Abortion, Genocide, what’s THE difference?!?!?!?!?.... do you condone murder???

Wow thats the what 100th thread about people for or againts abortion lol, people dont get it i guess, abortion is a womens right, she has the right to decide about the future of herself and her body, nobody has the right to choose for her , so thanks for ther obvious, thanks for adding to the ats junk pill eheheh

Originally posted by dukeofjive
Wow thats the what 100th thread about people for or againts abortion lol, people dont get it i guess, abortion is a womens right, she has the right to decide about the future of herself and her body, nobody has the right to choose for her , so thanks for ther obvious, thanks for adding to the ats junk pill eheheh

edit on 24-2-2011 by dukeofjive because: missed a couple of letters

What about the rights of an unborn child? It doesn't have the right to live?

I will start by saying I am pro-life. I believe that if you are grown-up enough to have sex, then you are grown-up enough to live with the consequences. Abortion is not the only choice for a woman/teen who finds themselves pregnant, there are thousands of couples out there who want to adopt, and many if not most want to adopt infants. Unless it is medically unsafe for a woman to carry a child due to medical issues with the mother then Abortion should never be sanctioned. It most definitely should NOT be at the cost of the province/state. Why should my taxes which are high enough go to pay for something that is a woman's choice, not necessary but choice.
I am a high school teacher and I have to say, the amount of children I hear about having sex and other things is scary, but if they are old enough to be having sex then they are old enough to deal with the consequences. Abortion is much too readily accessible. I had my daughter when I was 24 and when I told my now ex, I was pregnant she suggested I have an abortion, needless to say he is my ex for a reason.

If people want to have an abortion, then it should not be able to happen at 24 weeks, my little cousin is now 11 years old, he was born at 24 weeks, he was a healthy baby boy, he is now an amazing young man. Should that be acceptable. When my baby looked like no more then a Lima-bean in my womb, she had a heart beat, What is that saying about our society if its O.K. to kill a child with a heartbeat.
We as a society really has to look at where our priorities have gone and what is important in life. We say that the choice should be the womans, well we also have a choice not to have sex, and most definitely it should not be Country funded.

God Bless

Rape victims don't have a choice.

S&F...good post, OP.

The question arrises, if you are so opposed to abortion, what have you done to rescue the babies?

If you were in Germany in 1944 and down the street from you was a concentration camp. If you were aware that every day hundreds of people were being gassed and burnt in ovens? Would you respond to this murder by writing a note and placing it on a wall in the public square for others to view? Lamenting murder resolves nothing either on a public wall or a web site. Murder requires action.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Dolphins and primates have proven this level of self awareness. Does that make these animals special above the others? Are they "alive" now?

They are all alive from a biological standpoint, we're talking about consciousness so these animals that recognise themselves in a mirror have more in common with us than the animals who don't. However from other tests that have been run they fail in other areas so they're not at our level. Still it does make them special i think, simply because they are showing novel characteristics.

Originally posted by Sinnthia

You know this how?

Because of all the tests previously mentioned. Animals definitely have instinctual responses and we know different animals show forms of emotion, we also know some of those animals have a certain level of self awareness but not at our level, again the tests i mentioned show this.

Having emotion is one thing, being fully self aware gives you the ability to more deeply appreiciate those emotions, to go from simple instinctual response to self reflection. While some animals have shown a level of self awareness they don't have all of the things needed to appreiciate their emotions, this includes intelligence.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Further, I have yet to see anything to show that developing fetuses feel these same emotions and level of awareness. When we start defining life, we have to be very careful what we leave out.

I have not seen evidence of that either, this is my argument. If the fetus feels no emotions then i see no problem with removing it, once it starts developing any measure of self awareness we need to then weigh the mothers safety against the babies rights.

Originally posted by romanmel
S&F...good post, OP.

The question arrises, if you are so opposed to abortion, what have you done to rescue the babies?

If you were in Germany in 1944 and down the street from you was a concentration camp. If you were aware that every day hundreds of people were being gassed and burnt in ovens? Would you respond to this murder by writing a note and placing it on a wall in the public square for others to view? Lamenting murder resolves nothing either on a public wall or a web site. Murder requires action.

