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GOP set for Civil War

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posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 01:30 AM
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I will try and make this as short and brief yet explanatory as possible. From my understanding of politics, alongside my understanding of American political history, I truly believe we are on the verge of a GOP civil war.

No this is not some liberal attacking the Republican Party and hoping for its downfall, rather I am on one of the sides in question.

We are coming up to the critical point in just one month where the Republican Party could be virtually torn apart because of one legislative decision. There are two sides currently fighting over how to vote on this issue. One side is the Establishment GOP who arguing that not raising the debt ceiling would be catastrophic for America and would bankrupt us or cause serious economic damage not only here but around the world. The other side is the Tea Party GOP who arguing that raising the debt ceiling would create an atmosphere where getting our fiscal house in order would be impossible and we could use this event to force drastic cuts in our deficit.

Now even John Boehner has taken the side of Mitch McConnell and the establishment in saying we cannot raise the debt ceiling. 1 But this opinion is not shared with every Republican in the House and Senate as Sen. Mike Lee of Utah has promised to filibuster any raise in the debt ceiling. 2

The leaders of the Republican Party have virtually all agreed that not raising the debt ceiling or holding it hostage is simply unacceptable at the same time the Tea Party has virtually all agreed that raising the debt ceiling or not holding it hostage is simply unacceptable. 3 Both sides are set for a major showdown, one that if not handle correctly, could lead to the GOP fighting each other for control of the party instead of just cooperating.

So is this really just all about the debt ceiling? Or is this rift between the Tea Partiers and the Establishment so powerful that it will simply lead to one side trying to run the other side out of the party altogether? This was not the first time that such a rift had occurred as it happened back in 1964 with the nomination of Conservative Barry Goldwater over Establishment Nelson Rockefeller for GOP nomination. Even though in the Conservative wing did not take over the party until 16 years later it was still enough to drastically change the entire party ideology.

By 1980 the Republican Party began to lose its support in the Northeast and Great Lakes but at the same time took the Southeast on the federal level away from the Democrats, this however started under Nixon with his ‘Southern Strategy’.

And once again 1964 was not the only time the GOP had an internal war as it also occurred, although subtly, at the end of the Roosevelt administration in the 1950’s. This is what drove Joe McCarthy to become leader of the Conservative wing of the party then when it was in the minority.

The largest shift in the Republican Party however occurred during the ‘Progressive Era’ when the party was divided between Progressives like Pres. Theodore Roosevelt and Sen. Robert M. LaFollette, Sr. and Conservatives like Pres. Calvin Coolidge and Pres. William Howard Taft. The party at the time was so deeply divided that the Progressives left and formed their own third party and in 1912 came in second place in the Presidential election.

However this divide did not end in 1912 as even in 1924 Sen. LaFollette ran for President the Progressive Party candidate garnering 16.6% of the popular vote. 4 Nonetheless the Conservatives had won the party in 1920 with the election of Pres. Warren G. Harding and the election of Pres. Calvin Coolidge in 1924 finally the election of Pres. Herbert Hoover in 1928.

These three Presidents along with the ideology of the Republican Party and Southern Democrats came to be known during the inter-war as the ‘Old Right’. They were the staunch defenders of limited government, non-interventionism, anti-unionism, pro-business, agrarian, and classical liberalism which had dominated American politics until 1904.

So what are we seeing now? It is with my understanding of American political history that we are seeing the confrontation of the ‘New Right’ of Richard Nixon, George W. Bush, and John McCain clashing with the ‘Old Right’ of Calvin Coolidge, Robert Taft, and Al Smith. Allow me to elaborate.

Old Right



The views within the Old Right are rather diverse but strongly unified, having their own particular reasons of why they belonged within the Old Right.

• Intellectual Individualists and Libertarians
• Liassez-faire Liberals
• Pro-Business Republicans
• Anti-Union Republicans
• Southern Conservative Democrats
• Pro-Business Democrats
• Southern Agrarians

Now that you know the views within the Old Right we should take a look at why they were able to unify together and form one ideology. It was relatively simple as they had several key ideals that made them distinct.

• Protectionist import policies
• Non-interventionist foreign policy
• Opposition to personal taxation
• Opposition to League of Nations
• Support for businesses
• Support for domestic manufacturing
• Protection of critical domestic industries
• Opposition to unions, especially public employee unions
• Strong Constitutionalists
• Belief in traditional values
• Belief in natural rights over civil rights
• Opposition to deficits and debt
• Opposition to the Federal Reserve system
• Opposition to all New Deal policies

Overall those ideals sum up the Conservative Republicans and Democrats of the inter-war period from 1919-1940. This is also considered the “high tide” of American Conservatism in 1924 as both the Republican and Democrat ran on a platform of limited government.

