Abolish the hoax forum or risk losing credibility forever, ATS

reply to post by rapunzel222


I may have posted on that thread. I remember exactly the video of the CNN reporter. I have multiple video of the reptilian eye thing and although people always try to say it is a compressor error they can never explain why the camera suddenly jumps off screen at exactly the right moment, almost in a panic. I admit it's hard to believe, but isn't this a conspiracy website? Not a "let's all be squeaky clean" website.

Originally posted by filosophia
Why not let democracy and debate decide, rather than absolute rule?

Honestly - because it doesn't work. There are too many people here who absolutely REFUSE to look at the evidence for what it is because they only see it for whatever they want it to be.

The idea of "majority rules" is unfortunately nothing but a naive ideal when most people have proven time and time again they simply can't think critically, or for themselves. It sucks, but it is what it is.

The biggest problem holding back the UFO subject for example is that most of the real stuff gets lost in all the nonsense. I would gladly trade whatever few babies get thrown out with the hoax bathwater if it meant cleaning out the UFO closet so other people could clearly see the 2% of cases that really can't be debunked.

But instead these babies are the ones getting constantly drowned out in all the dirty disinfo bathwater.

If you really want to believe some sketchy youtube video is unequivocal proof of alien visitation, then more power to ya. But weak subjective evidence like that will never convince the world, so arguing over it is completely pointless no matter what the truth is. People usually just do it only to reaffirm their already pre-existing beliefs, not because they actually care about truth.

In the bigger picture - a hoax forum does much more good than it does harm.

I think if anything - instead of getting rid of the hoax forum, ATS should counter it by developing some sort of hall-of-fame forum. i.e. showcase the stuff where the debunkings are the sketchy explanation, not vice versa.

Originally posted by mc_squared

Originally posted by filosophia
Why not let democracy and debate decide, rather than absolute rule?

Honestly - because it doesn't work. There are too many people here who absolutely REFUSE to look at the evidence for what it is because they only see it for whatever they want it to be.

this works both ways. Some people refuse to look at the evidence that proves something labeled a hoax is not a hoax.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by mc_squared
Having a hoax forum is one of the few things that allows ATS to maintain some much needed credibility, considering all the nonsense that gets regularly posted, starred & flagged here every week.

This website doesn't need to pander to the obviously ludicrous elements of conspiracy thinking any more than it already does. Their motto is deny ignorance, not deny whatever it is you don't want to hear

but if a thread isn't a hoax but they labeled it a hoax, they are denying truth, are they not? How do you know with absolute certainty everything they label a hoax is a hoax? I have heard ats moderators openly declare they do not endorse certain hoax threads as being hoaxes, so that right there means there is dissenting opinion. Why not let democracy and debate decide, rather than absolute rule?

edit on 12-2-2011 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

to the original poster in this argument;

who decides whats a ludicrous consipracy and what's not?

you're censoring free thought and speech.

plenty might think 9/11 is a ludicrous conspiracy.

i thought this forum was a place to debate what others might think are 'ludicrous conspiracies' (i know my mother does) without being shouted down and ridiculed for having an opinion

if it's a totally lame idea, no one will respond much to the thread. it will take care of itself. why label it a hoax?

i've read hoax threads where i didnt think it WAS a hoax; or i wasnt convinced.

calling it a hoax is therefore insulting to those members who think differently and are entitled to their opinion.

Originally posted by rapunzel222
who decides whats a ludicrous consipracy and what's not?

The facts do.

ATS already caters to a lot of loosey-goosey stuff that isn't in the hoax forum, so it takes a special breed of explicit nonsense to make it in there.

I am glad they do this and in fact I wish they would do it more. If you have a problem with it there are PLENTY of other "open-minded" websites out there who subscribe much more to your line of thinking.

I am a conspiracy theorist, a pretty hardcore one - but I am tired of critical thinking within conspiracy theories always taking a backseat to paranoid sensationalist BS that hides under the pretense of a so-called open mind.

We can argue over it till the cows come home but the fact is sometimes you just can't have your cake and eat it too. The hoax forum is not closed. You can still debate and discuss away all you want in there, so it's not like you're being silenced. If you don't like the label that comes with it, then like I said - plenty of other websites to choose from...

The funny thing is though, what kind of credibility do those places have compared to ATS?

Exactly.

Well..that is a good point..for example...

I posted this thread..www.abovetopsecret.com...

I even gave a reason why i thought it wasn't a Hoax on purpose..

but if you read my thread, well, you can see where it goes..

my advice..research really good first..

reply to post by filosophia

Now, take something like this: www.abovetopsecret.com...

"The mossad did 9/11", which received 126 stars, and an unknown number of flags (the flags were removed because it was labeled a hoax). Now, if you ask some 9/11 truthers, they will tell you for sure that mossad did 9/11, and yet ATS labels it a hoax and removes the posters flags, why? It says it's based on known hoaxes. Which are those? I read through the thread, and what I got from it is that the thread was labeled a hoax because it claims no Jews were killed in the WTC bombings. However, that is not true. The thread states

A lot of time it's verbage in the title and or absolute claims in the title or opening post tht lead to something being labelled hoax...for instance...

