What freedoms are you talking about???

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posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 03:10 PM
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Hi all,

Sometimes there are threads and posts here concerning the word "freedom" that make me wonder.

Such as this thread (that the OP has mentioned, and the subsequent posts defending that notion).That kind of stuff makes me think. Are the people who defend the notion that in their countries they are free, really free??? Are people such as U.S. citizens or European citizens really free?? Is that freedom brought to them by their government? (politicians, armed forces, judicial system etc...?) By the constitution?

First lets look at the definition of freedom:

www.merriam-webster.com...


Definition of FREEDOM
1
: the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous d : ease, facility e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken f : improper familiarity g : boldness of conception or execution h : unrestricted use
2
a : a political right b : franchise, privilege
See freedom defined for English-language learners »


Let's look at the first one:


the quality or state of being free


Definition of free:


Definition of FREE
1
a : having the legal and political rights of a citizen b : enjoying civil and political liberty c : enjoying political independence or freedom from outside domination d : enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another


Do we have the legal and political rights of a citizen? Do we enjoy civil and political liberty? Do we have freedom from outside domination? (In other words: are we free do do as we please with our own lives without having stuff imposed by us by outside forces? (jobs, governments, taxes, bank(loans), other debts, rules and regulations etc..)

Go take a look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself this question.

I will be the first to admit that I am not free:
I have a job (I can't do what I want to do when I'm on the job, and if I quit, almost all of my monthly income is gone.

I have to pay income taxes, for which I can face a prison sentence if I leave them unpaid (which ultimately go to paying rent for loans the government has previously made).

I have loans to pay back.

I have a credit card.

I am subject to the laws of the country I live in (I can commit a crime without there being a victim involved, such as smoking marijuana [which I don't do, but just an example])

I can't just decide today that I'm going to leave my country and visit others for an indefinite time without consequence, and without having to request my employers to do so.

I am not free, are you???

Here's a link that should put you to really think about whether you experience freedom or not.

What if freedom is a myth?


What if freedom is a myth?

I think of the monkey born in the zoo. The poor creature has never known freedom. It is fed every day, and its offspring are sold to other zoos. The poor beast is docile in its cage and does tricks for the zookeeper.

What if we have never known freedom and have been taught to embrace our bondage, to fight for it, even to worship it. What if we accept our cage as freedom?




And here are some links from individuals who are experiencing what I consider to be true freedom. They spend their lives in different countries and move around as they please. They have more than enough passive income that they don’t have to work for the rest of their lives, but they’re yet active in the business world, especially in what we call the “third world”. They have protected their assets in such a way that it’s very difficult for western world governments to find for taxation, confiscation and other such purposes.


www.sovereignman.com...

sovereignlife.com...

sovereignsociety.com...

www.wisebread.com...

whiskeyandgunpowder.com...

How To Ditch Your 9-to-5 Job Once and For All

Last, but not least: here is a video and some articles that make it clear to me that there is no freedom in the western world like we pretend it to be.

The video has already been posted on ATS, but it doesn’t hurt to do so again.

The American Dream Film


Policing for Profit - The Abuse of Civil Asset Forfeiture



Now for the articles:

When Will They Figure It Out?
by Butler Shaffer


Government-created climate of fear
By Glenn Greenwald



edit on 19-1-2011 by TheBandit795 because: (no reason given)
edit on 19-1-2011 by TheBandit795 because: Posted more links and made corrections


P.S.: I've completely forgotten this thread I authored months ago: How to Be Free: Harry Browne's Freedom Principles
edit on 20-1-2011 by TheBandit795 because: Posted the link to my earlier thread



+16 more 
posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 03:22 PM
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Interesting stuff.


Originally posted by TheBandit795
I have a job

You are free to quit your job if you wish.
If you are homeless because of it, it is your free choice that picked to be homeless.

I have to pay income taxes,

If you wish to have the perks of a society (food, medicine, clothing, ambulance, fire trucks, roads) then you have to pay for them. Income tax does that. If you don't want these perks then go off the grid and live off the land in the outback of Australia or Alaska or something.

I have loans to pay back.

You were free not to take out loans. But since you did take them out, then you must pay them back or you are a thief.

I have a credit card.

again .. your choice to have one.

I am subject to the laws of the country I live in

again .. your choice to obey or not. But suffer the consequences if you decide not to.
In an ordered and safe society, there must be laws to protect everyone, including you.

I can't just decide today that I'm going to leave my country and visit others for an indefinite time without consequence, and without having to request my employers to do so.

You are free to leave your employment anytime you wish.
When you agree to work, you agree to abide by rules.
The employer must be able to depend on you.

am not free, are you???

Seriously though ... you won't be totally free until you are dead.
But then again - even then more powerful spirits will be in control.
So I suppose you wont' be totally free then either.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Ah yes. What IS freedom?

...My best answer - comes from a serial dream I had in my late teens or early 20's. It went on for months. Every night this wolf came to me but never communicated, although he made it clear he had something to say when I was ready to listen. Finally, when I was paying full attention, he spoke. "Freedom is the ability to choose your own responsibilities." And that was it. He never came back.

...I went on to avoid responsibility and obligations like the plague, taking responsibility for myself and my own actions, but not much else. I avoided debt and commitment, and embraced only work, and the joy it gave me. Then, I had a child. Willingly. And took on the responsibility willingly. And was really, really glad that I'd had such a good time before that because I would have felt totally ripped off otherwise.



