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An Analysis of the WTC on 9/11 . . .

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posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 04:27 PM
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All,

Among the most challenging tasks confronting 9/11 research is figuring
out how the Twin Towers were destroyed. I have long doubted that it
could have been done by thermite and conventional explosives, which
has been strengthened by recent collaborative research with a chemical
engineer. I have therefore encouraged the study of alternative modes
of destruction of the towers, which did not "collapse", including the use
of nukes (3rd or 4th generation, fission or fusion), lasers, masers, and
directed energy weapons--land-based, air-based, or space-based--which
has led some to talk about "death rays from space" and the like. I do
NOT advocate "space beams" as such, but I ADVOCATE THE STUDY
of alternative theories of how this may have been done and welcome
sincere contributions but participants here who share this objective.

I continue to feature guests to discuss how it was done--since we still
do not know--on "The Real Deal", where my recent guests have made
arguments for (new generation) mini-nukes, for Tesla-style devices, and
other options. They can be found at the archives for the program, which
are at radiofetzer.blogspot.com.... I have also long insisted understand-
ing the physics of the "collapse" of the Twin Towers does not require an
understanding beyond 10th grade physics. A former high-school teacher
(of physics and chemistry), Chuck has produces multiple lines of proof
that the Twin Towers simply could not have collapsed. The support of
the lower floors upward was on the order of 1/199, where there was more
than 199 times as much upward support as there was downward pressure,
a nice complement to John Skilling's remark that the buildings could carry
more than 20 times their expected live loads (dead loads plus occupancy).

One of the most interesting points that Chuck makes, which you can hear
in the archives, by the way, is that, since it is supposed to be the mass
(weight) of the upper portions of the buildings (the top 16 floors of the
North Tower and the top 30 of the South), which is officially alleged to
have brought about their "collapse". Indeed, the relative weight of the
upper portion of the North Tower in relation to the lower floors is on the
order of 1.8% as opposed to 98.2%. Recall it is the alleged plane strikes
hit around the 96th floor of the North and the 80th of the South, where
the fires allegedly weakened or melted the steel, causing those sections
to "collapse" onto the rest). But since the top 30 floors of the South
Tower tilted over and started to fall as an intact segment (before it
turned into very fine dust in space), it was no longer physically there
to exert downward force and contribute to a "collapse". Considerations
like these only affect those who actually rely upon logic and evidence.

For an overview of my position and slides of most of the evidence that
I discuss below, watch my Powerpoint presentation from Buenos Aires:

"Was 9/11 an 'Inside Job'?"
twilightpines.com...

For the big picture on the gross observable evidence that invalidates
theories that they buildings were brought down by any kind of collapse:

"New 9/11 Photographs Released"
jamesfetzer.blogspot.com...

AN ANALYSIS OF THE WTC ON 9/11

Jim Fetzer

Critics like to attribute to me positions that I do not actually hold. While I
encourage research on unconventional weaponry, including nukes, lasers,
masesrs, and plasmoids, I haven't reached any conclusion about which is
the more likely. Certainly, nothing in any of the posts of my critics has
convince me that I am wrong about this, but then they seem to be more
directed against positions that I don't hold than those that I do. Some of
those I encourage studying are highly controversial but are intellectually
stimulating and worth studying. Judy Wood, Ph.D., a former professor
of mechanical engineering, for example, uses words like "dustification" to
guard against taking for granted that what we are seeing is familiar and
fits within our existing conceptual scheme, which is a very sophisticated
move, intellectually. For your consideration, here's an analysis of the World
Trade Center that reflects the extent to which I have reached conclusions.

Given all the misrepresentations, this more than just for the record. While
I have no illusions that those attacking me are going to "clean up their act"
and discuss my actual positions, I am optimistic that some of those here
will be able to advance my understanding of these issues based on their
own background and expertise. I don't claim that I am right on all counts,
but it is extremely unlikely that I am wrong about the general situation,
which is supported by physicists, structural and mechanical engineers and
others experts. I assume that some kinds of conventional explosives were
used in the Twin Towers, but I doubt that they--even when combined with
thermite/thermate--can explain the evidence from their destruction. But
I am open to discussion and invite reasoned arguments both pro and con.