ABSOLUTE PROOF THE MOSSAD DID 9-11 MUST READ! (hoax) unless you have absolute court of law quality proof to try and convict on this.

DID THE MOSSAD PLAY A HAND IN 9-11 (not a hoax) no absolute claim has been made.

lets try another example

UFO OVER TEMPLE MOUNT PROOF THAT ALIENS ARE AMONGST US (hoax) unless you can prove there was a real unidentified craft with alien life forms in it with court of law quality proof.

INTRIUGING VIDEO OF OBJECT PURPORTED TO BE OVER TEMPLE MOUNT (not a hoax) no absolute claim has been made.

Number one thing that gets what would be some great discussion threads hoaxed is absolute claims of proof by the author in the title or opening body when no absolute proof really exists.

Probably the most common reason members make this mistake is they think it will cause more people to read the thread or it's a subject they are very passionate about.

Avoid claims of absolute proof unless you have the kind that will stand up in a court of law.

Think you have that kind of proof and can prove the MOSSAD did 9-11 contact the U.S. Attorney's Office, local FBI, or your Congress Person or Senator.

If you don't have the kind of proof that causes you to do that, then no you have perhaps some great circumstantial evidence and some credible theories but no you don't have proof.

ATS will give you a lot of leeway in hashing out or working out a theory but if you claim you have proof, and it's a major or serious issue, well you better have proof that passes the court of law bar, or yeah it's going to get hoaxed if people start objecting to it for political reasons.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


to prove something in a court of law is akin to proving something in a circus, especially when it comes to anything involving the CIA and especially the mossad. I don't really need to say anything more than that, other than you did not comment on my analysis of the flagrant misinterpretation of a fact within the thread that led to ats labeling it a hoax. If you agree that absolute claims deserve the hoax label, you ought to also agree that the hoax label itself is an absolute claim and by your own logic deserves the hoax label.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

to prove something in a court of law is akin to proving something in a circus, especially when it comes to anything involving the CIA and especially the mossad. I don't really need to say anything more than that, other than you did not comment on my analysis of the flagrant misinterpretation of a fact within the thread that led to ats labeling it a hoax. If you agree that absolute claims deserve the hoax label, you ought to also agree that the hoax label itself is an absolute claim and by your own logic deserves the hoax label.

I don't make the rules here on ATS, but I can say I usually try to understand the rules everywhere so I can look for those loop holes and how they can be bent, because well, that's my nature.

There is a limit up to which you can go and then after that you are just more or less urinating into the wind.

No you aren't going to prove the major conspiracies that take place, here or any where else, because the Powers that Be really do have all the angles covered, bless there little evil black hearts.

The boys are thinkers, what can I say.

Now the million dollar question is how are you going to out think them? Or do you just want to cry or pray, which does no good at all.

ATS is a great place to put some 'ideas' out there, and if you know how to do it within the parameters that you can, then you can accomplish what you want to through the site, get information to people that will help them change their thinking.

It's a divide and conquer world based on Hegelian principles, so yeah, there is always going to be some deeply brainwashed and committed passionate faction who politically is going to always oppose absolute claims.

I suspect the Mossad was involved in 9-11 simply and for no other reason that they are such a competent intelligence agency it would have been impossible for it to have gone down without them getting wind of it and without them at least deciding to let it go down.

That's ditto for the CIA, they like to come across as incompetent clods that drop the ball and screw the pooch but that's only so we don't fear them to the level we should and would if we actually realized just how competent and committed these guys are.

It's a big boys game, in a big boys world, and yes, while that's brutal and cruel to the people who can't compete, don't want to compete, don't know how to compete, refuse to compete on that level, it still is what it is.

I think there might be something to that Temple Mount UFO too, I don't really care what the skeptics or theorists say most of the time or whether ATS Hoax's it, I just appreciate the opportunity to review it all and make up my own mind.

Intelligent and independent thinkers will and many will keep it to themselves, especially if they are someone gravitating towards the big leagues or in them, and though you might not know it, or believe it, there are some big league players here on ATS masquerading as tin foil hats, and schills and everything else.

Bottom line is learn the rules, the constricts, work smartly within them, push it to the line, walk it, lean over with out stepping over, but if you do well then, hey it will get hoaxed, and no one will hear about it all after that.

Work smart, play smart, think smart, live smart, Get Smart on Blu Ray Disc the complete First and Second Season available now at retailers and amazon.com!

