Worried for Jehovah's Witnesses

Originally posted by ag893
Reply to post by timeoftheend

 

I've always figured something was wrong with those people. They were very nice but they got some f-ed up philosphies that are very false. What bothers me is that they go around random homes in the united states and act all nice and end up converting people. Even though they believe in false theories. The only way to salvation is to believe Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross for your sins. Its really not that hard to comprehend. These people have very different beliefs than what the bible says. I hope people have the gift of spiritual discernment to understand that. Because some people can be taken in by another human's kindness even if they are spreading false gospels. I believe this is how muslims get their believers. I won't fall for it. I realized in life that many people are wolves in sheep's clothing. A lot of people you meet might seem to be nice but do not have your best interest in mind. I have to concur jehovah witnesses do just that.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

ag893 - I believed you're misinformed, the basic belief of JW's are in the Bible.

Here's a site that explains clearly what they are: www.jw-media.org...

If you can spot any unscriptural teachings will you please let me know?

As for going from house to house - it's the most effective way of communicating to people - one on one - face to face. It's also the best way to know and meet our neigboors. Besides if you say you're a Christian - shouldn't you be doing the same thing?

Notice the Lord's command to you and I:

“. . .And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”” (Matthew 28:18-20)

“He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.”” (John 14:21)

So what say you?

thx,
edmc2

Jehovah's witnesses apparently distort or negate the Bible in many ways.

Here is one of many websites that analyze the many ways that Jehovah's witnesses attempt to distort God:
contenderministries.org...

Originally posted by chizeled
Jehovah's witnesses apparently distort or negate the Bible in many ways.

Here is one of many websites that analyze the many ways that Jehovah's witnesses attempt to distort God:
contenderministries.org...

Part I: Brief History

Chizeled…

Do you know that there was a time when Jehovah's Witnesses used to practiced and believed the things taught in Christendom? For example they used to celebrate birthdays, Christmas and other holidays. They also used to wear the cross. But upon learning from the Bible ((KJV, et al) and from historical facts that these were of pagan origin they wholeheartedly decided to abandon them. In their quest to learn the truths, they also found out that many of the doctrines taught in/by the Churches were not scriptural. In fact many of them they found were borrowed from Babylonish teachings and from human philosophies. Sadly these same unscriptural repulsive doctrines that were once unacceptable to some of the churches eventually became part of Christendom's doctrines and belief. Who made it happen? It's a long story but let's focus on these doctrines.

Some of these unscriptural doctrines just to mention a few are:

1) Hellfire / Eternal torment of souls in hellfire

2) Immortality of the soul

3) Worship of a triune god

4) …

Continuing...

Out of love for their neighbors these small band of Jehovah's Witnesses known as Bible Students started sharing the truths. They eagerly shared it with others. They explained and distributed it to various churches. But instead of appreciation they were met with ridicule and hatred. Happily they didn’t give up, instead they intensified their study and research with the understanding that God's word and his holy spirit will guide them to more truths. And they did, they found more truths that were once accepted by the churches but sadly were abandoned. They told the churches again - both to the clergy and the common people but they refused to believe. Again they were met with more ridicule and persecution but still continued the work of the Lord and were blessed, progressed and matured in their Godly knowledge.

One of the most remarkable gems of truths they found during their studies and research was the name of God. They found out that majority of the Bible translations available during their time including the beloved KJV did not contain the name of the author of the Bible - YHWH/Jehovah. To their surprise some translations have a few and some have it on just the Hebrew (OT) scriptures, although earlier manuscripts contained them. All in all they found out that God’s name was mentioned around 7000 times in the Bible.

Then it became clear to them that this intentional removal of God’s holy name, led to confusion in the minds of many. Instead using God’s name Jehovah/Yahweh – they used Lord. It muddled the true identity of Jesus and God which also led to the further acceptance of other unscriptural doctrines and the hating of God’s holy name Jehovah.