What action should the OP take? I'm just wondering what you think.

However you like so many others compare a living breathing, thinking, caring human being to a small collection of cells, this is odd to me. The people being gassed to death, clawing at the walls are very different to a fetus that doesn't have any clue what is going on and to compare the two does a shocking disservice to those poor people who were killed in gas chambers. It cheapens their suffering.

You should be ashamed of that comparison.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by kevinunknown

 

1. Genocide

the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

You are incorrect about genocide. Words mean things.

2. If you are against abortion, don't get one. Other women's medical condition and choices are NONE of your business.

I suspect the OP is male which in my opinion means his opinion is of little value. Since women have to have the abortion or not and they are the ones living with the final decision only they can decide what is best.

The language used by the OP is typical desperate pysychology in order to sway people to his beliefs. A cheap trick to be treated with contempt.

when i was much younger than now, i was 18, me and my girlfriend submitted to an abortion. we couldn't see a way out, then, i was scared (but never told) at having her as the mother of my children. when it was done,i began a path of many years of suffering and reflection, wich turned out in a growth. i realized then that, without knowing it, i was against abortion and this nearly destroyed me.
now i think that life is in all living cells and needs to be respected, i have now a loving wife who will give me a son in a couple of months and, despite being both quite poor, we are at cloud nine for the happiness.
i'm writing this to say just a thing: prohibiting murder hasn't stop people killing each other, so a law against abortion will lead to nothing exept more suffering. there is a moral and human growth, on wich we need to focus, away from religions. and not because they are evil, but because even non religious people should be touched by a sense of responsibility.

reply to post by kevinunknown

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I find it a little odd that you left out and did not respond to the crux of my entire point.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Anyway. I guess it just stands out to me because if this is the argument than any human that has developemental issues that prevent them from reaching that level of awareness then qualify as less alive than some chimps and dolphins.

But thanks for your response anyway.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

2. If you are against abortion, don't get one. Other women's medical condition and choices are NONE of your business.

I disagree. If someone believes abortion is murder, then it is his moral duty to prevent it, even by force. You do not just look the other way when someone is being murdered, that is absurd. There is no choice in this matter. It either is murder, and then should be banned by law (even in cases of rape), or it is not murder, and then should be allowed with no restrictions at all.

I am pro-choice up to about 4th month.

reply to post by Maslo


By force? As in physically make someone not get an abortion? I am not understanding your view as by force. In Iraq when we said by force, someone was going to become a statistic. When my love was raped and received an abortion, some thug who tried stopping her "by force" would be six feet under.

Originally posted by malcr
I suspect the OP is male which in my opinion means his opinion is of little value. Since women have to have the abortion or not and they are the ones living with the final decision only they can decide what is best.

The language used by the OP is typical desperate pysychology in order to sway people to his beliefs. A cheap trick to be treated with contempt.

This is disgusting sexism, you think a man doesn't care when a child is aborted? Obviously it needs to be the womans choice because no one should have that control other than herself but don't say a mans opinion is of little value.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

I find it a little odd that you left out and did not respond to the crux of my entire point.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Anyway. I guess it just stands out to me because if this is the argument than any human that has developemental issues that prevent them from reaching that level of awareness then qualify as less alive than some chimps and dolphins.

But thanks for your response anyway.

edit on 24-2-2011 by Sinnthia because: (no reason given)

I left it out because i thought it's clear what my position on that is. A child will be born before you discover such issues, a living human being, even if brain damaged deserves compassion, this is not the same as a fetus that isn't yet developed.

I've had close friends who have had abortions - contraception failiure amongst other reasons.

Its completely upto the person carrying, its nobody elses choice, bussiness or concern: except that the partner involved should at least be informed and consulted about the situation.

People should be educated about the facts, about practicing safe sex, that abortion shouldn't be considered as a form of casual contraception - its a last resort.

Some people aren't ready to be parents - hell I've seen some that can;t even look after themselves - anyone can be a parent, it takes maturity, lots of love and hard work to become a mother or a father.

Spare people your judgment, for you do not know their story nor live inside their heads.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I left it out because i thought it's clear what my position on that is. A child will be born before you discover such issues, a living human being, even if brain damaged deserves compassion, this is not the same as a fetus that isn't yet developed.