The differences in the modes of destruction of the Twin Towers and
WTC-7 are rather substantial, include the following characteristics:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . WTC-1 & WTC-2 / WTC-7

. . . Sequence: . . . . . . Top down . / . Bottom up

. . . Floor motion: . . Stationary . / Falling together

. . . Mechanism: . . Pulverization* / Controlled Demolition

. . . Time/Speed: . . About 10 secs. / About 6.5 secs.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (~ free fall) . . (~ free fall)

. . . Remnants: . . . . No pancakes . . / . Pancakes
. . . . . . . . . . . . (below ground level) . (5-7 floors)

They display substantial difference even in gross appearance.

On WTC-7, watch YouTube: "This is an Orange"
www.youtube.com...

On the Twin Towers, see: "9/11: Towers of Dust"
www.youtube.com...

Their modes of destruction thus appear to have been different.

. . . Debris motion: . Upward & . / . Remaining
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Outward . . . . . Intact

. . . Key Difference: . Explosion . / . Implosion

If WTC-7 was brought down in a classic controlled demolition--
as virtually all sides agree--then WTC-1 and WTC-2 were not.

For a still series, see "New 9/11 Photos Released"
jamesfetzer.blogspot.com...

The phrase, "controlled demolition" still applies, since they
too were brought down by a demolition that was under control.

* NOTE: One commentator has suggested the "pulverization" conveys
the impression that the process was mechanical, when it might have
been chemical, nuclear, electro-magnetic, or something else indeed.

We still do not know how the Twin Towers were destroyed and other
odd kinds of damage were done to WTC-3, WTC-4, WTC-5, and WTC-
6, not to mention the "toasted cars". It poses a scientific challenge.

I want to provide an outline below why I believe that unconventional
mechanisms must have been involved in the destruction of the towers.
The possibilities fall into several rather broad categories, some of which
are more for the sake of completeness than they are serious options.

(h1) Natural Causes: hurricane, tornado, earthquake

~(h1) The damage was isolated to a specific area of Manhattan, as
though only buildings with "WTC" designations were targeted.
These are not the kinds of effects brought about by nature.

(h2) Aircraft & Fires: plane crashes caused fires, weakened the
steel, and led to the initiation of a pancake collapse.

~(h2) The fires burned neither long enough nor hot enough to even
weaken much less melt the steel. The conditions to cause
a "collapse initiation" were not present. A non-starter.

(h3) Conventional plus thermite/thermate: the buildings had been
preped for demolition and the crashes were mere distractions.

(h3) Conventional plus thermite/thermate: the buildings had been
preped for demolition and the crashes were mere distractions.

~(h3) The steel and concrete structures--estimated to weigh in at
around 500,000 tons apiece--were largely turned into huge
clouds of very fine dust. This does not appear to be the
probable outcome of conventional explosives, with or with-
out thermite/thermate. Many features of the destruction
appear to contradict this very popular theory of the case:

(e1) the buildings were destroyed below ground level;

(e2) some footage shows spires turning to fine dust;

(e3) WTC-6 has a block of mass missing from its core;

(e4) WTC-5 has many "cookie cutter" forms of damage;

(e5) WTC-4 remains half present, half completely gone;

(e6) WTC-3 has a massive gash through most of the building;

(e7) there are thousands of "toasted cars" near and far;

(e8) some are wilted and look very much like wet rags;

(e9) many have engine blocks destroyed but are otherwise
pristine;

(e10) tons upon tons of paper were not destroyed thereby; and,

(e11) there appear to have been no "massive pools of molten
metal":

(e11a) around 11 million gallons of water were poured on
Ground Zero;

(e11b) if there had been massive pools of molten metal,
there should have been enormous steam explosions;

(e11c) there were no massive steam explosions, which means
either 11 million gallons of water were not poured
on Ground Zero or there were not massive pools of
molten metal, but the water was poured on the site;

(e11d) several photographs alleged to support the existence
of massive pools of molten metal are phony or faked;

(e11d1) the responders peering into the cavern of
molten metal cannot possibly be authentic;

(elld2) the photo of the grappler handling a glow-
ing piece of steel cannot be authentic;

(elld3) the stream of molten metal from the 80th
floor is suspect on several grounds:

(e11d3a) it sometime appears emanating
from one location, sometimes
from another;

(e11d3b) it appear to be a unique effect,
suggesting that it was caused by
something distinctive about that
floor owned by the Fuji Bank;

(e11d3c) if it were caused by thermite/
thermate, then presumably since
that must have been distributed
throughout the buildings, streams
of this kind should be evident in
a more or less random pattern,
but that is not the case.