As a proof, let me please ask this simple direct question: Do you accept that God’s name is Jehovah and that it belongs in the Bible? Many just by hearing this name starts boiling.

Then throughout the years as they continue to learn more scriptural truths, they realized that further cleansing was needed, they got rid of unscriptural lifestyles such smoking tobacco, proper dress and grooming, bearing arms, political participations, the sanctity of blood, etc. And upon learning they also corrected some of the erroneous interpretations. They willingly corrected themselves when needed while on the other hand Christendom became more entrenched in the unscriptural teachings and doctrines and unscriptural practices.

Now, it is these mistakes, old discarded teachings, incomplete and twisted texts that opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses continue to use to slander them. They are all over the internet as well as people they meet in their house to house preaching.

A perfect example: the poster who said that "Jehovah's witnesses apparently distort or negate the Bible in many ways." What are the facts?

Thus it is at this juncture that I humbly ask the accuser to please respond and prove that the following are really "distortion/negation" of biblical truths. Let's find out who's telling the truth. Let's take just the first two of your beloved doctrines as a basis:

1) Eternal torment of souls in hellfire

2) Immortality of the soul

Here are the simple facts: Jehovah's Witnesses wholeheartedly believed and testify as a Witnesses for Jehovah that He is the very essence of Love, Mercy and Justice. Because of these scriptural knowledge they unquestionably know and believe that he did not create such a "fiendish" place called "hellfire". And that the soul is not immortal, not a separate part of man but the man himself, the living soul - thus the soul (the man) dies needing a savior and a resurrection. Soul can also refer to animal creatures.

Scriptural Truths

Following are just some of the many scriptural truths that they proclaim and adhere to:

God is Love:

John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (KJV)

“He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. ” (1 John 4:8 KJV)

"And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth," (Exodus 34:6 KJV)

"And Jehovah passed by before him, and proclaimed, Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abundant in lovingkindness and truth," (Exodus 34:6 ESV)

“Come now, and let us reason together, saith Jehovah: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. .” (Isaiah 1:18 ESV)

So chizeled, do you agree that Jehovah is a loving, merciful and just God based on such wonderful scriptural truths? I hope you do.

Question to you then is: will a loving, merciful and just God create such an awful place to torture and torment people forever? What say you? Will your god do it?

Next:

Soul - is the Living Person.

Scriptural proofs:

"And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Gen 2:7 KJV)

“And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. ” (Genesis 2:7 NWT)

"So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45 KJV)

“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul. ” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:45 NWT)

"And when a man smiteth any soul of man, he is certainly put to death." (Lev 24: 17 YNG)

"And the second poured out his bowl into the sea; and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living soul died, [even] the things that were in the sea." (Rev 16:3 KJV)

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. " (Ezek 18:4 KJV)

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecl 9:5 KJV)

So chizeled, do you agree with the scriptures above?

Did you happen to noticed how the “soul” was described: man is a living soul, soul can be put to death by man, and sea creatures are referred to as souls. When a man dies – he does not know anything - they seized to exist.

Now notice what scholars say about "soul", they say that:

“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy·khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450.

“The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses . . . , signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. . . . New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.

“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”—The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564.

So chizeled, is there any truth at all to the statements noted above? If no, why not? Please explain.

Fascinating thing is - these scholars themselves knew the truths but why not reveal them to their members and to all? Instead only the Witnesses are the ones preaching and teaching these truth.

What about this one?

What is the origin of Christendom’s belief in an immaterial, immortal soul?

According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454:

“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”

According to the Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.

“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”

According to —Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35.

“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”

and according to —Plato’s “Phaedo,” Secs. 64, 105, as published in Great Books of the Western World (1952), edited by R. M. Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp. 223, 245, 246.

“Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? . . . Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? . . . And does the soul admit of death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”

“The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.

So chizeled, do you agree with these scholars? So why not reveal them? Are you not aware of it?

What say you?

