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My personal take on God, from a Religion Basher

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posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 12:26 PM
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I spend a lot of time on ATS pointing out the evils and errors of organized religion. I have been asked on occasion: "Well, what do you believe then?" I think I will answer.

I did not write the following. I don't know who did. I found it as a series of postings on a different type of website years ago. It is long, but it is the closest to what I actually believe about "God". Of course, as with anything I post, I may be 100% wrong.
****************

What is God?

Is God a giant man who once incarnated as his own son 2,000 years ago through the womb of a woman in the Middle East? Certainly not. Is God a man who created everything we see? Wrong again. These stories are just perceptions filtered through the limited human mind. They are not ultimate truths. Is God male? No way. This is an erroneous interpretation by the male ego.

"God" is the Life Force

One can think of God as the life force or sentience that permeates the cosmos, gravity or levity, it matters not. As an example of such an energy, one can take a plug and stick it into an electrical outlet - this is what becoming spiritual is all about. One becomes plugged into "God." But think about that electrical life force: It has no form. In other words, it's not a human being. It has no gender; it's not a male. It has no color; it's not white. It has no size and no container. That life force, or "God," is not a giant white man, as we have been told, who can mysteriously incarnate himself through the womb of a virgin of any particular ethnicity. Rather than being historical, these are myths that are merely symbolic for the creation of matter out of spirit.

In the Far East, this life force has been discerned as and termed "the Tao." The Tao is the "thing" that makes birds chirp, cats purr and the sap of the trees run. We can also call it cosmic consciousness. It is simply an energy, sentience or spirit that pervades all things. Far from having gender, as we have been led to believe, it is the magnetic principle between the male and female potencies. It is also the male and female polarities themselves. This Great Spirit, Tao, or God, encompasses all things. If it is not all-encompassing, it is not God. Anything less than the total is not God. The definition of "God" is omnipresence itself. Nothing is outside of "God."

The Cosmic Mind

The creative/destructive mechanism of this all-encompassing life force can be called the "cosmic mind" or the "universal mind." This cosmic mind projects its thoughts into form; hence, reality could be called "God's Dream." But this dream includes the fragmentation of the Divine into seemingly dense objects and entities that have a will and independence of their own. As separate entities, we are nonetheless connected atomically to this life force, but the individual ego separates itself into a deluded state. This delusion, or Maya, can become so strong that the creative life force is limited and the entity in which this spark exists no longer knows that it is "God." This delusion, which can be called "Satan, if personified, is how existence creates, by separating itself out of the whole and presenting the illusion of the many. But this delusion/ego/Satan is not anything bad until it is so separate and dense that it no longer sees itself all around but sees "other," which it is then free to harm if need be or desire arises.

True Spirituality

True spirituality is defined not by separation but by union, union with the whole, union with the life force, Great Spirit, Tao, or God, that lies behind creation and binds it together. Of course, the separation itself could also be thought of as a spiritual experience, in that it provides an opportunity for an individual soul to truly develop itself. Yet in that development, we come back to the omnidimensionality of being one with the cosmos. It is a paradox, yet one we like to live with, one that we ourselves created, as directors of our own drama. To be separate yet infinite - now, this is "God." This is ecstasy.

Anything that imposes limits on an infinite divinity is not a complete spiritual system or experience. Anything that projects form upon this genderless, raceless, formless and nonhierarchical godliness is not the ultimate truth. The ultimate truth, which is "God," cannot have any form whatsoever, no gender, no race and no hierarchy.

"God" Has No Form or Gender

In the Gnostic or esoteric systems of any religion, the Ultimate is always perceived as utterly formless. The realization of such formless Ultimate is considered within these systems to be the flowering of consciousness, the maturation of the soul and psyche. Thus, the definition of "God" as a father figure in the sky is a lower understanding upon which lies man's puerility and immaturity. Creation has no gender, nor does the creator. "God" is not only father but mother, and grandfather and aunt and grandmother and uncle and cousin and sister and brother, etc. If the "Mother of God" can give birth to "God," She must also be God. Can an imperfect, unholy being give birth to a perfect, divine one? She must also be divine, which makes her God.

In reality, behind the fables, the truth is that the "Mother of God" also has no form but is simply the female aspect of creation, when the neutral Spirit-Atom begins to divide itself. The first elements out of the formless creator/destroyer/ balancer are male and female, in equal proportions. The perfect yin/yang balance is the basis of creation. There is no hierarchy in spirit; hence, the female is never in reality lower than the male, as certain "religious" traditions teach. In humans, the density grows so strong, the ego so potent and intoxicating, that the gender aspect becomes all-consuming. One is nearly completely defined by the gender of the material vessel in which the genderless consciousness is carried. While this illusion is remedied spiritually, in this earthly dimension these differences remain between male and female. The remedy is that the consciousness of the individual, through enlightenment or "God-realization," recognizes that it is both male and female and neither. It is an impartial observer or "witness." Yet, we need not be so hasty in maintaining a genderless state for ourselves, as we are rather fond of the play between polarities, which is in large part why we take birth.