(e11d4) photos of the subbasement level of WTC-1
show pools of water that are not bubbling
and workers walking with seeming impunity;

(e11d5) other photos show workers enveloped in a
kind of mist, which, were it steam, would
have scalded them and possibly killed them;

(e11d6) geothermal maps for 23 September 2002 show
a dramatic subsiding of "hot spots" in com-
parison with thermal maps for 16 September.

These reasons have convinced me that (h3) is most unlikely to be true, even
in its latest "nano-thermite" variation. I therefore believe that we have
to look elsewhere for an adequate explanation of the available evidence, in
particular, that we have to consider various kinds of high-tech weaponry.

(h4) mini-nukes: 3rd or 4th generation, hydrogen bombs, etc.

~(h4) It is not apparent to me how (h4) can account for most of the same
effects that undermine (h3), from (e1) through (e11). One of the
most important contraindications of intense heat--which would have
accompanied the use of thermite/thermate/nano-thermite--is the vast
quantities of paper that survived undamaged, unburned, and intact.

My rejection of nukes is actually tentative. I interviewed Demitri Khalezov
on "The Real Deal" on Friday, 21 January 2011, and Charles Boldwyn and
I discussed his theory and several others on Wednesday, 9 February 2011.
Both are among the most recent archived at radiofetzer.blogspot.com....

(h5) plasmoids: gases that appear to have advantages over thermite:

. . . . . . Data: . . . too many too tiny . . pyroclastic . . . fires burned for
. . . . . . . . . . . . . particles in dust . . . dust clouds . . . some 99 days

. . . . . . Plasma . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . despite
. . . . . . (tens of . . . . molecular . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . constant
. . . . . thousands . . . dissociation . . . . unavoidable . . . . . dousing
. . . . . of degrees) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . with water

. . . . . Thermite . . . . unknown
. . . . . (thousands . . . pulverization . . unaccounted . . . . unaccounted
. . . . . of degrees . . . mechanism . . . . . . . . for . . . . . . . . . for

~(h5) both thermite/thermate and plasma would have produced vast pools
of molten metal, which do not appear to have been present at the
scene by (e11) above. Plus how could the paper have survived?

Whatever mechanism was involved appears to have induced molecular
dissociation. What was mistaken for smoke appears to have been a
kind of "misting" as a part of the residue from molecular dissociation.
That WTC-7 has already been rebuilt but the site of the Twin Towers
remains dormant suggest that it may be difficult or even impossible
to rebuild, given the residual effects of molecular dissociation.

(h6) directed energy weapons: lasers, masers, or something like them
Here I must admit that, as a philosopher, I am at the borderline of my
competence to resolve the matter. I have repeatedly explained why I
do not believe that (h1) through (h3) can be correct. Here I go a bit
further and explain why (h4) and (h5) also appear implausible to me. I
am convinced that molecular dissociation took place, but I confess that
I am not presently able to discriminate between alternative mechanisms
for bringing that about. I presume future studies will resolve this. Any
adequate explanation must account for the evidence enumerated here,
including turning these buildings into millions of cubic yards of very
fine dust, the selective destruction of the buildings and the "toasted
cars", and the survival of enormous quantities of paper! These facts,
in my view, undermine (h3) and tend to undermine (h4) and (h5). What
seems to be required are devices that could focus on parts of buildings
and selectively destroy components of vehicles without also destroying
the rest of those buildings or the other components of those vehicles.

I am indebted to Judy Wood for explaining most of the arguments that I
have made here during extended interviews and conversations we have had
in the past. I encourage everyone who wants to better understand the
evidence supporting my position to visit her site, drjudywood.com...,
and to obtain the DVD from the Madison Conference, "The Science and
Politics of 9/11", which includes a masterful presentation by her and
the commentary by a member of the audience who holds a Ph.D. in theo-
retical physics that she is now convinced that masers had to be used.

Even Sir Karl Popper has adopted modesty in comparison with the work
of physicists, chemists, and others who unpack the laws of nature by
means of their research. I can only say that, based upon my review
of the evidence I have presented here, I am convinced that whatever
happened to the WTC, it cannot be adequately explained on the basis
of conventional explosives with or without thermite/thermate. The
latest appeals to nano-thermite, moreover, do not appear promising
to account for the effects that I have enumerated above in the form
of (e1) through (e11). But I am willing to consider alternatives.

