me...that is pretty weak.

Actually it is just one of many valid arguments that I and others have pointed out to you. You just ignore, blow off, or demonize anything you find hard to deal with on an intellectual level. I am sorry I notice these things. You can say you are for the death penalty once but then to spend 40 pages only going on about abortion would go a long way to demonstrate exactly how you really prioritze your concern for "all" life.

Your entire argument is based on "life" how it is defined and when it begins. Once people are born, they are still alive and people concerned with ALL LIFE should show at least a relative level of conern for all life. To not do so is a clear demonstration of the deception being employed to disguise a very specific agenda that unfortunately belies the very reasoning you are using here to make your "point."

Clearly huh???

Crystal.

My main focus is on one thing...protecting human life.

No it is not. Your main focus is only on protecting unborn life. Saying things are X do not make them X when we can all just look at your posts as see nothing but Y.

And you know what...I have a "dog in this fight" as well...my fellow humans are being slaughtered at an alarming rate...and mostly because they are an inconvienence to the poor excuses of humans that they got stuck with as their "mother".

But you do not have as big a dog in the fight for the genocides happening across the globe in the less oil rich countries? How about the alarming number of innocent people being freed from death row compared to the number still awaiting appeals? How about our soldies and any civillians caught in any of the battles going on? Do you not see people ACTUALLY DYING every day while you sit here fretting with tears over lives that have not even begun yet?

Real people die and you use your concern for all life to concentrate on the unborn babies that may not even exist yet. And I am confusing.

No...abortion is not the number one cause of death....neither is death by violent rape...but I don't think we should ignore either just because they don't take the number one spot.

I never said ignore. You are the one claiming that life begins at conception and should be protected because ALL LIFE matters. So spend about 40 pages worrying about some other causes of death for a bit and show us that you mean what you say instead of just saying what you say and continuing to prove it pretty much a lie.

My post history will reflect my interests, which will not be dictated by you...sorry.

Twice now you say I am trying to dictate something. I fail to see me giving out any orders or commands. I have not even suggested you not be pro-life. You however do seem to be suggesting that people stop having choice. Odd form of projection seeping through? Too much horse meat?

There go the pro-choicers trying to inject religion into the debate again.

Actually it was the one nice thing I said as a fair gesture of luck in whatever belief drives you. Of course you found that insulting.

Do you guys get a playbook on what to do when you are desperately trying to justify the murder of babies???

You guys?

Um...

How...

many...

of...

me...

do you think I am?

At least you are able to admit your assumptions are poorly framed...kudos.

All that matters is that they are correct, however framed. Keep aiming lower though. You seem to be changing hearts and minds with this tactic left and right. How many babies you s'pose ya saved taday?

reply to post by grahag

From Wikipedia:

I should really just stop reading right there...good lord.

Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (biology) from those that do not.

Let's look at the full definition from your source.

Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (biology) from those that do not,[1][2] either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate

So have fetuses functions ceased (death) or are they inanimate???

A fetus fullfils that definition anyway...it depends on the mother as a food source....so do newborns. We as human adults depend on other plants and animals as food sources. A fetus is self-sustaining as long as it has a proper food source and environment...the same as any other "living" thing.

This has already been defined by law in almost every developed country. Can the fetus survive on it's own without the mother?

Can a newborn survive on it's own???

It's alive ONLY because the mother keeps it that way. The mother is the deciding factor. Your nitpicking of when life begins isn't decided by you. If you subscribe to a higher power to change that, more power to you, but the law gets to decide when it's legal for a woman can terminate her pregnancy through abortion.

I am hardly nitpicking...I have a clear definition of when life begins...it is the same definition Biology uses for every living thing.

When do YOU think it begins??? What arbitrary bodily function are you going to pick to make your criteria to determine life???

Originally posted by MindSpin
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

What????????????????????????????????

As a woman, there is no chance that someone else could cause something to happen to me that might harm my unborn child that will not be found illegal?

WHAT?????????????????????????????????????

So women never have to worry about their baby being "accidentally" aborted by a perfectly legal medical mistake or "accidental harm" cause by say a boyfriend not thrilled with the baby? What planet are you on??????????????

Wow...you are insane or just completely detached from reality.


Amazing...amazingly stupid.

Can you explain yourself?

Are you also claiming that women do not ever have to worry about losing their unborn child to perfectly legal actions of someone else?

Please plase tell me that is what you are saying here.

Originally posted by MindSpin
I'm well aware it is legal...doesn't really matter to me.
I married a women that believes abortion is murder, we will teach our kids the same (from the biological stand point of it). That is really the only thing that matters to me.

You don't feel bad that you're teaching your children ignorance though? You KNOW the difference, but you choose to ignore it. And you will teach your children the same ignorance regardless of the reasons. If you don't know the difference, murder, by definition is the unlawful killing of another human being. ALONE, that definition explains that abortion is not murder. Taken with more context, a human being is a member of any of the races of Homo sapiens; person; man, woman, or child. We'll take it a bit further that biologically, a child is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty.

This is generally accepted in civilized society. If you don't accept that, then it's fine, but you're in the minority in this case and your argument will stand on your beliefs instead of your reasons.

I have one last argument for you though. Is it the right of someone to have or to not have children? It's a trap, but you will probably see where I'm going with it if you're as smart as I'm giving you credit for.

By legal definitions, abortion is NOT murder OR genocide.

Originally posted by MindSpin
reply to post by SevenBeans

 

As a woman you don't understand what it's like knowing that another person can abuse or kill your unborn offspring for absolutely any stupid reason that enters their head.

At least rape is illegal. I'd rather be raped than have my unborn baby thrown in the trash.

Brilliant post...she should read this post a couple hundred times.

It's amazing that people think men shouldn't have an opinion or say about this topic.

You must be insane if you honestly believe that no pregnant woman has to worry about losing her unborn child do to the actions of someone else. I am not even sure how one person can say something so insane, let alone two.