I'd LOVE to believe in a deity...but....

the problem is that I cannot do so in an intellectually honest manner.

I'm here to clear up a misconception. I am an agnostic atheist (if you want to contradict this description, there are half a dozen other threads to do that in). I consider my position the skeptical position, sticking to the null hypothesis until there is evidence of any deity that is sufficient to believe in it.

The problem is that many on this forum who are religious seem to think that we want to be atheists because we don't want to believe in their particular religion. I say their particular religion because I've never seen anyone claim that I'm not a member of an opposing religion for that same reason.

Now...I don't care. Honestly, I could care less because I just care about being honest. If there were evidence of a deity I would gladly move towards that idea. Why? Because it would be pretty awesome for there to be a supernatural being taking care of everything that you got to meet after you died if you were on your best behavior during your life. It would be positively brilliant...but I don't see any reason to believe in that sort of thing.

Well, it wouldn't be entirely brilliant and it would raise some philosophical issues...but that's something for another thread. If there were evidence of this sort of being I would jump on the idea.

Bottom line: I have no objection to the belief in any deity so long as it actually has evidence to support it, but I've yet to meet a religious belief that has the sort of necessary evidence.

Hope that sorted things out for people.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Please prove to me scientifically that you would love to believe in god.
I know you are saying you do, but what reason is there to accept this as fact?

Perhaps you only imagined you wanted to believe in god.
Perhaps circumstances deluded you, and left you mistakenly believing you wished to believe.
Perhaps you have a reason to fabricate such a contention.

At best, you are only reporting a subjective, personal experience, and we all know it's not rational to accept a person's subjective, personal experience as fact.

I'm sorry, but until you can prove your assertion scientifically I have no choice but to respectfully and open-mindedly dismiss your statement out of hand.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Interesting words. I am a Christian; but, I was an agnostic for a decade and was investigating. I cannot say that I wanted to believe there was a God while I was an agnostic, I think I just wanted to investigate the different beliefs and determine for myself if any made sense. I think my question for you is specifically what could ever be sufficient "proof" for you. To me proof is an elusive concept. If you heard God speak to you would it be sufficient proof or would you fear for your sanity?

In the end, in my opinion, everything we believe is partly taken on faith and partly by what we consider proof. The only thing that is never proof is the agreement of society. Personally I think God should only be proven by our own investigation and a willingness to accept proof. Remember, we live in a time when scientists believe there are parallel universes with no proof of them whatsoever and they admit that.

The second part of the equation, for me, is that we would need to be ready to deal with God or any spirits before we could know them without being harmed. If we chase the goodies of this world then we are defined by our wants rather than our beliefs and I don't think that is sufficient preparation for meeting a deity. I am not accusing you of being that way more of a general comment. The history of the occult and the bible do not support us fairing very well against spirits or God.

I think most people believe that if there were a God then he would talk to us all and be around us all the time, sort of like our personal genii granting us wishes. If there is a God, and I believe there is, I would expect just the opposite. I view a relationship with God like I view a relationship with anyone else, we have to earn others trust first and then we have to be compatible. By the way, I don't believe we have to be good to meet him, that is not what the bible says and none in the bible that met him were not "good". I think it has more to do with willing, self defined and loving of others. Just my two cents. Here is the best part, when we die we will know so it does come with an answer built in. Be well.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


You are intitiled to your view on what you may or may not believe in but keep others who don't share your view out of your rant; at least you could show some respect towards your fellow man regardless of what religion he/she is.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


So you know it all ! Got it all figured out huh! You can explain with out a doubt how your rusty butt got here ? Good if you can believe what science has put out with all of those missing links and holes in their theory . Just like old Sagan , throw a couple of billion years into the equation . Then no one would be old enough to challenge you . Sure maybe in a couple of billion years an old Desoto will turn into a bright shinny Rolls Royce . You will believe one day , but for now you simply chose not to believe .