Not exactly. You were making the case that "life" can be defined by these certain characteristics that you first claimed animals did not share, then claimed they did but just not on the same level. I am suggesting that a dolphin is far more self aware and capable of feeling emotions than someone in the final stages of Alzheimer's disease. Pick any hospital in the country and we can find some people on life support, in comas, etc. Are these people more "alive" than a self aware primate that feels emotions?

That was specifically what it was I was trying to learn about your view. Sorry if you felt you made it clear. I did not.

reply to post by kevinunknown


I am a firm believer that a woman has a choice of what happens to her body. If your friend had a child at 24 weeks (which, I'm sure, is a very risky thing for both mother and child) and survived and has a healthy baby with no medical problems, then good for her! But my feeling is that pro-lifers obviously haven't been visiting homeless shelters or orphanages lately. I know where children go when their mother is an addict and decides to give birth and put her baby up for adoption. I am the child of a 16 year old mentally ill mother who decided not to abort. And trust me, I am all for preventing any child from leading a life full of abuse and being thrown into the system. To me, murder is being trapped in a system, with no advocate, no parents, and no love.

Sometimes the alternatives must be considered before the right to choose is removed.

It is up to the women if they terminate.

You can call it what you like but it is not your choice and the state allows it so get on with your life and stop worrying about something you can not controll.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by romanmel
S&F...good post, OP.

The question arrises, if you are so opposed to abortion, what have you done to rescue the babies?

If you were in Germany in 1944 and down the street from you was a concentration camp. If you were aware that every day hundreds of people were being gassed and burnt in ovens? Would you respond to this murder by writing a note and placing it on a wall in the public square for others to view? Lamenting murder resolves nothing either on a public wall or a web site. Murder requires action.

What action should the OP take? I'm just wondering what you think.

However you like so many others compare a living breathing, thinking, caring human being to a small collection of cells, this is odd to me. The people being gassed to death, clawing at the walls are very different to a fetus that doesn't have any clue what is going on and to compare the two does a shocking disservice to those poor people who were killed in gas chambers. It cheapens their suffering.

You should be ashamed of that comparison.

Your defination of useful life would not include the severely mentally retarded and as such I would assume you would have no problem killing those as well. Hitler refered to these as "useless eaters". This is the justification Hitler used to exterminate millions of humans that were not evolved enough to constitute useful life, including many Germans. Once one has used this means test for the least of these it is a short trip to the ovens for all the rest of us.

Look, if government pandered to your views and banned abortion, do you honestly think that that would be the end of it? No, we'd go back to times of backstreet abortions. MORE lives would be lost via that course of action as women that have abortions without medical supervision are risking their own lives as well as the foetus.

"Backstreet abortion

Many illegal abortions are carried out using primitive surgical methods: injecting poisonous solutions into the womb or inserting objects intended to dislodge the foetus. These kinds of abortions are referred to as backstreet abortions because they are often carried out by someone with no training, in an unhygienic environment, in conditions of great secrecy"

Source


Now, onto the fact that you are a man. How would you feel if a woman on this board made a thread about how all men should be circumcised? Stating that in the interest of hygiene ALL men should have their foreskin removed without their consent? Indeed, it would be stepping on your rights as a human being.
No one has the right to be born. In some regard, a foetus is a parasite in the womb, to which it lives off of the mother. The foetus has no rights. The mother however, does, whether you agree with me or not.

reply to post by LoverBoy

By force? As in physically make someone not get an abortion? I am not understanding your view as by force. In Iraq when we said by force, someone was going to become a statistic. When my love was raped and received an abortion, some thug who tried stopping her "by force" would be six feet under.

Law is the ultimate force, that is what I meant by it. There are plenty of pro-lifers that want exactly that, abortion to be banned by law, and indeed it is in plenty of countries. My point was that it is illogical to tell someone who believes abortion is murder to let the woman choose, as Skeptic Heretic has written. If you want to convert a pro-lifer, then do not argue with liberty and choice and none of your business arguments. That is not going to change their opinion, because there is no liberty and choice about murder. Argue with biology instead.