The Ego, Consciousness and Enlightenment

The ego will perceive itself as having a gendered experience, but the witness behind the ego is a clean slate of pure sentience. In this dualistic creation, both experiences will happen simultaneously, where one can know the union of existence, the genderlessness and egolessness, and one can enjoy the separation. The difference is one of consciousness. The conscious, awakened individual will know in her/his inner being that she/he is "one with creation," but will also know that as the creator of her/his own drama she/he has chosen to incarnate into the denser, more deluded realms, for the sake of the experience itself. He or she has no other reason for incarnating, just as "God," or the universal mind, has no reason for creating except for its own amusement. Once an illuminated soul knows this, then he or she is free to create his or her own experience and purpose for incarnating. This is liberation. This is enlightenment.

Enlightenment, which seems to many to be so nebulous, awesome and scary, is very easy. It is not miracles or magic tricks, although those can be developed if desired strongly enough. Enlightenment is simply the realization of who is pulling the strings of one's puppet. It is the revelation of autonomy to the individual. It is the bestowal of the ultimate god-authority over one's own being. It is when the cosmic creative mind and the individual consciousness merge, when one's mind becomes united with the Cosmos. This mental merger goes beyond the mind and penetrates the very cells of the being. This penetration is possible because the god-force resides within the soul-cells of every entity.

Perceiving the Divine

There are many practices that can lead to union or reunion with this life force, Great Spirit, Tao, God. We can use yoga or prayer, meditation, chanting or sex. We can play basketball in the Zone. We can eat good food or engage in intelligent, funny or meaningless conversation. We can run up hills, climb mountains and swim seas. Or we can sleep. Ultimately, no practice is needed, when one becomes united with this "godhead," when one has returned to the natural state, from which the human ego has created separation. Reunion with this life force is the mark of true religious experience and system. A true religious system is not one that demands slobbering at the feet of a separate god-ego - however large and frightening, whatever race or gender - but one that leads to communion and union with the quality of divinity itself.

God is not Borg

The cosmic union of which we speak, however, is voluntary and not dependent on the grace or force of another. It is not the soul-enslavement prescribed by religious ideologies that say one must surrender to "God." It is merely the experience of Totality, of the Cosmos, which we think is a pretty big rush. This "coming back to God/Godhead" is not the BORG experience, wherein one is assimilated against one's will to an uncreative group of drones linked to a central mind. Indeed, that totalitarian despot is the classic description of "God" provided by theists and religionists.

All we're talking about here is when your mind is blown, such that your whole world dissolves and you are in another plane altogether, one that contains the plentitude of the void, with its infinite worlds - the ultimate paradox and the biggest amusement park. Now, this Cosmic Orgasm is "God," not the creature that priests portray who wants you to be begging him all the time, while sleepwalking through life, like BORG. Knowing this Cosmic Orgasm actually allows you to be free from GOD/BORG. It allows you to become the creator. And from there you come back down to Earth and actually relish the separation, which is also divine, for it allows you, me, us and them to exist - individuals having a vast array of often exquisite experiences. Knowing we are the creator of our own dramas, however, allows us to make those experiences even more exquisite and ecstasy-filled.

The Afterlife is an area of human consciousness we all enter upon leaving the physical world at physical death. It is also the area we enter when unconscious, as in sleep. Physically alive human beings can learn to consciously enter and return at will to explore. Perhaps a better way to say this is that we can learn to focus our attention beyond the physical world. Physically alive humans don't really leave the physical world to explore; they just learn to focus their attention beyond it. There are specific areas of the nonphysical world that are inhabited by human beings who are no longer physically alive. These are the areas known as the Afterlife.

We are all multidimensional beings, and exist in more "places" than we can see each other with our physical eyes. But each of us chose to minimize our awareness of other places where we exist as a part of entering this reality. Weve each come here for our own reasons, the most basic of which seems to be: to learn how to experience and express Pure Unconditional Love to a greater extent.

Many of us wonder why wed choose to have little or no awareness of our existence before entering this level of physical world consciousness and why wed also limit awareness of our existence beyond this world. Answers Ive found to these questions, so far, point to two general areas: the need to maintain conscious awareness within this reality; and not spoiling the movie.

There are presently over 5 billion human beings crowded together on planet earth. The thoughts and feelings of each have an existence in the nonphysical world. In a way, we are all like little radio stations, constantly broadcasting our thoughts and feelings into the air. If we arrived in this physical world reality with our nonphysical perception still completely open, it would be like constantly hearing 5 billion different radio stations at once. Such exposure would completely jam our awareness with blaring noise. So, as part of entering this level of conscious, this physical world reality, we intentionally close down most of our awareness of nonphysical realities.
The other aspect of why we are unaware of other realities in which we exist has to do with the fact that in those realities we know everything about ourselves. This includes the reasons weve chosen to enter physical world reality to learn more about experiencing and expressing Pure Unconditional Love. The way in which we learn requires that we learn to feel, to experience, to understand, to know. The most powerful way in which we learn these things is through experiencing the emotional impact of what we do. Without experiencing the emotional impact, learning is a very slow process. With it, we learn much more quickly. So, imagine your life is like the latest movie playing in the local theater. If you knew everything that was going to happen during that movie, how much potential would it have for emotional impact on you? Probably very little. Youd know every little twist and turn in the plot, and the movies final outcome and you probably wouldnt feel much while you watched it. We learn more about experiencing and expressing Pure Unconditional Love through the emotional impacts of our interactions. So, we chose not to have access to the parts of ourselves, which know everything about whats going to happen, so we dont spoil the movie for ourselves.