I just want to say i have always thought the idea of a god completely ludacrous and as we evolve technologically and discover the true origins of the universe this idea will surely die out,especially in first world countries!

I was raised Christian, but I'm currently in a phase of agnostic; on the brink of returning. Maybe because I'm angry with the logic that billions of humans should be sentenced to suffer eternally simply because the first 2 disobeyed. That hardly seems like something a just and loving God would do. Saying He's loving but also wrathful is well..wrathful would be an extreme understatement. However, I still believe in God; although perhaps not the Biblical one right now. I don't see ANY intellectual flaw with believing in a supreme being who created us. We barely know anything about the universe. But we speculate about black holes, quantum time travel, entanglement, n dimensions, infinite universes....etc etc. How can you talk about all these things in the name of science, and then declare a supreme being as illogical? That is EXTREMELY naive.

Originally posted by lektrofellon
I just want to say i have always thought the idea of a god completely ludacrous and as we evolve technologically and discover the true origins of the universe this idea will surely die out,especially in first world countries!

I don't think so. On the contrary, as we evolve technologically and spiritually/culturally, we will begin to co-relate science with the "supernatural". It's already beginning to happen. I'm not saying you have to believe in the Judaeo-Christian God, Allah, or any specific one. But to make a general statement that you find the notion of any supreme creator as "ludacris", is a very small-minded statement. Please give me your sound logic on why you think a idea of a God is ludacris; I bet you won't be able to.

I was raised christian in a southern baptist church. For a long time after I was "saved" I felt the urge to become a pastor, that's what I felt god had comissioned me to be. I was upset that people were going to hell, and it didn't seem to bother them. I tried to learn as much about god as was possible, in order to teach, and it seemed like the only person that it ever really mattered to was me. How much did you have to pray and fast and believe to have a relationship with god? It never happened. We switched churches, thinking a different denomination might have the answers - but all we saw were people blindly following dogmatic beliefs, and each church had it's own particular "flavor". Baptists, Methodist, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Catholics, Jews - all claiming to have the right beliefs yet none having the proofs to show it.
It makes me mad - that I wasted so many years following a belief that left me with nothing. I denied my family certain things, I denied myself some really good job opportunities. God got my money - and left me with nothing but a horrible sense that I was beyond redemption. I was depressed - and almost hopelessly addicted to alcohol. I couldn't shake it. Prayers didn't work. Nothing worked. I decided that if god wanted anything to do with me, he would let me know.
I don't even feel the need to go into the bible, with all the contradictions, the outrageous murders and slaughter of innocent lives, rapes, incest - all in the name of god, all twisted to mean whatever the particular reader sees fit for it to mean.
If intelligent seeming design is evidence for an intelligent creator, then who created the creator?
If there were not a mountain of evidence supporting our evolution from pond scum to a species of primate I might feel differently. IF in fact there were prayer centers in place of hospitals, nursing homes, insurance agencies, divorce lawyers, police & fire stations, abortion clinics, and the like - I might be influenced.
IF the deserts of the world suddenly sprouted up with corn, rice, beans - and the spread of deadly viruses by mosquitos was suddenly halted...I would be more sympathetic to listen.
I prefer reality. And whatever reality appears that can be proven is the path I'll most likely follow.
I don't believe not because belief would conflict with my lifestyle - I am a rather quiet, hardworking, family oriented person. I refuse to believe because I see no evidence of it in any fashion. There is no difference between the believer and the non-believer when it comes to statistics of crime, poverty, health, accidents. God either doesn't care - or isn't there.

reply to post by Kailassa


The nature of personal opinion is never scientific...well, unless you want me to hook myself up to an MRI. And this isn't an extraordinary claim. I can even point to the sort of deity I'd most not mind: a semi-interventionist deistic deity. By semi-interventionist I mean it interferes in big events like earthquakes and tsunamis, not day-to-day things.