Do you see the striking similarities between the ideals of the Old Right and the ideals of the Tea Party Republicans? They are strikingly similar as they should be since Ron Paul is basically the father of the Tea Party Movement and Ron Paul is the modern embodiment of the Old Right ideology which today are known as Paleoconservatism and Paleolibertarianism.

Old Right

I see the current leaders/figureheads of the revival of the Old Right being Sen. Rand Paul, Sen. Jim DeMint, Sen. Mike Lee, Sen. Pat Toomey, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, Congressman Ron Paul, and Gov. Bob McDonnell, along with the platform of the Tea Party.

The debt ceiling vote is simply the turning point, the deciding time for if the GOP establishment votes as they are promising to do then we will see the Tea Party shockwave hit them as well. The ripple effect will launch a full attack against the entire GOP establishment. Launching it into a full scale battle between such Senators as Rand Paul and Mitch McConnell for who will control the Republican Party.

Just wait until 2012 when it will really heat up, at that time we will see the full division revealed. As the establishment will back people such as Mitt Romney, Mitch Daniels, or Newt Gingrich while the Tea Party will back people such as Ron Paul or Jim DeMint.

We must watch closely as the GOP is at a very important time in its history.
edit on 2/2/2011 by Misoir because: Sarah Palin shouldn't be considered Old Right




posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 01:49 AM
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Sarah Palin belongs with this Old Right as much as Bush Sr and Jr do.

They're neoconservatives, read; fascists.

Anyone who isn't a presumptive idiot knows I'm not socialist/democrat, but god damn I have never heard a sentence come out of this woman's mouth that wasn't equivalent to watching an intellectual train wreck. She's a script reader, and either their script writer sucks, or is severely limited due to the speaker reading the script being Sarah Palin.

If you haven't payed attention, the GOP and Fox News have wrapped their tentacles around the tea party. Ron Paul isn't a tea party figurehead, the Ron Paul revolution existed well before the tea party did.

But you are right, this is an interesting time to be watching the GOP specifically due to these folks that claim/speak as if they come from the "old right". It's a good social experiment. They are the "hope and change" of conservative America, and if they turn out to be as corrupt and illegitimate as Obama and the dems have turned out to be....well who the # am I kidding a majority of people would still eat it up because we're so apathetic/stupid to care otherwise.

If Obama is any sign, while a lot of people abandoned him since his campaign he still has a lot of support, and you know damn well it won't be any different when the people saying nice things don't reflect their words with action that implements said words into reality.

I hope I'm proven wrong but I know I won't be.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 01:54 AM
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IMO
Sister Terror Sarah Palin should have
stayed in Alaska hunting Moose.

All this bickering is just a distraction.
The US Empire is falling and they're
just positioning themselves not to
take the blame for the fall.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:14 AM
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War leads to violence.

Our false assumption is that violence solves problems. It doesn't. It is the problem.

Government doesn't exist, it's an illusion. It's an idea.

What will you revolt against? The fake idea that you "gave your rights to" and you want to "take those rights back?"
That is insanity.

We are individual human beings. We never lost any rights at any time. They may be trampled by individual human beings who believe in false ideals like Government.

That's the only way to stop Government. Stop believing in it.
It doesn't exist anyways. Only deluded people exist.

It's so easy you don't even have to move a finger.

If we all stopped believing in these fake ideas, we wouldn't have any decent reasons to mistreat each other anymore.

Everything would shift instantly to a new paradigm.
One based on Progress rather than Congress?



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:28 AM
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they could always drop those precious tax cuts, and add an increase instead....
maybe then, they wouldn't need to increase the debt?

whenever I hear them saying if we don't raise it, we are risking a default...
well, I tend to interpret that as them saying, we need to borrow the money to meet our payment obligations....
so, which would you prefer?? increase taxes, borrow the money, or well, just not pay our bills and have the IMF breathing down our necks?

still say this was a planned financial collapse, the republican party wanted the social security, and other "entitlements" gone so bad, that they crashed the whole danged system, just so they could say that we don't have a choice now .

here's a suggestion.....
start prosecuting for the many crimes that are involved in the housing/mortgages/securities bust, and start recouping some of the billlions that were lost because of the crimes! but na....they'd rather default, than to step on their criminal buddies toes and set things right.

I expect the tea partiers to break away from the republican party, and become something akin to a christian conservative party, although they won't call themselves that.