The bible says, "In the beginning was the word" but words are thoughts spoken out loud, an inaccurate translation. In the beginning was thought!
People are trained by their methodology to think only about the programmed thoughts of acquiring things, others opinions, self preservation among thieves and murderers, and escape from self directed thoughts through addiction to TV, movies and Soul jarring music. Last but not least, pursuit of sexual experience be it in or out of monogamous relationships. There is also the mind-boggling profusion of religious entities to further lead you from the personal quest of understanding the connection to the source of your presence on this planet in the first place. I can assure you that Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed had nothing to do with it.

This is a point in the evolution of the planet that brings to the forefront of each individual's thoughts the question of why me, why now and what is really going on in the reality that is right now in the time we are experiencing. What really is going on behind-the-scenes we are looking at through the five senses? Why is there this feeling that there is more to the story than just appearances. Who indeed has set this up and is pulling the strings. Is it really just a group of some bodies that is in charge? If this is the case, then is the God thing really a hoax after all? There are those who believe that to be the true essence of the scenario. Fortunately for the good of all, that is not the Truth.

God

All that exists comes out of God. Nothing exists outside of God. You are a part of God that determines the totality of God. You are a microcosm of the macrocosm. Your very basic building blocks come out of God.

As a comparison, think about water. Water is liquid, yet it can also become ice, steam, and gas. All appear to be entirely different substances, but the reality is, they originate from the same building blocks.

God is simply energy that is in the process of explaining itself by experiencing itself. Out of God came all worlds, both seen and unseen. Everything that exists is a part of God. God is in a continual process of experiencing God. God is rearranging God to answer all questions, such as:
What am I?
How high am I?
How deep am I?
What colors am I?
What shapes can I take?
How many ways can I feel?
What functions can I perform?

Every time you feel a connection with the sky and sea, with plants and trees, with animals, with other people, you feel a oneness with them. If you allow it, you can feel that oneness pulling you into Itself. That oneness is direct awareness of God Itself. Direct awareness is explaining God to you, and you to God. You can feel that "I am a part of God. I am a part of All That Is."

Understand that you are not God, but you are a part of God. As an analogy, you are not the ocean (God), but you are a wave upon the ocean. You have the potential of experiencing the ocean by blending with it. Understanding the ocean begins by analyzing one drop of water. In the same way, understanding the microcosm (you), deepens your understanding of the macrocosm (God).

As a part of God, you are a unique set of experiences that continue to answer the question, "What is God?" You are a story waiting to be told. It would be very boring if you set down to read a novel, and the first page read, "The man was murdered," and the second page read, "The butler did it. The end."

The reasons you read the novel are for entertainment, to learn strategy, and to challenge your mind. You want to know all about the beginning, the middle, and the resolution. Each part of the novel is equally important. The same is true of your life. Just as you read a novel for intrigue, challenge, and entertainment, you set up your own personal story in the same way, for the same reasons.

All of your experiences come from God. You can choose to understand or not understand what is happening to you. When you choose to understand your experiences, you move through them, and on into the next one knowing that each experience explains you to yourself, and in turn God to God. The more you understand yourself, the deeper you can explore inside of yourself. The deeper you go, the more you learn about God. The more you learn about God, the more you learn about yourself.

You are a finger of God. You are here for experience. You are here to explain God to God. The story line that you, others, the planet, the solar system, etc. develop is merely just that a story line within the totality of All That Is. When you allow yourself to consciously connect with that totality, you have access to all the information that you ever need to know.

Choose wisely how you spend your time exploring, for the totality is endless, with more twists and turns than you could ever possibly imagine.

*************

Thanks for taking the time to read this, if you did. I'm not trying to sway anyones beliefs here. If it made you think, then that is enough for me.




posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 10:17 PM
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Hooray! Another anti-religion kid on ATS! haha! Well, I liked the article, where did you find that?

I too, don't like religion but am extremely close to God. Its funny! I love it! If you want to see any of my beliers, You can search through all of the silly religious threads on ATS, Ive spewed amillion times there!

I enjjoyed the paragraph on enlightenment. Many think it is something far too complex, and turly having a conversation with God is something an elite few can participate it. THis is not true! Bah!

THanks for sharing your beliefs, its good to have someone know where you're coming from!



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 01:25 AM
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After reading that article several times, my impression of it is: Words-- lots and lots of words. Not that the article was too long, but rather its choice of words often led to misunderstanding of what was meant. Since you did not write the article, I can not ask you to clarify what was meant by certain aspects. So I will assume those things which could read certain ways do indeed read the way that matches my own understanding.

