The end of Americas open society?

Recently here we had a poster who threatened the life of Bush. Personally I didn't give a # about it, but another mod said that it was against the law and could be serious. Eventually we told the poster to be careful and that any repucussions were on his / her own head.

Intrigued at such draconian and Nazi styled laws I thought that people would be interested in this opinion piece on the direction of the "so called" open society....

Ever heard the "how to boil a frog" senario? You are living it now....

www.corpse.org...

extracts....

A man who shall remain anonymous sent Bush a letter saying that if he required a smallpox shot for the troops, he should get a shot himself. He was visited by a Secret Service agent. Another man, Richard Humphreys, happened to get into a harmless bar-room discussion with a truck driver. A bartender who overheard the conversation realized that Bush was scheduled to visit nearby Sioux Falls the next day, and he told police that Humphreys--who was actually making a joke with a Biblical reference--had talked about a "burning Bush" and the possibility of someone pouring a flammable liquid on Bush and lighting it. Humphreys was arrested for threatening the president.

"I said God might speak to the world through a burning Bush," he testified during his trial. "I had said that before and I thought it was funny."

Nevertheless, he was found guilty and sentenced to more than 3 years in prison. He decided to appeal, on the basis that his comment was a prophecy, protected under his right to freedom of speech.

"A few days ago, a public official called me over to his car to discuss his displeasure with the war in Iraq and the way the Bush administration is handling the nation's economy. This well-respected man would talk only from his vehicle, saying he was fearful of criticizing the president or his policies in public. Before our conversation ended, the man told me of other public officials who also are fearful of speaking out. 'You have to be careful what you say in public these days,' he added...."

"Almost daily, someone informs me that he is scared of openly expressing his views. Even those who do dare to speak out do so in hushed tones, fearful of what ears might overhear. In the politically charged atmosphere that exists in America today, having the wrong person hear criticism of the government can lead to trouble. That became evident recently when an entertainer [a singer] who innocently joked that President Bush had 'chicken legs' was banned from performing further at Borders Books and Music in Fredericksburg."

[edit on 14-7-2004 by Netchicken]

Pretty damn scary. America was built by men who had been censored and persecuted, and eventually asked to leave their home country for their views and opinions. It's a very sad day for America if anyone feels the same way they did before they gave birth to a dream in the New World.

You put the frog in a pot of room temp water with the frog in, heat the water slowly, HE will never SEE it COMING..........

[edit on 14-7-2004 by SpittinCobra]

Its a pity I don't have the time to research it more, but there have been examples posted here of people being investigated for saying the most ordinary things.

Welcome to the police state, and like all good police states its populated by informers and backstabbers, in the guise of being patriotic.

Was it like this in the 50's at the height of the Anti Communist paranoia?

Bring them on baby...Unless you make a general threat, there is nothing they can do about it. The day we can not speak out against our government is the day I'll be moving to somewhere other than here cause I can't think of someplace right now.

...but they can and they do bobbafet, bluster and bravado are no match for a 3 year prison sentance for making a pun based on Bush's name....

I don't even need to read the extracts to know you are right on track. I know how to boil a forg - start them off in room temp water and slowly bring up the heat. The foolish little amphibs wont ever jump out no matter how hot it gets because they are slowly aclimated to the rising temps - before you know it we have froggie stew. And right now we are about to become American stew. The government and who knows who from elsewhere in the world has been slowly boiling us and most of us don't seem to notice or even care. We are turning into a cauldron of fogs - it's time to take the leap man! The Patriot Act, random searching of sivilians on Boston subways, cameras at every stop light and toll booth, what more do we need? We are about to boil and everyone justifies every step as "necessary precautions for our national protection" and "if it doesn't affect me personally who cares"! Well , I care - and I'm about to boil over! Call me an extremeist - call me parinoid - but we are freely giving up our civil rights and have bastartized our constitution. Why don't you care? Pleople have killed and died to preserve the so-called freedome you enjoy today - are you willing to do the same? Because it will come to that - I guarantee it!

Thats like taken away free speech. Why cant we say "I wish Bush was dead?!?!" We have free speach dont we? We're just loosing our rights day by day!

Well, hopefully once enough crap goes down, we wake up and take back our country. I still have a little bit of faith in my fellow Americans.....

I found this story orginally for a speech I gave last semester. In it, some anti-war protestors in Des Moines, Iowa were subpoenaed for protesting, and other charges they claimed had never happened. Unfortunately, it is now a part of the New York Times.com archives, and it must be paid for to view, but luckily I saved the entire article on my computer for the speech. I know excessive quoting is frowned upon, and I do apologize, but it is relevant to this discussion, and so I will post it.

DES MOINES, Feb. 9 � To hear the antiwar protesters describe it, their forum at a local university last fall was like so many others they had held over the years. They talked about the nonviolent philosophies of Mahatma Gandhi and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., they said, and how best to convey their feelings about Iraq into acts of civil disobedience.