Bottom line: I have no objection to the belief in any deity so long as it actually has evidence to support it, but I've yet to meet a religious belief that has the sort of necessary evidence.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


While I commend both your honesty and openness, I also feel that you may be placing undue limitations on your potential to believe in a deity by your attachment to "evidence".

I am not suggesting that you lay aside your intellect and embrace faith, but I am proposing that it may be helpful to explore methods other than the physical sciences to obtain knowledge of reality.

This expectation of a verifiable miracle as evidence of a deity stands as an obstacle to experiencing the far more convincing "evidence" which may only be found within oneself.

(Oh, and be careful what you wish for. )

reply to post by bluemirage5


I'm sorry, but why the attack? I'm reporting what I think and I didn't attack anyone.

reply to post by SimonPeter

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

So you know it all ! Got it all figured out huh!

I never claimed either of these things. I simply said there is no evidence for a deity.

You can explain with out a doubt how your rusty butt got here ?

Well, one night, morning, early afternoon or whenever, my parents engaged in coitus and about 9 months later I was born.

Good if you can believe what science has put out with all of those missing links and holes in their theory .

Which missing links and which holes in the theory?

Just like old Sagan , throw a couple of billion years into the equation .

Why has this post in a thread which is most decidedly not about evolution become an attack on evolution?

Then no one would be old enough to challenge you . Sure maybe in a couple of billion years an old Desoto will turn into a bright shinny Rolls Royce .

Common misrepresentations of evolution...
1: Evolution doesn't take place within the life span of an organism, it takes place over successive generations.
2: Cars don't reproduce or carry genetic information
3: Evolution is observed even in our lifetimes.

You will believe one day , but for now you simply chose not to believe .

I do not choose not to believe. I cannot will myself to believe. If I could will myself to believe things I'd will this massive migraine I have away. I'd will my distractions away. I'd will all my worries away and live as a perfectly optimistic individual.

I cannot choose to believe. It would be dishonest to pretend otherwise.

reply to post by AQuestion


That's more or less where I'm at. I'm willing to accept any proof...but I'm willing to accept proof doesn't make quite as flashy a thread title. Thank you for your civil and open-minded post.

reply to post by sykickvision


I agree with what you say for the most part; I was raised Christian and attended church regularly for 16 years. I made many friends from my church in NJ, enjoyed the youth group, activities, and felt like I was part of Gods "flock". I completely understand how easy it is to follow a religion because you were raised that way; taught all the things that convinced you it was the only path. I mean, who wants to even risk going to hell for eternity. But, currently at the age of 21, I've had many turning points in my logical though process that made me question the faith. As you said, all the examples of violence and such that occur by "Gods will". Doesn't seem right, or just. Burning in hell for eternity because you committed a few carnal sins on this short mortal life. So I understand how it is.

Now on that note; lately I've been feeling this calling, almost as if my spiritual essence is hungering. Although I don't agree with most of the logic behind the Christian faith, I won't rule out the notion of a God. Because logic in my mind, dictates that there must be a creator. There must be something way beyond our current comprehension of reality; some being that decided to create this/these universes, and beyond that. There is nothing wrong with believing in a God, and having love for him/her. LOVE regardless of your faith, is VERY important. And even if I pass away and there is no God...what did I have to lose? Absolutely nothing.

reply to post by Raelsatu


On a further note, I'll add that there might possibly be some intelligence involved in creation somehow. Perhaps. I DO believe that if an invisible god does exist - he doesn't require anything of us at all other than for us to be ourselves. There is no overwhelming proof of his existence. There is nothing at all that is indisputable to indicate that he does exist. Why would he make it this way? Why would he have made everything to look as if he didn't exist? If someone wants to believe in god - that's fine. Go ahead.
The mention of a variant of Pascals wager brings up the question that wouldn't an omnipotent god know that your beliefs weren't sincere?