With this assumption, there is not too much with which I disagree.

One of the main things with which does not match my understanding follows:



Many of us wonder why wed choose to have little or no awareness of our existence before entering this level of physical world consciousness and why wed also limit awareness of our existence beyond this world. Answers Ive found to these questions, so far, point to two general areas: the need to maintain conscious awareness within this reality; and not spoiling the movie.


This choice is not something I believe is in our nature.

An acorn falls from a tree. Sprouts roots, and begins to draw energy from the soil. It grows into a sapling, and then into a mighty tree.

The acorn did not choose to fall from the tree. It did not choose to sprout roots. It did not choose to draw energy from the soil. It did not choose to grow into a sapling. It did not choose to grow into a mighty tree.

This is the nature of acorns. So too is our own nature.

There was no choice to become what we are. We were born into this world just as the acorn falls from the tree.

We did not choose to forget what we knew, we were born without that understanding as is the nature of man.

To an enlightened "soul" there is no "I", there is no "we".

Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Budhists (and likely more) all teach humility is the path to enlightenment/salvation. The ultimate humility, is the realization and acceptance that there is no "I".

.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 09:21 AM
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Raphael, greetings. I understand your analogy of the acorn, but I'm not sure the acorn or the tree has that extra spark that we do, the spirit, or soul, if you would prefer.

I found the piece to be quite clear and logical. Any vagueness I think comes from the fact that it doesn't claim to give you the answers, it just explains what the real questions are and points out that you already part of and are helping to shape the answers.

I consider myself a scientist, so know that there are many unprovable statements in the piece, but I am not claiming that this information is true, but only that I believe it is.

My scientific rational for God is that I think the universe and the way stuff works is just too elegant for there not to have been some intellegent design somewhere along the way. As in the piece I posted, even the structure if the universe is repeated in the microcosm and the macrocosm. Everywhere we look, we see orderly systems created from chaos. These orderly systems combine in very chaotic ways to form larger orderly systems, and so on, and so on, possibly in both directions, the infinate and the sub-atomic. It seems likely that the universe is both orderly and chaotic at the same time, thus the duality. This concept echos the yin/yang and the male/female apsects, again both mentioned in the piece.

The reason I latched onto what the piece says it that it touched on very many things that I had already come to understand through my own observations, questions, and personal experiences of myself and others. I also like the goal of experiencing and expressing Pure Unconditional Love. I can think of nothing more positive to try to do with one's self. I personally have a long way to go on this, but I do work on it.

Scat, I found this on a website years ago and just quickly pasted it into a word doc. Didn't realize until much later that I didn't get the poster's name. My thanks go out to who ever it was though. It has helped me through some hard times and has helped me solidify my own beliefs and goals.

Peace



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 10:34 AM
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I would still like an explanation of Noah's ark...... Not to mention Mary magdalene's book...


The only time I felt "one" with god was when I was on E sitting in this girls back yard... THe stars were out, she had a water fountain everything was green, I couldn't help but to go lay beside the water fountain and stare up at the sky..
I felt the "sucking" in thing...

I think this dude got his ideas from the celestine prophecy.

It's a cool idea and can easy take those impressionable minds into that kind of thinking but again, god created us in his image, he is a form of a man, there are stories of him coming out of the sky talking (in a man's voice) there was thousands of people who witnessed that at mt sinai, they were scared #less, he brought moses to the top of the mountain and gave him the 12 commandments because people were getting out of control...


he is a man, I agree with the energy thing but the energy is only "part" of his creation...
Good article though. Brought back memories.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 10:44 AM
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Ambient Sound, marvelous post!...Throughout the last couple of months my own beliefs have been approaching something similar to this. It makes the most sense to me given the universe I have to experience.
Each and everyone of us are in fact "parts of god"...God is the WHOLE and that WHOLE is tugging at us to become one with it...one with the cosmic consciousness...Its part of a cycle-tear down, build up, tear down, etc...

A question: The "perceiving the divine" section was a little unclear to me...How does one return to the natural state. Through meditation and such devices OR is nothing needed except simply "being" and acting realistically?



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 10:59 AM
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I think it's just getting people's superficial heads out of the clouds and bringing em back down to earth... when you go camping in the woods it's hard to act anything but down to earth, but when your suburbia there are more demands and stereotypes. I guess higher expectations of people.

once your down to earth it's easier to appreciate the little things, the natural things, the things that are free.. You can't have a higher sense of consciousness or awareness stuck in the mindset of a busy busty perpson.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by KSoze
A question: The "perceiving the divine" section was a little unclear to me...How does one return to the natural state. Through meditation and such devices OR is nothing needed except simply "being" and acting realistically?


I know when I go out into the woods and not so much meditate but just be still, watch and listen for a while (30 minutes? An hour maybe?) I start getting a sharper awarness on an almost sub-concious level. Of course during that time, you are becoming more of the forest and it is becoming more of you. The animals come out again and grow acustomed to your presence. You can almost breathe with the trees, it seems. Perhaps this is just my equivalent of prayer since I grew up in and around forests and thats what I'm used to and learned to respect from an early age.