But last week, subpoenas began arriving seeking details about the forum's sponsor � its leadership list, its annual reports, its office location � and the event itself. On Monday, lawyers for the sponsor, the Drake University chapter of the National Lawyers Guild, went to court in an effort to block the federal prosecutors' demands.

Those who attended the forum, at least four of whom said they had received subpoenas to appear before a federal grand jury on Tuesday, said that they did not know what to make of the inquiry and that they feared it was intended to quash protest.

Late on Monday, prosecutors in the United States attorney's office for the southern district of Iowa took the unusual step of issuing a confirmation of the investigation, stressing that its scope was limited to learning more about one person who had tried to scale a security fence at an Iowa National Guard base in a protest a day after the forum.

"The United States attorney's office does not prosecute persons peacefully and lawfully engaged in rallies which are conducted under the protection of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States," a written statement issued by the prosecutor here, Stephen Patrick O'Meara, said.

Prosecutors also delayed the grand jury appearances by a month, a move local civil liberties officials interpreted as a sign that the government might be backing away from the investigation.

"I'd say the prosecutors are recognizing the groundswell of reaction that has happened in the face of this extraordinary thing they've done," said R. Ben Stone, executive director of the Iowa Civil Liberties Union.

Still, the protesters, their lawyers and some national civil liberties advocates described the investigation into the attendance rolls and leadership lists of the lawyers' group as highly unusual in recent years. Some said it could send a chilling message far beyond Iowa, leaving those who consider voicing disapproval of the administration's policy in Iraq, or anywhere else, wondering whether they too might receive added scrutiny.

"I've heard of such a thing, but not since the 1950's, the McCarthy era," said David D. Cole, a Georgetown law professor. "It sends a very troubling message about government officials' attitudes toward basic liberties."

Anthony Romero, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said he feared news of the subpoenas � which was spreading rapidly via e-mail on Monday among activist organizations � might discourage people from showing up to protests, attending meetings at universities or even checking out library books.

"People will have to be asking themselves: will this be subject to government scrutiny?" Mr. Romero said.

Brian Terrell, the executive director of the Catholic Peace Ministry here, received a grand jury subpoena last week, he said. Mr. Terrell said he had helped conduct "nonviolence training" at the Nov. 15 forum on the Drake campus, which was titled "Stop the Occupation! Bring the Iowa Guard Home!" and attended by 21 people.

Mr. Terrell, 47, said he had been involved in and sometimes arrested for protests of United States actions related to Honduras; Vieques, Puerto Rico; and elsewhere over many years. He said he offered advice for people who chose to be arrested about how best to carry out their protests, like how to deal with police, how to deal with hecklers and how to react to jail.

At the forum, Mr. Terrell said, at least one local television station filmed the events, which were open to the public. Organizers had also mailed a leaflet about the events to a sergeant in the Des Moines police in case he wanted to come.

Everything we did was completely in the open," Mr. Terrell said. "We've been doing this sort of thing a long time. The police know the routine. We know them. Usually things here in Iowa are very friendly."

The day after the forum, some in the group traveled to an Iowa National Guard base in Johnston, north of Des Moines, where they staged a demonstration, which Mr. Terrell described as routine. A dozen people were arrested there, mainly on state charges of trespass. At least one woman was also charged with assault. Mr. Terrell said he did not know of anyone trying to scale the fence at the base, but the federal authorities say someone did.

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Mr. O'Meara, the prosecutor, said in his statement, "The narrow purpose and scope of that inquiry has been narrowed to determine whether there were any violations of federal law, or prior agreements to violate federal law, regarding unlawful entry onto military property � and specifically to include whether there were any violations as a result of an alleged attempt to enter within the fenced, secure perimeter at Camp Dodge."

Officials at Drake University, a private institution of 5,100 students, declined to comment on Monday. Lisa Lacher, a spokeswoman for the school, said the court had made Drake, which received a broad subpoena in the case, subject "to a nondisclosure order" about the matter. "I'm afraid then that there's not much we can say," Ms. Lacher said.

The school's subpoena called for detailed information on the lawyers guild and its members, including the names of those who are officers, and guild meeting agendas and annual reports since 2002.

The subpoena also focused on the Nov. 15 antiwar forum, asking for "all requests for use of a room, all documents indicating the purpose and intended participants in the meeting, and all documents or recordings which would identify persons that actually attended the meeting."

Wendy Vasquez, 52, a clerical worker in Des Moines, also received a subpoena last week. Ms. Vasquez was one of those arrested outside the National Guard base the day after the forum at Drake. She said that in the past, she had been arrested for protesting the war in El Salvador and advocating for homeless people.

But this investigation, she said, appeared to be different.

"It was just another very mellow Iowa protest, so it's hard to know what this is all about," Ms. Vasquez said. "I guess it's meant to terrify the peace movement. I don't see what else they could be doing."

The suit was finally dropped, but the fact that it was brought at all is still very scary to me. These are my rights, without question, and without interference.