reply to post by madness mysoul


Surely this question should haunt you . How did life ever start when a single celled amoeba has more DNA information than your cells . RNA DNA has not even been theorised to assimilate itself on some sterile rock and then insert itself in a living cell that doesn't exist either and then multiply and these cells become nerve cells , muscle cells etc. and stay together and learn to function as an organism , survive harsh environments and then branch off into different mutations to become you . The question is not how you were created but how was life began on a rock that was red hot and sterile . If you say that a spore came through space or an alien set up life on earth, how did he come to exist . Yet you will digest theory about anything convenient that man puts forth . Convenient meaning you don't have to answer to a God , when your dead your dead theory . You were dead before you were alive . Science states that you cannot destroy energy only change its state of being . Doctors are starting to believe that the conscious goes on even when the brain ceases to function . What do we actually know about these matters ? How can we really say God does not exist ?

You're confusing abiogenesis with evolution.

reply to post by sykickvision


I think that the supreme being, simply does not wish to interfere with the natural evolution of the human condition. It is up to us--- as conscious observers of the universe---to unfold it's secrets. To delve into the physics of matter, of energy, and of the spirit. If God just came out and said hey, here I am, there wouldn't be so much room for people to contemplate. We would know there was a God, we would expect him to help us to no limit, and would blame him for all the pain in the world. I don't know or have the exact answer, but maybe someday I will.

Originally posted by SimonPeter

 

Science states that you cannot destroy energy only change its state of being . Doctors are starting to believe that the conscious goes on even when the brain ceases to function . What do we actually know about these matters ? How can we really say God does not exist ?

Yes, another reason I think God exist. I would like to think that after my conscious leaves this body, there will be somewhere for it to go. How tragic it would be if there was no Guide to lead my soul somewhere; and I would float throughout nothingness for eternity. The condition of existing within a medium of complete nothing, perhaps in the ultimate loneliness, would be perfect tragedy, possibly even worse than hell as it's described. Matter and energy cannot be destroyed; I believe neither can the spirit.

Some theorize that there is no safety net. Meaning after you die, your spirit sinks into the reality you've created for it during your mortal life. So for example, an atheist would become lost; all alone for eternity, wallowing in complete confusion and sorrow. Then the people that had faith in their religion would be greeted by an afterlife. I don't think it'd be a good/logical idea to completely dismiss God, seeing as you may really be creating the afterlife for yourself.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Because it would be pretty awesome for there to be a supernatural being taking care of everything

My friend, it is, indeed, pretty awesome.

In some ways, I have struggled contrary to you -- to find reasons not to believe. For a long time, I felt that my perception of reality necessitated a lack of belief in God, and my continued belief was problematic. But as I worked through my studies, it became more and more apparent that I was wrong in my conclusions.

Part of it, I suppose, is that I am grounded in maths and physics, both of which are far more open to seeing a "grand scheme of things" than students of biology or chemistry might be. The latter seem somewhat captured by their expectations, and yet, no matter what paths I went down, I failed to find a rationale that negated God.

Rather, maths and physics seem to bear out something else. What, I don't know. I fill in the gaps with the Christian God, because I am a Christian. If there is nothing behind the concepts of math and physics, if it is all just a random happenstance, I am amazed at the statistical unlikelihood of what there is.

If we are tied to duality, it is that there is a God (of some sort) or there is simple chance. I'm not a fundamentalist, so my perception of God is a bit less than "he decreed that the being of 'adjensen' would exist", but that he put things in favour of my existence in place. But the bottom line is that I am here, and my randomly statistical justification of that approaches zero.

Belief is not an abrogation of thought, rather it seems to be an acceptance of something beyond what we are. The agreement that we are not the centre of all, that our accepted notions of the incredibly unlikely statistical likelihood of reality demonstrates that there is, indeed, something else going on.

reply to post by adjensen


Dear Adjensen,

There is a person who posted a thread titled, "What is reality, a new documentary..." He watched a video on quantum physics and had some questions. I tried as best I could to explain it; but, your understanding of physics may assist him. Please consider finding his thread and giving your perspective. Be well.