I think one of the most important things I get from this is the need for self-knowledge. This, I believe, starts being honest with yourself about who and what you are, what you have done, and why. Recognize the good and the evil you have done and be responsible for both. Be truthful and without pride about what you can say you really do and don't know.

This is my Major problem with organized, dogmatic religion. The current state of the Universe seems to preclude certainty. There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know". Most western religions will not be this honest and for this I can give them no respect or credence as I've detailed in other threads. However, it must be said that there are many who use their religions to tap their own inner power. Belief channeled in a positive way is a good thing and is just a different path to what is ultimately probably the same source.

In this system, if you want to call it that, not knowing is part of the system and the exploring is how we grow and experience ourselves (and God). As one excercises muscles to make them stronger, I suppose one could say we are excercising our spirits.

You know, at the back of all this is the so-far unmentioned question of creation. I think Robert A. Heinlein said it well:

"In the beginning, God divided Itself into an infinate number of pieces so that It might have friends"

Peace and thanks for reading my words.

[edited for spelling]


[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Ambient Sound]



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Raphael, greetings. I understand your analogy of the acorn, but I'm not sure the acorn or the tree has that extra spark that we do, the spirit, or soul, if you would prefer.


Indeed, the acorn does not have "that extra spark", but "that extra spark" has nothing to do with an egg and a sperm uniting to form an embryo. Like the acorn falling from the tree this is simply the nature of man.

"That extra spark" exists because that is the way it was intended to be.

Consider the nature of flint and steel. Neither the flint nor the steel choose to create the spark. The spark does not choose to be created from flint and steel. Sparks are created from flint and steel when certain conditions are met.

So too is the nature of man. The sperm and egg do not choose to make "that extra spark". "That extra spark" does not choose to be made from the sperm and egg. "That extra spark" is created from sperm and egg when certain conditions are met.


I found the piece to be quite clear and logical. Any vagueness I think comes from the fact that it doesn't claim to give you the answers, it just explains what the real questions are and points out that you already part of and are helping to shape the answers.


The article could have been more concise, there are many aspects of it that left me worndering if it was just an attempt to slam "religion" or an attempt to explan the Truth behind "religion". There were several other things that were said that could have been understood multiple ways.


I consider myself a scientist, so know that there are many unprovable statements in the piece, but I am not claiming that this information is true, but only that I believe it is.


Seek understanding. Ask "why?" The Truth will be seen for what it is.

On a side note:
If a "scientist type" asks you to prove the existance of God to him, first have him prove to you the existance of quarks, leptons, and gauge fields to you. Both require a belief in something that cannot be seen in the explanation alone.




My scientific rational for God is that I think the universe and the way stuff works is just too elegant for there not to have been some intellegent design somewhere along the way. As in the piece I posted, even the structure if the universe is repeated in the microcosm and the macrocosm. Everywhere we look, we see orderly systems created from chaos. These orderly systems combine in very chaotic ways to form larger orderly systems, and so on, and so on, possibly in both directions, the infinate and the sub-atomic. It seems likely that the universe is both orderly and chaotic at the same time, thus the duality. This concept echos the yin/yang and the male/female apsects, again both mentioned in the piece.


Just something for you to consider in your search for truth.

Given an infinite (or arbitrarily large) number of monkeys, each randomly typing on their own typerwriters, the complete works of Shakespeare will be produced by at least one monkey from beginning to end without error. That is the nature of random things found in chaos. Elegance found in the randomness of chaos.

I'll let you decide what this has to do with God on your own.


The reason I latched onto what the piece says it that it touched on very many things that I had already come to understand through my own observations, questions, and personal experiences of myself and others. I also like the goal of experiencing and expressing Pure Unconditional Love. I can think of nothing more positive to try to do with one's self. I personally have a long way to go on this, but I do work on it.


"Pure Unconditional Love" is not proud or haughty nor is it arrogant or assertive. "Pure Unconditional Love" comes only through humility.

.




[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 04:06 PM
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Hey,

I was reading my book and thought I would post this as it ties into what you are saying....
Robert meditates and tries to describe whathe feels as he progresses towards his spirtiual peak...

Frsit he says his conscious mind quiets, allowing a deeper simplet part of himself to emergy, he believes that this inner self is the truest part of who he is, the part that neer changes.
This inner self is not a metapho or an attitude; it is literal, constant, and real.

It is what remins when worries, fears, desires, and all other preoccupations of the conscious mind are stripped away. He considers this inner self the very essence of his being. If pressed he may even call it his soul.

Whatever Robert calls this deeper consciousness, he claims that when it emerges during those moments of meditation when he is most completely absorbed in looking inward, he suddenly understand that his inner self is NOT AN ISOLATED ENTITY, but that he is inextricably CONNECTED TO ALL OF CREATION.

Yet when he tries to put this intesely personal insight into words, he finds himself falling back on familiar cliches that have been employed for centuries to express the elusive nature of spiritual experience.
"There is a sense of timlessness and infinity, it feels like i'm part of everything and everyone in existence:.