I'm just glad that my son is stationed state side now and I don't have to worry about them deciding they ain't got the money to bring him, and the other service members home from the four corners of the earth! Because, well, ya know, that newest bridge to nowhere, or whatever the newest pork spending is, well, that's far more important than those people in uniform after all!

This country needs to get it's priorities straight! And start telling the truth!!!



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:32 AM
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That was a bunch of Political Rhetoric Mumbo Jumbo if I ever heard it! and that's putting it mildly and nicely if I do say so myself...

What about the HUMAN RIGHT? I represent the majority which is just your average everyday working class citizen. We don't like Politics because Politics is what makes our lives more complicated, and our paychecks sucked dry come payday. The fact that we put educated citizens into political positions to speak for us is a joke. In fact they end up speaking for their own pockets and their own financial gain. Oh of course a few Parks are made and Schools end up being built, but just chump change. Americans are tired of their hard earned money getting wasted and not used properly. They are not there to solve problems they want to put a band aide on them and send them back out there only to come back with infections(Eg Oil & Gas Industry to name a few). I am not for any of the political parties. I am for AMERICA and what I and every other American seem to believe we stand for STILL. FREEDOM! I want mine back by the way.....we all do! If there is any kind of Civil War to take place I can only hope we take back those rights that we once fought for in the beginning. Only this time we don't hand them back over to ANYONE.

Can I get a HERE, HERE If you feel the same way my fellow Americans?????



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:34 AM
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Misoir, sometimes I think you should be teaching history.

Sometimes I think you should be also taking lessons. One thing is for certain, the vote on the debt ceiling will separate the buck from the buckwheat. ( the saying is a LITTLE different from that-LOL)

The Tea Party has one main tenet, limited government. When folks like the TPexpress attempt to subvert this, they will be separated from the main component. Since the GOP was the benefactor of the TPM, they will be the first to be held accountable.

Obama has a very weird approval rating. He has a 50% rating right now, but the TPM has a 72% rating right now.

Hmmm, very weird demographic. Things do not appear to be what they seem, IMO.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:11 AM
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Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower


Misoir, sometimes I think you should be teaching history.

Sometimes I think you should be also taking lessons.





Obama has a very weird approval rating. He has a 50% rating right now, but the TPM has a 72% rating right now.

Hmmm, very weird demographic. Things do not appear to be what they seem, IMO


Were did you get this 72% approval rating for the Tea Party? I would like to see the link.

According to Gallup your right about Obama's approval rating, but according to Gallup the Tea Party has a 39% favorable and a 42% unfavorable opinion.

Americans believe GOP should consider Tea Party Ideas....

Oh and what was Reagan's rule about Republicans attacking other Republicans???



edit on 2-2-2011 by LDragonFire because: whooops

edit on 2-2-2011 by LDragonFire because: added a thought



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 04:44 AM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 


Yeah, I seen that poll. I am thinking of another.

I will see if I can find it. See, you can ask a question in a certain way and get your poll. Will be back when I find the poll.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 10:38 AM
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You have put successfully into words something I've seen coming for the last several years.
Not only that but you have given it the historical context showing how things got to where they are.
This should be in New Republic magazine but I am personally gratified that you have chosen ATS to share it with.
Your writing talents have really matured.
Great analysis as well.

Excellent work Mis!



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 10:55 AM
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I agree with Saltheart and AskTheAnimals! I hope you're considering history, political science, or both. You really have an excellent grasp of this stuff. (Another) GREAT post!



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


Excellent thread! Thank you. Of course, I'm with the side that believes that having the GOP raise the debt ceiling would be akin to, "Same as the old boss. . . " and only give credibility to those that say that there is no difference between left and right.

To rein in government spending in order to stay under the debt ceiling is akin to asking a junky to budget his/her heroin. Those in DC, lft/right are addicted to spending. Those that receive benefits from being on the government dole are addicted to those self-same dollars.

In my humble opinion, we all need to go cold turkey.
(and as I say this, I'm smoking a cigarette and having a drink)




posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 



That's the only way to stop Government. Stop believing in it.
It doesn't exist anyways. Only deluded people exist.

It's so easy you don't even have to move a finger.

If we all stopped believing in these fake ideas, we wouldn't have any decent reasons to mistreat each other anymore.


You said it all right here,

Now the question is how do we unbrainwash the world.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


Excellent analysis Misoir!

I do believe you are spot on that there will be a coming divide between two inter-factions within the GOP. If the debt ceiling issue doesn't cause the crack, then other policies that republicans enjoy taking on (such as abortion) will. Stick to issue concerning the governing and administration of government and you most likely will enjoy a long tenure in the seats you currently hold.

