Unbowed China leader warns US

Unbowed China leader warns US

Chinese President Hu Jintao, unbowed by pressure on a state visit, warned the United States on Thursday not to press on Taiwan and Tibet as he insisted that the rising Asian power sought cooperation.

The Chinese leader said that Taiwan and Tibet "concern China's sovereignty and territorial integrity and they represent China's core interests."

Fact is, no way in hell the US can abandon Taiwan... nor shun the Dalai Lama. Would be too costly politically in the US.

Taiwan right now is asking for more new weapons, things like the F-16 C/D...which many military analysts say the US will have to provide this year. Of course doing that will piss off China.

I think the US-China will end up on a collision course on those issue, mostly the Taiwanese issue.

reply to post by Vitchilo


China and the US have been politically wrestling over the Taiwan issue for decades. Both China and Taiwan are doing just fine economically speaking. Hell, they even trade between themselves in the billions. It's been that way for years.

Unless China wants to force the issue of reunification there should be no issues with maintaining the status quo.

Tibet on the other hand is an issue when one considers how China went about obtaining the territory.
Which is largely ignored.

They are however complex issues that wont just go away. There are no easy and quick solutions IMHO.

reply to post by SLAYER69


The quick and easy solution is just to continue the status quo...... Taiwanese people already enjoy democracy and Tibet was a problem before the US could do much about it during that time.

With SoKo, Japan, and Taiwan on our side China still has years and years to make up in hegemony. Taiwan will never agree to unification, Japan and China will always hate each other due to war atrocities during occupation, and Soko isn't on China's radar. Let that status quo continue...

reply to post by 11PB11


If anything the US has an interest in Taiwan and that's a US/China issue. We supported the Whites against the Reds etc....

Tibet on the other hand, we can maintain a political hands off approach but there is a whole planet out there that China can't just ignore who see it as an ongoing atrocity.

reply to post by SLAYER69

China and the US have been politically wrestling over the Taiwan issue for decades. Both China and Taiwan are doing just fine economically speaking. Hell, they even trade between themselves in the billions. It's been that way for years.

Unless China wants to force the issue of reunification there should be no issues with maintaining the status quo.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see how the US Government would handle it if a US state were to secede.??
There has been some talk from a few states..

reply to post by backinblack


I've heard that but that's just angry talk.... will never happen.


Slayer...........
What I find most disturbing about the Taiwanese issue.... Is that, (if I remember correctly) After Japan surrendered and left they occupied countries, who really thought that saying Taiwan can be given back to China(I think a British or French colony at that time) when it never belonged to them to begin with.

Taiwan lost the civil war and went to the Island.... built their own country and then China can claim it's theres and we agree to it in the agreements after the war was over.... but it never was theres.

reply to post by backinblack



Any and All States in the Union have the legal right to secede.

Talk of secession has been a part of US history since it's inception. Hell, we even fought a civil war over the issue. I'm not sure of how far back your understanding of American politics or history goes? Talk is nothing new.

With regards to the Taiwan issue. [Which is the real topic]

China was in the middle of a civil war while simultaneously attempting to badly fight off a massive Japanese invasion.

There was no real central Chinese Government at the time. The Reds and Whites put aside their issues and cooperated to fight off the Japanese. The US flew fighter and bomber missions from China. Research the Fighting Tigers. Which gave air support to both the Reds as well as the White Chinese soldiers in the fields.

Chinese Soldier Guarding American P40 Fighter Planes, Emblem of Fighting Tigers

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/edd5794d80f4.jpg[/atsimg]


We supported the Whites and the Soviets supported the Reds. Both fought the Japanese. When it was over the Soviets kept up their support. We dropped the ball and the Whites faltered.

The Whites abandoned their efforts and escaped to Taiwan. We support their version of Governance.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I know a little and actually saw a good movie about it just the other day..
Can't remember the name.

I only mention a US state seceding and what the US would do to shed light on how the Chinese react..
I just wonder if the US would react the same...

Originally posted by backinblack
I only mention a US state seceding and what the US would do to shed light on how the Chinese react..
I just wonder if the US would react the same...

The Taiwan issue is basically a difference of opinion.

China sees it as a small part of the whole, While the US somewhat stands on it being it's own entity.
Taiwan was established around the same time as the "Present day" Communist Chinese Government. How would the US react if put in a similar situation?

Well I don't know...

There were small parts of what is now Canada that supported the 13 colonies when the US was established. You don't see the US arguing with Canada over those who supported the US during it's establishment as rightfully belonging to the US do you?

It's a matter of perspective.

reply to post by SLAYER69

It's a matter of perspective.

True, Taiwan is not quite the same as a US state...

reply to post by backinblack


Now, Let me ask you a question....

What is your stance on Tibet?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Oil... oil... and yet more oil..

Why would China give a crap about some tiny little island that mostly produces even inferior plastic garbage than China does?

Oil!

taiwanreview.nat.gov.tw...

The initial target area of the Taiwan Strait exploration will cover 15,400 square kilometers or nearly 6,000 square miles on both sides of the center line between China and Taiwan. The area is west of the Tainan Basin off of southern Taiwan and east of Chazhou and Shantou in the mainland's Guangdong Province. Geophysical studies carried out there from 1998 to 2000 revealed good potential for the presence of oil reserves--an estimated 300 million barrels of crude oil.