To the traditional scientific mind of course these terms are useless. Science concerns itself with that which can be weighed, counted, calculated, and measured, anything that can't be verified by objective observation simply can't be called scientific.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by TrueLies
To the traditional scientific mind of course these terms are useless. Science concerns itself with that which can be weighed, counted, calculated, and measured, anything that can't be verified by objective observation simply can't be called scientific.


Yes, and notice that I am very careful to make distinction between belief and knowledge. But as we are limited, our science is limited in the fact that we don't have the right tools to percieve everything as it actually is. We don't see all light in the spectrum, nor do we hear all frequencies of sound. It's not hard to imagine these (originally self-imposed as a condition for physical existance) limits carry over into other areas of perception that we may not be aware of.

Take the human brain. Really, take it right out of somebody. That person is no longer there. His body may be, but his mind and his conscious self aren't. If you then postulate the existance of a soul (most religions do, right?) and assume it has some interaction with the thought process and the identity, it becomes obvious that the most logical solution is that the brain is the physical interface for the soul or spirit, somthing that apparently isn't physical. Now, I certainly can not prove the above is true, but it is what I believe based on my observasion of the fact that you can remove or replace almost any other part of the human body and you still can have a thinking, conscious human with an identity and the rest. The brain is different. No one can think and no identity can exist (in this physical reality) without a brain to house it.

Human consciousness it just about the most amazing thing I can think of that I know for a fact exists. That we can even consider these problems and formulate these ideas say to me that there is something going on more than what we can measure. Consciousness can not be measured, weighed, or quanified except by it's absence or possibly the intensity of the physical effects on the medium that "carries" it. Gravity is the same. We can only measure their effects on other things. Science acknowledges these phenomina even though it can't get a handle on them, so to speak.

Perhaps I should have said I use the scientific method to appoach my beliefs. In this case, belief becomes theory and you look for evidence to support the theory and for evidence to disprove it. The honest Scientist should do both and I like to think I do. Some of my beliefs may be unprovable and untestable with our current science. That is why it is a belief. I cannot claim certain knowledge. However, nothing that I believe contradicts our science either. If I don't know, I'll admit I don't know.

You guys can bust me up on technicallities if you want, I'm sure. I rarely discuss these ideas and beliefs and I haven't had 1500 years to to codify my beliefs, much less describe them accurately, but when you get right down to it we all take some things on faith to an extent. I have decided to place my faith in my own oberservasions, experiences, and conclusions (and those of others who I believe credible enough to trust) rather than old writtings that my experiences of human nature tell me cannot have remained uncorrupted and unchanged from their original form, even if these writtings were actually 100% true when written, which I have no evidence of.

In the end, these beliefs attract me because they put the responsibility for our lives where it belongs, with us. They are not dependant on fear or dogma or even reward. They are based on purposes for existance that I find to be logical and reasonable. As I said, I had already figured some of this out myself before I found the old posting I shared with you. I was just happy that I found where someone had put a good bit of it into words better than I had.



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound
You guys can bust me up on technicallities if you want, I'm sure. I rarely discuss these ideas and beliefs and I haven't had 1500 years to to codify my beliefs, much less describe them accurately, but when you get right down to it we all take some things on faith to an extent. I have decided to place my faith in my own oberservasions, experiences, and conclusions (and those of others who I believe credible enough to trust) rather than old writtings that my experiences of human nature tell me cannot have remained uncorrupted and unchanged from their original form, even if these writtings were actually 100% true when written, which I have no evidence of.

In the end, these beliefs attract me because they put the responsibility for our lives where it belongs, with us. They are not dependant on fear or dogma or even reward. They are based on purposes for existance that I find to be logical and reasonable. As I said, I had already figured some of this out myself before I found the old posting I shared with you. I was just happy that I found where someone had put a good bit of it into words better than I had.


I assure you it is not my intent to bust you up on technicalities. My intent is to aid in your understanding. One of the best ways to understand your own beliefs is to explain "Why?" to someone who does not have the same view.

While that article may have been a good start for putting your beliefs into words, the process should not stop there. When presented with a new idea, one should take that idea and examine it closely. Prove to yourself if it is true or not.

While you do not place your faith in old writings, there is truth to be found there if you choose to look. But if you do look, examine it closely; prove to yourself if it is true or not.

Indeed, some of these old texts say exactly that.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 (King James Version)
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.


I can not make you believe as I do, nor would I want to do that. I will however pass on my own understanding and let you decide whether it is the Truth.

.



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO

While that article may have been a good start for putting your beliefs into words, the process should not stop there. When presented with a new idea, one should take that idea and examine it closely. Prove to yourself if it is true or not.


Oh, be assured that my search for truths never ends, after all I believe that is one of the reasons we are even here.


While you do not place your faith in old writings, there is truth to be found there if you choose to look. But if you do look, examine it closely; prove to yourself if it is true or not.