ADDENDUM:

Elaborating on (e11d1), (e11d2), and (e11d3): The photo of workers
peering into the glowing cavern would imply that the temperature there
was around 3,000*F! Would you even place your face of the spout of a
teapot when it starts to whistle? And that's only a bit above 212*F.

The point about the grappler is that the hydraulics do not work at tem-
peratures far, far below the temperatures transmitted by glowing steel.
They are quite modest, around 350*F, as I recall. But you can check
out Judy's site for the exact figures. You really should visit there.

The point about the stream of molten metal from the 80th floor is that,
if it really was caused by thermite or thermate and thermite or thermate
or nano-thermite was the principal cause of the destruction of the towers,
then we should have these streams flowing all over the place at random.

Jim
edit on 12-2-2011 by JimFetzer because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-2-2011 by JimFetzer because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by JimFetzer
 


Very comprehensive analysis jim. A puzzle wrapped up in a mystery, wrapped up in an enigma, it seems. Impossible contradictions are are play here and this indicates to me that the whole scenario has been set up and designed to befuddle, bemuse and bewilder and to continually sustain arguement, conjecture and confusion. One thing that seems clear is that there is alot of video and photographic fakery in play, and to critically and professionally analyze and dissect the physics of fakery is a completely redundant exercise, and can only ever lead to ongoing disputing and opining, all based on artificial physical premises. I am sure you will come across the usual suspects who will try to muddy the waters and distort your arguements even futher and i predict that at the end of this thread you will have moved no further on in your understanding of exactly what went down, and how.
Best of luck though.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by JimFetzer
I have long doubted that it could have been done by thermite and conventional explosives, which
has been strengthened by recent collaborative research with a chemical engineer. I have therefore encouraged the study of alternative modes of destruction of the towers, which did not "collapse", including the use of nukes (3rd or 4th generation, fission or fusion), lasers, masers, and directed energy weapons--land-based, air-based, or space-based--which has led some to talk about "death rays from space" and the like.



Originally posted by pshea38
reply to post by JimFetzer
 
Impossible contradictions are are play here and this indicates to me that the whole scenario has been set up and designed to befuddle, bemuse and bewilder and to continually sustain arguement, conjecture and confusion. One thing that seems clear is that there is alot of video and photographic fakery in play, and to critically and professionally analyze and dissect the physics of fakery is a completely redundant exercise, and can only ever lead to ongoing disputing and opining, all based on artificial physical premises. I am sure you will come across the usual suspects who will try to muddy the waters and distort your arguements even futher and i predict that at the end of this thread you will have moved no further on in your understanding of exactly what went down, and how.


Yes, whatever destroyed WTC 1 & 2 was extremely unusual. I think even if someone could irrefuatbly determine what caused the destruction it would be extremely difficult to PROVE IT to most people. I bet the technology would be too complicated for most to comprehend. It would sound like somthing out of science fiction.

But who could be using that technology?

After NINE YEARS we have a HUGE PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEM. The confusion about the cause has contributed to the psychological problem. The more sophisticated the tech involved in the destruction the less likely it could have been done by 19 Arabs led by a bearded fanatic in a cave.

But the next level of the psychological problem is our MIS-educational System. If it was TRULY IMPOSSIBLE for airliners to TOTALLY DISINTEGRATE skyscraper 2000 times their mass in LESS THAN TWO HOURS then physics instructors all over the country should have figured it out within months and been able to explain it. So for them to have remained silent for NINE YEARS is pretty ominous. How can they change their minds? How can the teach physics? So how can this bull# end?

psik



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 09:40 PM
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Both excellent and thoughtful posts.

Here are some additional resources:

On the conversion of steel into dust:

xenonpup.startlogic.com...

Some background on scalar devices:

www.cheniere.org...



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by JimFetzer
 


quote Among the most challenging tasks confronting 9/11 research is figuring out how the Twin Towers were destroyed end quote,

I don't know, I am of the opinion all we need to do is two things,

1 Prove it was not planes alone that caused the collapse (plane impact plus fires)
2 Allow people the opportunity to accept this as a fact.