There's some crazy international treaties that regulate how and where a country can run exploration when it involves shared borders. It used to be a country could drill a sideways well under the border and tap anothers oil reserve.. now that's a political no-no that only Russia would dare do. As of now China cannot drill for oil, even though both China and Taiwan have paid for oil exploration.

The South China Sea which has not even been explored yet it thought to have more oil than Iran or Saudi Arabia.. the downside is Taiwan, China and Japan all have claims to it.

The dispute over sovereignty involves differing interpretations of the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. China holds that because the Diaoyu Islands are small, uninhabited, and unable to sustain economic life of their own, they are therefore not entitled to generate a continental shelf or consequently a 200-nautical-mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Oil... oil... and yet more oil..

Why would China give a crap about some tiny little island that mostly produces even inferior plastic garbage than China does?

Oil!

Just curious.

How does a relatively recent discovery account for their preoccupation and obsession going back 40 or 50 years previous to the possible oil reserves discovery factor into this?

Meanwhile, economic rumblings increase in China. It's going to be an interesting year with food and commodity prices headed up, plus a 30% hike to the prices of Chinese goods in the US, among other things.

From China's Runaway Chariot:

China's economy appears to have reached a critical threshold of complexity and obscurity that renders it uncontrollable. Recent reports of surging bank loans, real estate speculation, industrial growth and inflation triggered a sharp decline in the Shanghai stock index yesterday.

A recent comparison of food prices in Boston and Beijing found that China is now more expensive than the US.

Though the first link states that the average urban wage in China is about $3,000 a year, my sources in China report that a college-educated worker makes about $6,000 a year--about one-eighth the average U.S. income of $49,777. A mid-level manager might make $12,000 a year--an excellent salary in China.

Food eats up (sorry) about 40% of the average household budget in China, roughly in line with the percentage U.S. households devote to housing/mortgages. As I have noted here before, it's not the absolute percentage rise in essentials such as food and energy that matters, it's the relative impact on lower-income households that matters.

A 10% rise in food prices in a household that spends 10% on food (a typical upper-middle class U.S. household) results in a "statistical noise" 1% increase in the family budget. In a family budget with 40% devoted to food, a 10% increase in food meaningfully crimps household spending. A doubling of food prices would be catastrophic.

See also:
Chinese Silver Demand Surges Fourfold in Just One Year

Shanghai To Hike Minimum Wage By 10%

reply to post by silent thunder




Good find.

As their products become more pricey other products both domestic and from other countries will be able to compete better and on a level playing field.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I'm hoping for a US manufacturing renaissance. Or even a simple significant uptick would be good news for a change. It will probably take a little while.

reply to post by SLAYER69

How does a relatively recent discovery account for their preoccupation and obsession going back 40 or 50 years previous to the possible oil reserves discovery factor into this?

Before China was a Nationalist country just hell bent on dominating as much as they can.. they were far more militaristic..

Since the fall of the Cold War, countries are far less Nationalist and far more open to international negotiation and so forth.. so why does China still have a gripe over Taiwan?

The other effect was that China, being Communist, did not favor the idea of the US having a major island so close to China's mainland to launch an attack.. which is the only reason the US helps Taiwan, the oil, though a pleasure to prevent China from drilling, is minor in compared to the headache we give them by reminding them we are there.

We have Korea, Japan, Australia to the way south, but Taiwan completes the half circle that we have, an effective blockade, to launch a military strike against China. The reports of oil were as far back as the 60's though, just like they know there is oil in the South China Sea, even though no exploration has been done. It was only in the 80's, after China paid an American corp $12m to confirm the source.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Since the fall of the Cold War, countries are far less Nationalist and far more open to international negotiation and so forth.. so why does China still have a gripe over Taiwan?

My impression is that different forces within China are pulling in different directions. So we shouldn't always assume China acts in a unified, monolithic way. The military tends to take a hardline stance and they are behind the more bellicose words about Taiwan and other locations. For obvious reasons, when these issues rise to the fore, the military gains relevance and power within the Chinese government. Then you have various business circles that want more integration with the global system in general and feel militarism can only wreck things. Other players have various agendas, some narrow and some wide -- big players in SOEs, construction, local/rural elites, all want different things for different reasons. The Chinese Communist Party has its own agenda...sometimes it swings towards a more hardline stance, other times conciliatory approaches are taken...and as you pointed out in your earlier post, there are other issues like oil that muddy the waters. I think the issue is pretty complex and there is more noise and less signal than most outside observers think.

reply to post by Rockpuck


I dunno, maybe the US and China could work out some sort of hundred year deal like how Hong Kong worked out.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Maybe.. but it's a lot of oil.. give China to much power, and there is no region in Asia aside from America to stop her.. Japan? No army.. Korea? Please..

IMO, the biggest threat to the US is if China finds vast oil reserves, no just in the Straits, the South China Sea, but perhaps in their vast terrain the Chinese will shift from pure manufacturing to a post-industrial nation where their currency, backed by a massive economy coupled with the reserves of oil, could completely replace America as not only a military power but a economic power.

The Chinese Middle Class is larger than the entire American population.. and our middle class is shrinking. Their wages grow every year.. ours shrinks.. If Globalism and corporatism is about Consumption.. no one has the consumption ability like China.

So stopping them from taking more strategic resources while maintaining at the very least a proxy military presence at their front door.. Seems worth it to me. I don't think we want to be friends with the Chinese.. we might have to be, for now.. I seriously think China will be involved in the next major world war.. and when you look at the map, we have them surrounded on the East, and in the west we have nearby bases throughout the middle east now..