I absolutely agree. There is much wisdom contained in old writings and as Bruce Lee said, "If it works, use it." Thou shalt not kill is pretty smart, no matter who you believe actually said it to whom and when.


I can not make you believe as I do, nor would I want to do that. I will however pass on my own understanding and let you decide whether it is the Truth.


That is all anyone can really do if you think about it (other than negitive things like conversion at sword point). As I've said, I think as each person is an individual, and so each will have slightly differrent path or way to God, even those who share the same belief system. I guess what's important is what you do with those beliefs.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 01:17 PM
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Hooray! Another anti-religion kid on ATS! haha! Well, I liked the article, where did you find that?


Two questions Scat:

1.) Do you believe in God? The same God that most christians believe in?

2.) Do you believe in Jesus, and that he died for our sins?

If your answers to both of these questions are, "Yes" then congratulations!! You're a christian!

And I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the good majority of the people on ATS are anti-religion.


[Edited on 14-7-2004 by Herman]



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 09:49 PM
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There are aspects to the appearance of Jesus, Mohammed, Moses that no one seem to be grasping.

These men were civil leaders, they organized people and things around them, they altered the ways that nations and men were organized and gathered and maintained. We remember them because their legacy endures in the form of thought they founded their way upon, it was sucessful and gathered enough people to it to form religions, nations, and schools.

The great secret truth is not at any time taught by Jesus, instead he alludes to it in parables. We can truly see that this sacred state of extacsy cannot be taught at all, it comes to those to whom it is given.

We remember Muhammed not because of the poetic quality of the Koran, or of the sublime nature of its laws, (Its laws are mostly of the most carnal and basal sort - much in line with Hammurabi's code than any mystical revealtion) But rather because he convinced millions of Arabs to join him and his princiapls were so sound, they were able to found an EMPIRE that lasted over 1000 years.

Tha is what we forget when looking at these persons. Their divinity is not what is at issue, it is what they did with it. It appears that the whole reason for sending down such grea tintellects to the world is for the establishment of men's civlization, which is the great and sacred duty of the men of the earth.

Those people who want to make laws to live by are the ones who contribute to the darkness of men, because they have reduced the gift of liberty that the great ones restore from time to time. Gradually, this liberty and gladness is stolen away by thieves and criminals.

I think we would agree on a lot of points is we could speak a little more.

Ark



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by Arkaleus
The great secret truth is not at any time taught by Jesus, instead he alludes to it in parables. We can truly see that this sacred state of extacsy cannot be taught at all, it comes to those to whom it is given.


Parables are tools to teach. They require a person to think to find the answer. But Jesus did not always use parables to teach. Matthew Chapter 5 does not use parables. The message it teaches is rather straight forward.

.




[Edited on 14-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]



posted on Jul, 20 2004 @ 07:53 PM
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You are right about that. I felt a little uncomfortable with my statement after reading it again, and what you said about matthew is correct. There was a point when Jesus dropped the veil and spoke plainly about the truth.

But my point was that Jesus concealed the matter from the masses, and wisely hid the treasure in his desciples. I can only imagine the burden of having such great and weighty knowledge in you, yet having no one to share it with.

Sensing the end was near, he could not restrain himself any longer, and spoke openly about things.

Jesus was from the wealth of the universe. All you had to do was hold out your hand and he would fill it, a pebble from him became gems, and ear of corn a banquet, such is the true wealth of the universe. It is all in how we receive our perceptions. If we get them from nasty things, they will feel nasty, if we receive them from good ones, then they will be sweet. Truly, it is not the food we eat, but the spirit in which we conduct ourselves.

That is the true bread.

Ark



posted on Jul, 20 2004 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by Arkaleus
But my point was that Jesus concealed the matter from the masses, and wisely hid the treasure in his desciples. I can only imagine the burden of having such great and weighty knowledge in you, yet having no one to share it with.


How boring would life be if there were nothing left to discover?

Regardless, Jesus shared the most important lessons of all that he knew. He could not teach everything, for his time was short and the minds of men require time to learn.

Perhaps you have heard it said:

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


While the it is not the main lesson of these verses, these verses also teach that the teachings of Jesus form a foundation for faith. This foundation allows each of us to build a faith that is unshakable. By understanding this foundation, one can understand how to recognize that which is good and that which is evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 (King James Version)
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.


It is through this foundation you can "prove all things". This allows each of us to discover "the truth" when we find it.

.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 09:05 PM
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Dear Ambient Sound,
I understand that you think God is a myth and unknowable. I was never looking for Him, but He found me ( or should I say got my attention ) and when He did I knew He was real. There is only really one law that God has.
That's right God has only one law, and that is the law that all non-believers will hang by, and that is "THE LAW OF FAITH". I do want you to know that Ezekial Chapter 38 will soon come to pass and this will too the reign of the anti-christ. He will be the central power figure for the European Union.