Stray and allow the Christian-Right to again dictate your policies and governance and you will find yourself in the minority again.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
they could always drop those precious tax cuts, and add an increase instead....
maybe then, they wouldn't need to increase the debt?

This country needs to get it's priorities straight! And start telling the truth!!!


OK, let me start with this truth - for people that apparently skipped or flunked Econ 101.

The people dems want to raise taxes on are not the "rich" as those also promoting class warfare like to repeat ad nauseum. The people making over $250,000 a year that are being targeted (can I still say that?
) for tax increases are the very same small to medium sized business owners that employ most Americans.

Try to now understand this simple equation:

If you take away money from these businesses by raising their taxes, they have to respond by raising their prices and/or cutting their expenses such as wages paid to employees.


And you really want to do this during a period of already high unemployment???



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 12:26 PM
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IMHO- things have decayed too far for a fix.
Sometimes its best to tear down a rotten building than try to make it stand.
The factions of the american people are divided too deeply for a peaceful solution.
Not only will those in power resist any meaningful changes, they will fight tooth and nail to keep the disfunctional model running.
I see at least a decade of turmoil ahead of the country maybe even a complete collapse and rebuild of an altered political system.Which would be obviously engineered by the PTB.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by centurion1211
 


okay, now for the alternatives, since you don't like the tax idea...
we can just keep borrowing, and they can just keep spending, and well, payiing what they have to on the debt we already owe...but then, well.....if what they are saying is true, that not raising the debt limit will cause a default, well.....I don't think we can carry on this way much longer...
we can not try to bring in more income, and not raise taxes, and well, just default...ya know, like yous want to do with the debt that is owed to the social security trust fund...but well, when you start doing that to other countries, it usually leads to war!!!
or we can cut the govt to bare bones, but got to warn ya, that is gonna lead to some nasty repercussions also.
I mean think about it, all this money that is being handed out to our gov't to people, what are the people doing with it??? some of it is being used supposedly to help create and keep jobs...some is being used to help people pay for their rent, their medical care, their food, ect. some is being used to help kids get through school...some are helping the elderly make ends meet...
okay, take all that money away....ummm......I can see a decrease in college enrollment, less kids in college, less need for teachers and the like in the colleges, less need for textbooks, less employees in the printing companies that make the textbooks....less money for rents,less people willing to rent apts at the price they are, more vacancy, and since some of those who own these rentals also owe a mortgage on them, well......more foreclosures. less ,money for healthcare, less patients in the doctor's office, less people buying drugs, less employees in the healthcare field needed, more unemployment!!!
and one and one....
our economy has gotten addicted to the money that the gov't has been throwing all over the place, and it really doesn't matter what they do at this point, because, well, the end game is gonna be the same...
what is the fairest way in my opinion??
figure out what we need to get by on, what the shortfall is, raise the taxes a little, cut the danged budget, equally across the board!! and try to get the thing somewhat balanced!!!
but, I bet neither the republicans or the dems would go for that one...since they both have their own little pet programs that they would never, ever, think of cutting, oh, no they are hands off!!!
so, well, ya, it's gonna be the lower upper class the the middle class, upper lower class that ends up paying out the arse for it all!!!



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:13 PM
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The Republicans will raise the debt ceiling because they have to...they have no choice.

What you are seeing now is political posturing for the benefit for their supporters...it's a fake fight.


Of course..they could decide to not raise the debt ceiling and watch as the government defaults on many accounts. Then they would be forced to make many cuts to spending that will not be popular with the American public (Social Security, Medicare, Public Education, Unemployment benefits, etc.). Not to mention the panic in the US and World financial markets. This will of course paint them as the party that killed many services and plunged the US into a huge depression....and they would lose hard in the next election.

They will not take that risk...so instead they put on a staged fake fight within their party...and then when it comes down to the line they will explain that even though they don't want to...they are being forced to raise the debt ceiling.

Staged political fights...that is the theme of the Republican controlled congress. It is the EXACT same thing they are wasting time with the "repeal" of the Health Care Reform bill. They know their actions mean nothing...but they waste time and money on it anyway to put on a show for their supporters.


And it seems...like a lot of people are falling for the staged political fights.
edit on 2-2-2011 by MindSpin because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:19 PM
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This is nothing new. The Conservatives have split their votes many times before, the most notable being the 1992 elections when Bush Sr got 37.45% & Ross Perot got 18.91%, and Clinton squeezed through the side door with a mere 43.01%. The same thing occurred again in 96 with Perot only this time he split votes with Dole.




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