Part II: Hellfire - no

Bible “Hell”: (Hebrew she’ohl’ / Greek hai’des,)

Definition: The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohl′ and its Greek equivalent hai′des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge′en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment) -- RS.

So in its literal form Sheol/Hades (Hell) refers to "the common grave of dead mankind".

But because of the mixing of pagan teachings, philosophies (Dante, et al) and the traditions of men, the Bible "hell" (Sheol/Hades) became synonymous with "Hellfire". This is very apparent when it is translated into Gehenna.

Note: Gehenna (Valey of Hinom) -is a garbage dump yard outside of Jerusalem where garbage and dead bodies of those unworthy of burial are burned constantly using sulfur.

Since the Bible Gehenna is a literal fiery place in Jerusalem, thus it was automatically misinterpreted as a "hellfire". Sad part is, this misconception served as a powerful tool for the clergy class for a long time. They kept the common people under their control, in fear and enslaved by them. To disobey the words of a priest / deacon/bishop/pope meant that one is condemned to a fiery hell forever. It also served as a bottomless slush fund for the clergy class - the selling of indulgences and prayer for the departed souls. Many were left with a sense of guilt.

Now think about this - will you allow your dear loved ones burn in hell forever if you are able to help them? Thus by paying a priest to give a prayer for the dead (they now call this stole fee - done voluntarily) these sinners are thought to be elevated to another place (purgatory -Roman Catholic)? Sad part is this unscriptural teaching even today still holds a powerful grip on the masses.

This doctrine also led to the alienation of many people – especially educated ones. For how can (they ask) a loving and merciful God torture people in fiery hell forever? Many believers became afraid of God, serving him out of fear more than out of love.

I wonder what will you say to such a person?

Interesting thing is even commentators of Christendom acknowledge that Gehenna is not a place of eternal fiery torment.

Notice:

The New Bible Commentary (page 779) says:

“Gehenna was the Hellenized form of the name of the valley of Hinnom at Jerusalem in which fires were kept constantly burning to consume the refuse of the city. This is a powerful picture of final destruction.”

But did a loving God made or even thought of such a literal placed where people are to be burned forever?

Again what does the scripture say?

ASV - Jer 7:30 - For the children of Judah have done that which is evil in my sight, saith Jehovah: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it.

ASV - Jer 7:31 - And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind.

“And they have built the high places of To′pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’” (Jeremiah 7:31 NWT)


If such a place or such a despicable deed never even came up in God’s mind/heart why should he then create it?

Could it be that you misinterpreted the scriptures and unwilling to abandon such beloved unscriptural doctrine?

May I know your thoughts chizeled?

Part III: Confusion

Now, notice how the confusion is very apparent self evident when you start comparing different Bible versions even within the same version (KJV).

(Btw, these verses are used by Hellfire proponents as proof of hell.)

Source: www.blueletterbible.org.../17
KJV - Psa 9:17 -The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.

NKJV - Psa 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God.

NLT - Psa 9:17 - The wicked will go down to the grave.* This is the fate of all the nations who ignore God.

Footnote: * Hebrew to Sheol.

NIV - Psa 9:17 - The wicked return to the grave,* all the nations that forget God.

Footnote: * Hebrew Sheol

ESV - Psa 9:17 - The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

RVR - Psa 9:17 - Los malos serán trasladados al Seol, Todas las gentes que se olvidan de Dios.

NASB - Psa 9:17 - The wicked will *return to * Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.

RSV - Psa 9:17 - The wicked shall depart to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

ASV - Psa 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned back unto Sheol, Even all the nations that forget God.

YNG - Psa 9:17 - The wicked do turn back to Sheol, All nations forgetting God.

DBY - Psa 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned into Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

WEB - Psa 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.

HNV - Psa 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned back to She'ol, Even all the nations that forget God.

Noticed the exchanging of the words Sheol and Hell? Which one is which?