We are looking at the end. Go to the European Union and look and you will see a 7 year peace treaty with Israel, the Palestinians, and alot of others will sign it too. This new peace pact is called the European Neighborhood policy with a review at the 3 1/2 year mark! Here is what the Bible predicted
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This treaty gets signed January 2007, and all hell will cut loose on Earth June 2010 for 3 1/2 years. They have to do whatever it takes to get America to come under the Anti-Christ's rule who will be head of the E.U. The Bible is coming true before your eyes, laugh now, you won't later. hide a Bible somewhere because it will be outlawed. Only the people who recieve the mark of the beast or the number of his name 666 during this 7 year time frame are the ones doomed to hell for all eternity during this time.
Just so you know the European Union Senate goes by seat number, it just so happens that seat 666 is empty. The Bible states the anti-christ will not be revealed until we are taken out of the way as stated in II Thessalonians Chapter 2 verse 7. The spirit that is called Maitreya, Teacher has claimed thru his so called prophet William Creme that he has taken up residence in some individual in England. Go to; www.shareintl.org... At the appointed time he says he will show himself to the world on TV as Buddha to Buddhists, and what Christians think Christ looks like to them, or to sum it up what an individual thinks their God should look like to them. That appointed time will most likely be shortly after the Rapture. He will talk to them in their mind and no voice will be heard by them from him thru their TV set. This will be a powerful deception to those who remain. Javier Solana who is of the European Union holds 3 seats, one happens to be the military. He has set up what is called the European Neighborhood Policy, hold on to your hats on this one! This policy is a peace agreement that is for many nations and it starts January 1st, 2007 and it is for 7 YEARS, and get this it has a review at midpoint at 3 1/2 years! Go to; www.evenmore.co.uk... Also if we look at the book of Daniel where it talks of the Image of Gold, Silver, Brass, and Iron mixed with clay. The last empire, the revived Roman Empire is depicted by the iron and clay. Interestingly the Iron does not mix with clay but clings loosely to it. The 10 toes depict the ten primary European Nations in the EU which are Belgium, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxemburg, Portugal, Spain, The Netherlands, United Kingdom. The clay represents the other countries that have loosely committed themselves to the union. Go to; www.evenmore.co.uk... Satan definitely throws it right in the face of non-believers if you Go to; www.evenmore.co.uk... Here it shows a Eurodollar and the backside is incredible, and if it wasn’t for this site by a brother I wouldn’t know what the backside looked like because all other places only show the front! Here we have the Goddess Europa riding a Bull which in Greek mythology is really the God Zeus in disguise who in turn turns on Europa and rapes her. Now why would any country want that as their symbol on their money? Why? Because that is exactly what the anti-christ will do the False church that rides him during the tribulation he will turn on the whore and rape her with fire. Most likely it will be a nuclear weapon since it is turned to rubble in only an hour. Here in Revelation Chapter 17 Verse 16; And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Sharon gave the Gaza strip to the Palestinians, and God gave that land to Israel and no one can give it away. I found it interesting when I stumbled upon the Temple Society and found out how Jews are treated with extreme prejudice at the temple mount in an Israel controlled capitol! Go to; www.templeinstitute.org... I have heard that Sharon plans on using European Union (NOT U.N. TROOPS!) to monitor his borders by the new peace plan and has plans to move the Vatican and U. N. to Jerusalem! Just as Jesus came into the world during the festival of light, became the real lamb on the Passover, I believe the Rapture will happen during the feast of trumpets. Why because a trumpet sounds at our Rapture. I believe we will depart very, very, very, soon. I am not date setting, because no matter if it happens during the feast of trumpets it will still take us all by surprise because we have no idea which one and at what moment. The Government has taken over a church camp in Oklahoma for what I suspect is other than their claim, and it would be an ironic use quite possibly Go to; www.abovetopsecret.com... This website which is secular talks about detention camps hidden within cities themselves and they wonder what they are for. I also saw something similar on NBC or ABC one night where they showed one of these and they were followed and not allowed to go near or talk to the guards back in the early 90’s. Most likely these will be Christian detention camps for those who get saved after the fact before they lop their heads off. I would suspect they will check out that persons health first and see if they are a donor match for organs for anyone and off with the head! There is also a launch of several satellites called the GMS system that will be used for monitoring of law enforcement and fishing at sea, but I suspect it will be used to keep tabs on those with the mark of the beast. There is 2 types of Verichips I think one is actually called, get this, the Digital Angel series. This series will be a transponding type which means it transmits by the energy it receives it uses it to act as a transmitter thereby revealing it’s location. When they started to come up with the Eurodollar they wanted the company to make an electronic security thread for them. But I am sure it was a front for a contract whereby they could procure the “Mark of the Beast implant chips” The actual city of Babylon is %90 rebuilt Go to; www.zionministry.com... Lets face it everything is poised for a Rapture. The Prophetic events of Matthew chapter 24 are happening, II Timothy Chapter 3 describes this generation to a Tee, we have the E.U. , Hamas is in charge of the Palestinians who are bent on the destruction of Israel. We have invaded the land of Babylon. Iran is creating a grave concern for all involved, and lastly no one believes God, the Bible, or what we Christians say about the gloom of the doom to come, that is until, we are shut up in our generations ark of the safety of the Rapture.



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