This is very interesting, I am one of those that will talk about bush anywhere and with no regrets, I guess I will better start watching my back from now on, and no wonder my husband always get nervous when speaking to me in the phone from his work, whenever I start bashing bush

Why wasn't Jesse Helms investigated when he said that Clinton "would need a bodyguard" should he choose to visit North Carolina? The neocons really do not make a good case for themselves when they talk of "freedom". It's a selective freedom they want. As long as you say what they agree with.

Actually - the more I think about it the more I'm beliveing America was never really a "free" society. Just think about the Salme witch trials, slavery, the historical lack of womens rights, the established federa/christian holidays, now the campaign to remove christianity from everything government. At what point in American history can Americans say that they were truely free to choose whatever they will? When has it been ok to just be you? When was it ok to be handicapped, gay, christian, pagan, leader, speaker, revolutionary, whatever you are? If I were really free to be what I will and say what I will we wouldn't be screening this website for such simple and useless words as A$$, B*T@H or D!C%H@A)! Afterall, they are just words right? And I am free to say whatever I want right?

With Bush's push for the marriage amendments you should of seen some of the stuff the gay community was saying about him, you name a way to go and they've said it about him *1,000,000. I think it is messed up that we have to fear what we say because the government can hold us responsible especially with the Patriot Act seemingly getting stronger. I realize that with freedoms we have responsiblities to up hold and anyting said against the our government can be interpretted as a terror threat but the way the Patriot Act or whatever it is is interpretted anyone accused of being a terrorist risks loosing all rights including the right to a trial of peers which is just messed.

Im just ranting so please anyone correct my ignorance so I can get a better picture of what is going on.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Welcome to the police state, and like all good police states its populated by informers and backstabbers, in the guise of being patriotic.

Was it like this in the 50's at the height of the Anti Communist paranoia?

It's been like this all along. We tend to notice things like this more when people we don't care for are in power.

I found this recent threat against former President Clinton's wife. The guy was in prison and bored, he told his shrink that he'd like to spice up his life by killing Hillary:

Edward Falvey, 51, pleaded guilty last week to a charge of threatening to kill an immediate family member of a former president, a federal crime that carries a penalty of up to five years in prison and a $US250,000 ($330,000) fine.

How an imprisoned bank robber could possibly carry out such a threat seems a little odd to me. But like I said, it all has to do with your perceptions of the man who the threat or "joke" is be leveled at to begin with.

Bored Inmate

Rant On Jrod! You are soo right as far as I'm concerened. The patiriot act as basically created a dicatorship in America and we all stand to be victims of it!

Originally posted by Netchicken
Recently here we had a poster who threatened the life of Bush.

A political science professor at a noted university explained it to me (prior to 9/11) something like this:

As a politician (none in particular) has put himself in the public eye, it my understanding that it is protected freedom of speech to discuss the merits of the demise of the politician, so long as one does not recommend the demise of the politician.

The line is very fine. For myself I am not willing to get anywhere near that tightrope, just like I will not even whisper the word "bomb" to my mother at an airport.
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hey you do have the right to say just about anything, and the FBI has the right to investigate any possible threat, and just what the hell is wrong with that? if you say "i hate bush" then there's nothing wrong with that and i doubt anyone is being investigated for that. if you say "i wish bush was dead" then you're, at the very least, approaching the line of what you shouldn't say, simply for reasons of maner. you can not, and should not, threaten any public official, it's just stupid. i personally don't know a single person that's afraid to speak their mind. and concerning those that do have that fear, then they probably know they're saying something they shouldn't. i'm very curious to know if anyone actually knows someone who has personally been effected by the pariot act..

Originally posted by df1
The line is very fine. For myself I am not willing to get anywhere near that tightrope, just like I will not even whisper the word "bomb" to my mother at an airport.
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But please feel free to broadcast it over the internet for the entire world to read!

I can tell you a true pre-9/11 story.

I am a divorced, single, white woman, with no criminal history. Not so much as a parking ticket. I do not associate with people who would bring me to the attention of anyone.

In 1998, I was taking a college course on Criminology, and I choose to do my paper on "Subversive Groups".

(Since my Father was a Police Sargent, during the Nazi March in the Prodominantly Jewish Suburb of Chicago, Skokie, during the court battle, the involvement of the ACLU (defending the Nazi's), etc....I thought this would be a perfect choice for me.).

So, here on the internet, I went to web sites for groups like Michael Butler's Group (The Aryan Nation), and a few others, and downloaded copies of PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION AND THE TURNER DIARIES

Now, remember, at the time, I am a single Mom, with two teenaged girls, and a small son.

Can you believe I got a visit from some of the Powers that Be?????!????

Good Lord, I come from a Law Enforcement Family!! (There are several members of my Family that are Police Officers).

They contacted my INSTRUCTOR, made sure that was a real assignment, AND made sure I actually turned it in, (in a follow-up phone call).

I was mortified!

BTW-on a side note, during that time I was a Nurse, had passed a F.B.I. criminal background check, and was even Bonded.

True story guys......

I thought it could never, happen here