Compare again with these verses:

KJV - Rev 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

NKJV - Rev 20:13 - The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

HNV - Rev 20:13 - The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and She'ol gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.

WEB - Rev 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

See how "hell" "Sheol" and "Hades" were interchanged? Any idea why?


Now let's look at Gehenna / Hellfire / Hell (infierno):

KJV - Mar 9:47 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

NKJV - Mar 9:47 - "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire—

NLT - Mar 9:47 - And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to enter the Kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

NIV - Mar 9:47 - And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

ESV - Mar 9:47 - And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

RVR - Mar 9:47 - Y si tu ojo te fuere ocasión de caer, sácalo; mejor te es entrar en el reino de Dios con un ojo, que teniendo dos ojos ser echado al infierno,

NASB - Mar 9:47 - "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into * hell,

RSV - Mar 9:47 - And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

ASV - Mar 9:47 - And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell;

YNG - Mar 9:47 - And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --

DBY - Mar 9:47 - And if thine eye serve as a snare to thee, cast it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire,

WEB - Mar 9:47 - And if thy eye causeth thee to fall into sin, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell-fire.

HNV - Mar 9:47 - If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehinnom of fire,

See again how "Gehenna, Hell and Hell-fire" were interchanged? Any idea why?

Which one is the correct rendering? Based on older manuscripts the correct rendering is as follows:

Root Form (Greek): γέεννα geenna

“ 47 And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into the kingdom of God than with two eyes to be pitched into Ge·hen′na...” (Mark 9:47 NWT)


Now notice that even GOOD people go the Bible "hell" / Sheol:

ASV - Job 14:13 - Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

So chizeled - why would the RIGHTHEOUS Job want to go to Sheol (Hell) if it's a place of torment? He's already in torment because of his condition - does he want to suffer more?

Answer is of course not - because of his suffering he wanted to die and go to the common "GRAVE" of mankind.

Now let's compare with the KJV - notice how it renders the verse:

KJV - Job 14:13 - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

NKJV - Job 14:13 - "Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

“O that in She’ol you would conceal me, That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13 NWT)

So do you still doubt that Sheol = Hades = Grave? Only someone who refused to see the truth will continue to do so.

Below are four of the favorite scriptures used by champions of the hellfire and eternal torment doctrine. They quote it to prove that God will do such an act on such “fiendish” place of torture:

But before reading it let me please ask you this - in light of the evidence presented above, do the following verses below prove that God punishes people in hell-fire forever? If so, is it justice, love and mercy to you? If so does the time fit the crime?

Now put yourself in this situation please - you were saved for eternity enjoying life wherever you are at but at the same time have the knowledge that your son who sinned is being tormented in a fiery place forever. How would you feel? Is it love, justice and mercy? If yes, then right at this moment - be honest please:

If your little child disobeyed your command and made a terrible mistake (a sin), will YOU as a loving parent going to punish him by grabbing his little hands and place them on a hot stove for a minute or two? What about an hour, two hours, a day - get my point? Now will you call it justice? Does the punishment fit the crime? Would you call it loving or cruel? To me I see it as a cruel act . For no loving, just and merciful father will do such a thing. If a loving human will not do such a despicable act, how much more with God who gave his only begotten son to die for all sinners. Yet that IS EXACTLY what this doctrine does – it portrays a Loving God into a vengeful and cruel one.

Do you really believe such a cruel doctrine?

But some may say - so what is the correct meaning then of the scripture (below) if not eternal torment?

(KJV - Mat 25:46, Revelations 14:11, Rev 19:20 and Rev 20:10)

There’s a clear logical explanation but I would like to know your side first.

Finally chizeled, as the champion believer of Hellfire and Eternal torment, can you explain why a sinner will forever be tormented in hellfire by a loving, merciful and just God?

I await your reply,


thx,

edmc2

btw, the resurrection hope for the dead is also in contrary to the hellfire-eternal torment doctrine, but that’s for another time.