I am convinced a single plane crash would not produce the type of collapse witnessed on that day for each of the major towers but I have a more difficult time explaining consciously how this process would work, especially when confronted with the valid argument that I am not an expert.

So example, take a 110 story building with a somewhat unusual design structurem crash a large plane at 500 mph into it near the top, wait about an hour and watch the entire thing turn into a dust cloud of concrete which collapses at basically free-fall speed essentially into its own footprint. The OS narrative does not make sense when you look at it but I don't know enough to explain it to people in a convincing enough way.

Anyway, the OP is a bit wordy and I would prefer some 'take home' style points so I can understand the main argument you are making yet its great your making the effort when so many on ATS (deliberately or not) mis-frame arguments and cloud the debate


Peace all



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 06:13 AM
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Ok boys and girls, ladies and gentemen, if you really want to find out WHAT happened on 9/11 you need look no farther than Where did the Towers go?
And while you are at it please ask yourself deeply why it is that Fetzer is trying so desperately to cover up this amazing document.
And while you are at it ask yourself why the best reason he can come up with for there being no toilets, no toilet debris other any pieces of ceramics from the 6,000 or more toilets is that Israeli art students snuck off with them the day before. I kid you not. And you trust this guy? Wow.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 06:54 AM
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reply to post by marwei2
 


Chekced out the link, load of rubbish IMHO. Glossy presentation and a load of hype but no substance, worth looking at to know to avoid it. Why can't the author tell us what they think instead of trying to peddle a $40 dollar book, oh wait, I just answered my own question.

The framing of debate is so important and if 9/11 was an inside job it would make sense for the handlers to try to shape the debate of the opposition, playing both sides so to speak in a similar way to mainstream left-right ideas in politics, here on ATS people see through the lies (I hope)



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 07:23 AM
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To all new users or lurkers to this site reading this thread. These theories are out there and have never ever been embraced by the truth community and victims families. These theories have been proven years ago to come from the very people covering up 911. These theories of energy weapons, pods, holograms and video fakery were created to smear and muddy the waters of truth by injecting proven nonsensical theories in forums like this.

Now because this is ATS and most theories are welcomed. Threads like this by the author have been met with much hostility and disgust among truthers and victim's families of 911.

When people and forums are shown the official story is false and fabricated these far-out theories of space beams and holograms pop up. When debunkers get their hats handed to them they refer that " you truthers and your energy weapons...sigh" are a fringe group.

Bottom line. We know players and creators of these theories are purposely smearing the 911 truth movement and forums like this. 99% of 911 investigators have been fighting these theories and making it clear that these people who start and spread these theories are actually connected to the Official story believers.

For example.... I am debunker. I believe the official story and we as debunkers and believers of the official story also believe in child abuse. gay love and white supremacy. Most of us debunkers are in jail right now for child abuse cases but we get internet access and decide to support the official story. ( this is the same method they use on truthers or researchers of 911)

Added: This thread has 4 flags most likely flagged by debunkers again hoping it gets front page coverage as so they tell everyone "Look! Ats users embrace hologram an tv fakery theories, what buffoons!"
edit on 13-2-2011 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 07:37 AM
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reply to post by Shadow Herder
 


Your anology is flawed. I don't recall any " debunkers " advocating child abuse on here. There has been no shortage of " truther " members advocating no planes, no victims, nukes, dew weapons, holograms, cgi, video fakery etc etc etc though.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 07:47 AM
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reply to post by Alfie1
 



Well your not a debunker, you are just ignorant to the facts that have been excepted by scholars and intellects around the world that the 911 official story was created and has for the most part been proven with facts that the official story of 911 is false.

But to each his own, I remember being so naive that I would argue with people who didnt think santa was real but then I developed my intelligence and know better. Some people think that hurting children is ok others think its a major crime.

As far a 911 debunkers being child abusers.... I bet there are more 911 official story believers serving jail terms for child abuse, rape and other deplorable crimes than truthers. Its just the facts. Think about it.
edit on 13-2-2011 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)
edit on 13-2-2011 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 08:02 AM
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reply to post by yyyyyyyyyy
 


How in the crap can you say that?
Have you read the book?
Have you held the book in your hands and been amazed at the incredible high definition
photographs that in and of themselves tell the story of what happened that day?
No,of course you haven't but you are all to ready to denounce it.
Sounds exactly like what a troll would do. Or a very, very narrow minded person.
Either way doesn't sound like a lot of fun being you, does it?