Thanks.

reply to post by mc_squared


er, what facts are these?

there were no 'facts' involved in my thread that proved a hoax.

no one ever proved it was a compression fault.

this was an ASSUMPTION based on people's belief systems. no fact.

and i suppose you know lots of aliens and what their capabilities are?

so you'd know of course, that in the universe of trillions of suns; it's impossible for a species of alien to act like vampires do and suck human blood?

you'd know its impossible for an advanced alien race to disguise themselves as humans through technology?

or to 'shapeshift' via technology or other means?

well done.

wish i knew as much as you seem to.

i'm sorry but that argument is just stupid/ludicrous.

those statements are statements of OPINION. i.e. 9/11 was an inside job = statmenet of someone's OPINION.

you can't label something a Hoax just because you dont agree with the original statement of opinion; or because you think the opinion was expressed too strongly.

you can respond to the OP and say, i disagree with your opening statement of opinion and think 9/11 was not an inside job.

but you can't label the thread a 'hoax' simply becaus someone expressed a strong opinion.

we're all entitled to our (strong) opinions.

that's called DEBATE.

reply to post by mc_squared


i agree with the OP - having the hoax forum on ats damages its credibility vis a vis open minded debate.

the mainstream would probly laugh at you and say your opinions are loosy goosy for posting here even.

yet without ats who would you talk to?

how could you have discussions with people.

all you're doing is putting your own opinions and beliefs onto others by defining the standard of what YOU think is loosy goosy and what YOU think isn't.

who cares what you think?

are you god?

everyone's entitled to their opinion.

I have had a hoaxed thread
it turns out it was a hoax.
no problem
but then the hoax becomes a topic itself
why the hoax? for example
and the issues still exist as potential topics of debate

I think somethings that might have value in discussion though get bathwatered with the baby.

I like Proto's take that it is how you phraze the title.
thats a good point
Yet newsy threads have to take the title given so one might avoid that little pothole if questionable topics are news..

reply to post by filosophia


on ATS your thread can be labeled a hoax by popular vote, there were gangs of sycophants who would attack en masse. You had to learn who the mod's favorites were and absolutely never go head to head with an owner.

Once your thread has the 'hoax' label affixed it is near impossible to get it removed. Other members come on a different thread and throw it up in your face, i saw you hoax. I have never knowingly posted anything untrue and when i accidentally did, i corrected it as soon as possible.

strange to say, a lot of nasty posts disappeared from that thread and i became a pariah on ats, still am i guess.

reply to post by youthsavior


Hello Youthsaviour,
From your posts, it can be easily deduced that your new to this forum...Well according to my opinion, world is crawling with know-it-alls, arrogants, egoistical, pompous,..people, similarly you can find such people on internet forums too...Especially when discussing about Billy Meier case, they lose all perspective and start parroting what others copied from others and others and....
So those who are intelligent enough have shifted their discussions and debates somewhere else..so i would suggest you to visit FIGU forum to have a healthy and open minded debate....
all the best

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I don't see what's so ridiculous about this title:

The CIA/MOSSAD, AMAN/DIA did 9/11!

They are naming four different agencies that had involvement in 9/11. It's not like they are saying "Bush did 9/11" blaming it all on one person.

I searched for "Bush did 9/11" into the ATS search and found multiple threads, none of them named a hoax

Jesse Ventura: Bush and Cheney did 9/11: www.abovetopsecret.com...

NOT labeled a hoax

9/11: the feds did it: www.abovetopsecret.com...

NOT labeled a hoax.

I think these thread titles are more ridiculous than the Mossad title. I mean "the feds did it" is blaming the entire federal government, including postal workers. And "Bush and Cheney" did it is ridiculously assuming two people could pull off the entire conspiracy.

So what have you to say to that?

/signed

Get rid of the [HOAX] title and forum.

One should be able to make up their own mind on subjects.

Furthermore, the title and movement of the thread generally means that no more investigating will be done, therefore not denying ignorance.

All based on how a certain person or small group of people view the subject material.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by filosophia

NOT having the "truth" shoved down their throat by having the HOAX sticker slapped onto it.

The ability to weed out the fiction in search of the truth is what gives ATS credibility for me. Also, I believe that having a Hoax Forum keeps us from seeing the same over-imaginative or purposely deceitful stories repeatedly. There are plenty of far fetched threads started everyday that do not get tossed in the Hoax Forum. I know that I wouldn't read threads here almost everyday, if I had to look through too much outright bull poo.

i agree. although there needs to be some kind of control hoax is a strong word and it is deemeing. there are threads that have been hoaxed that people have rightly taken unbridge to and rightly so. it is not far how some things are automaticaly put in certain groups. for example chemtrails are often moved into the grey area. I am not into chemtrail but they have no more or less evidence for them than for example ghosts... it would be nice if some things were reavulated although i doubt that will happen..

kx

Sounds to me like a thread of yours was trashed, and this little rant of yours is the only means of action, to " get even" with the mods? So to save face, you come here whining and complaining, trying to depict yourself as educated individual, and yet, lost all credibility you once had?

Thread FAIL~