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by Shadow Herder
To all new users or lurkers to this site reading this thread. These theories are out there and have never ever been embraced by the truth community and victims families. These theories have been proven years ago to come from the very people covering up 911. These theories of energy weapons, pods, holograms and video fakery were created to smear and muddy the waters of truth by injecting proven nonsensical theories in forums like this.

To add to the above statement: No, none of the research organizations within the 9/11 truth movement neither embrace, nor give any credence to the ridiculous theories mentioned above and in this thread. Research organizations within the 9/11 truth movement have even went a step further to distance themselves from the ridiculous, harmful "theories" by making public statements against those "theories", and banning the debate or discussion of them altogether.

Some of this information, along with the many critiques, can be found in my thread here.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by yyyyyyyyyy
reply to
I don't know, I am of the opinion all we need to do is two things,

1 Prove it was not planes alone that caused the collapse (plane impact plus fires)
2 Allow people the opportunity to accept this as a fact.

I am convinced a single plane crash would not produce the type of collapse witnessed on that day for each of the major towers but I have a more difficult time explaining consciously how this process would work, especially when confronted with the valid argument that I am not an expert.

So example, take a 110 story building with a somewhat unusual design structurem crash a large plane at 500 mph into it near the top, wait about an hour and watch the entire thing turn into a dust cloud of concrete which collapses at basically free-fall speed essentially into its own footprint. The OS narrative does not make sense when you look at it but I don't know enough to explain it to people in a convincing enough way.



Originally posted by yyyyyyyyyy
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread662308/pg1#pid10564016]post by marwei2
 
The framing of debate is so important and if 9/11 was an inside job it would make sense for the handlers to try to shape the debate of the opposition, playing both sides so to speak in a similar way to mainstream left-right ideas in politics, here on ATS people see through the lies (I hope)


Those are the bizarre aspects of this nonsense. A grade school Newtonian Physics problem not resolved by the nation that put men on the Moon in NINE YEARS.

#ing Depressing!!!

I would not have believed this was possible when I was in high school. Science has been turned into a JOKE.

How do you build a skyscraper without figuring out the distributions of steel and concrete? Doesn't the steel have to hold up the concrete and the live load?

So how is it they can't compute the amount of energy required to "collapse" each level of the WTC and isn't the energy requirement going to be affected by the amount of steel since it goes into the thickness of the columns?

Like this is TOO DIFFICULT for grade school kids to build. Curiously, no engineering school has come up with anything similar in NINE YEARS. And they want $100,000 for four years of "education".

www.youtube.com...

But after NINE YEARS how can they avoid looking stupid if they explain in a comprehensible manner why the official story has to be crap? The government, the media and educational institutions are all caught in this tar baby.

psik



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by psikeyhackr
How do you build a skyscraper without figuring out the distributions of steel and concrete? Doesn't the steel have to hold up the concrete and the live load?


Why are you so obsessed with the distribution of steel and concrete?



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by FDNY343

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
How do you build a skyscraper without figuring out the distributions of steel and concrete? Doesn't the steel have to hold up the concrete and the live load?


Why are you so obsessed with the distribution of steel and concrete?


A 500,000 ton structure must hold itself up against gravity. The WTC towers did that for 30 years. No one was worried about them falling down. But there are structures all over the world that are more than 300 meters tall so the PHYSICS of these structures must be no great mystery. How dumb do you think it would be to try and build a 110 story building and get to the 80th floor and say, "Uh oh, we didn't put enough steel in the basements."?

For the north tower to come down in less than 18 seconds the portion above the impact zone would have to have accelerated the stationary mass below and destroyed the supports that held that stationary mass which did the job for 30 years. That is what my physical model is about. Destroying the paper loop supports requires energy. Destroying the supports in the WTC which would have to require bending steel would also require energy. The only source is the kinetic energy of the falling mass. Therefore it would slow down and have LESS ENERGY for the next level which would be stronger since it was farther down. If a collapse started either it should have arrested like my model or the top should have fallen down the side. That is what should have happened to the south tower on the basis just airliner impact and fire. So something else had to be involved. I just don't make claims about what it was since I do not know.

The bottom line is that Grade School Physics dictates that what supposedly happened to the WTC is physically IMPOSSIBLE on the basis on the KNOWN ENERGY INPUTS.

But accurately analyzing the event requires ACCURATE data on the structure. So it is really interesting that lots of people are not demanding that. I drove into Chicago in 2008 to ask Richard Gage about that. He gave this LAME excuse about the NIST not releasing accurate blue prints. But the Laws of Physics work the same way all over the planet and have not changed since the Empire State Building was completed EIGHTY YEARS AGO. How much better have computers gotten since 2001 much less 1931? Shouldn't engineers at AE911Truth be able to come up with good estimates of steel and concrete distributions without the NIST? But I have searched their site. They don't discuss the subject.

Confusion is being maintained.

My model is as weak as I can make it and it does not have to support a LIVE LOAD or WITHSTAND THE WIND like any real skyscraper, but it doesn't come anywhere near a TOTAL COLLAPSE. So how is it that experts don't demand accurate data about the obvious after NINE YEARS? Our experts are pretending that a simple problem is difficult.

psik

PS - I don't understand why people talk about trivial bull# like "dancing Israelis". They can't change the Laws of Physics.
edit on 13-2-2011 by psikeyhackr because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 12:11 PM
link   
Susan Lindauer was a US intel asset who asserts she got wind of the impending 9/11 attacks in the summer of 2001, and was jailed under the Patriot Act to keep her quiet. In this detailed interview, Lindauer describes her bizarre 5-year ordeal.
peterbcollins.com... peace



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 12:56 PM
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Shouldn't engineers at AE911Truth be able to come up with good estimates of steel and concrete distributions without the NIST? But I have searched their site. They don't discuss the subject.


In their presentation "9/11 Blueprint for truth" there is some discussion of the energy levels required to pulverise the concrete, collapse at free fall speed, melt the steel and other metal for about 2 months and how the energy requirements do not add up if a part collapse was the cause for the destruction. I have not looked hard for the mathematics of all the calculations performed, but do agree it is a very important point. The basic calculations would be something many people can review and verify or identify errors in the calculations. The basic physics and maths is not that hard. Some of can get very lengthy and complex when taken to the nth degree, but the general principles of the main components is very standard stuff these days.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by JimFetzer
 


WOW Jim gave up on your video fakery thread were everyone can see you have not got a clue what you are taking about only to start this thread in which people will see you have not got a clue what you are taking about!

Whats more of a worry is apparently you are actually allowed to give lectures to students.

Funny how you avoided answering the physics questions posted on you video thread we will just have to ask you on this one then!



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by yyyyyyyyyy
I don't know, I am of the opinion all we need to do is two things,

1 Prove it was not planes alone that caused the collapse (plane impact plus fires)
2 Allow people the opportunity to accept this as a fact.


Agreed.

Or even more simply, illustrate the fact that the "planes and fires alone" theories were never proven to begin with, so no one can logically take the position that the burden of proof is on anyone else in the first place. The government never proved anything to begin with. That's the most important and relevant fact of this whole "movement" business imo.


All that's needed to prove some type of explosive was being set off, is to consult scores of witness testimonies. People heard, saw, were injured and even killed by explosions that were far removed from the impact sites. If we can differentiate them from any other explanations (and I believe we can; at least from the usual transformers, cans of Lysol or exploding fire extinguishers -- all bunk) that alone is a massive can of worms. And it's really already on the books. Just look at what Kevin Ryan has been publishing lately and you can begin to see how much information we already have to proceed with another criminal investigation.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
Agreed.

Or even more simply, illustrate the fact that the "planes and fires alone" theories were never proven to begin with, so no one can logically take the position that the burden of proof is on anyone else in the first place. The government never proved anything to begin with. That's the most important and relevant fact of this whole "movement" business imo.


That is the point right there.

The airliners were less than 200 tons. The buildings were more than TWO THOUSAND TIMES the mass of the planes! We are supposed to BELIEVE the buildings could be TOTALLY OBLITERATED in LESS THAN TWO HOURS.

Has this country been in The Twilight Zone for NINE YEARS?

And then someone asks why I am obsessed about the distributions of steel and concrete. Can people comprehend what it takes for skyscrapers to hold themselves up in 100 mph winds and survive storms that last for hours if not days?

This is the best movie I have seen about 9/11 though the first couple of minutes are kind of dumb. Who gives a damn about a Republican not sleeping. LOL

video.google.com...#

Conspiracies are irrelevant.

psik





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