You make valid points. What we're told is freedom is actually pure illusion. But I'm still really glad I grew up in the US and Canada because I'm fairly certain I would have died quite young in most other countries, shot dead on the street for being myself and speaking my mind.

edit on 19/1/11 by soficrow because: add reply to



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


I'm sorry to say, but the word freedom used by politicians is just a rhetoric. I was surprised that so many succumbed to such an obvious political deceitful slogan.

Politicians set the definition of freedom in political context, that should say enough about how deceitful those deceitful politicians can deceitfully get.


    - Deception rules Democracy. Democracy becomes a dictatorship when people are easily deceived over and over again. In that sense America is a dictatorship, it is not free, it surely isn't free to choose in a honest manner.

    - US patriotic law is described as a Nazi law by ex-CIA official, because it allows the breach of human rights, the breach of privacy, the breach of the American constitution etc.. The Nazi Germans used similar attacks as 9/11 to justify their fascism, the population didn't object then, and it won't object now.


There is no freedom, there is only deception. The deceitful political characteristics of the West is inherited from Nazi Germany, just listen to Hitler himself:
"By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise. "
- Hitler -
edit on 19-1-2011 by reatarded because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 



Originally posted by FlyersFan
Interesting stuff.


Thanks, FF..




You are free to quit your job if you wish.
If you are homeless because of it, it is your free choice that picked to be homeless.


True... That's I have investments in place and am subscribed to some investment newsletters that will help me get to the point where I don't need a job anymore, but will have enough investments to sustain me financially. It's a process, but it's one of my biggest goals.



If you wish to have the perks of a society (food, medicine, clothing, ambulance, fire trucks, roads) then you have to pay for them. Income tax does that. If you don't want these perks then go off the grid and live off the land in the outback of Australia or Alaska or something.


I don't think income taxes is needed for that. The United States functioned properly enough in more than half of it's existence without the need for income taxation.




You were free not to take out loans. But since you did take them out, then you must pay them back or you are a thief.


College loans and another, but I am in the process of paying them back, and when I'm done, I hope not to have to take another loan again for as long as I live.



again .. your choice to have one.


Will be replaced by a debit card in the future.



again .. your choice to obey or not. But suffer the consequences if you decide not to.
In an ordered and safe society, there must be laws to protect everyone, including you.


Of course, I obey them. But when the day comes that the laws are too intrusive, what should I do? Some countries, such as the U.S. (see my last video) already has laws like that. Or the Netherlands, where you are forced to ID yourself on the street when asked by authorities.



You are free to leave your employment anytime you wish.
When you agree to work, you agree to abide by rules.
The employer must be able to depend on you.


Already replied above.



Seriously though ... you won't be totally free until you are dead.
But then again - even then more powerful spirits will be in control.
So I suppose you wont' be totally free then either.


That's up to interpretation and personal belief. Personally, based on my OOBE's, that of others and of the NDE's that I've read, I believe there is a level of freedom in the afterlife to be experienced that is way beyond anything we can imagine in this lifetime. But that's just my belief, and another topic.
edit on 19-1-2011 by TheBandit795 because: posted the "reply to" link


P.S: I've starred all of you. Very good posts
edit on 19-1-2011 by TheBandit795 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 04:32 PM
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I just finished watching a documentary called "Kimjongillia". It was about North Korea. Those who escaped North Korea with their lives intact spoke about the life they lived in North Korea. My family escaped a similar hell in 1988, though their stories are 10 times worse. What freedom would they talk about?

Let's get something straight. There is no such thing on this earth as "freedom" (as hypothesized by many). The word freedom to us is like the word "infinity" or "perfection". We have these words and we have the idea of what they are supposed to represent, but they are unattainable by us. Even if you free yourself from the control of others, of debt and responsibilities, you are still inside a decaying human body which holds you slave to it's needs. You still need to eat, drink, go to the bathroom and continue maintenance on your body if you want to be free of pain and misery. Forget trying to achieve the ultimate freedom in a world where things corrode. It won't happen in our lifetimes, if ever. Everyone and everything on this planet will have a different definition of freedom.

What is freedom to the North Koreans? It is to be able to eat three meals a day, to feel no fear of being shot dead for lining their floors with newspaper which contains Kim Jong Il's face? Maybe it's freedom to travel outside the borders of North Korea without fearing for their lives. Maybe it's being able to take a break from work, or not have to work in a gulag, or not watch their children starve to death because there isn't enough food to go around.
What's freedom to me? Freedom is what I'm experiencing right now as I type this message. Nobody is coming to arrest me for expressing my opinions. I guess you'd have to live under a totalitarian regime, cut off from the rest of the world to be able to appreciate the "freedom" that this country allows us to enjoy.


+7 more 
posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 





If you wish to have the perks of a society (food, medicine, clothing, ambulance, fire trucks, roads) then you have to pay for them. Income tax does that. If you don't want these perks then go off the grid and live off the land in the outback of Australia or Alaska or something.


NO INCOME TAX DOES NOT PAY FOR ANY OF THAT!!! Income tax pays the interest on the debt period it does not pay for a single good or service. It all goes to bankers who are stealing our wealth. Please educate yourself and look up the "Grace Commission Report". and stop repeating this lie!



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Everyone and everything on this planet will have a different definition of freedom.


When i speak of freedom, i can feel it inside me, welling up never to be released.
Its something mostly that i can never truly express, mostly because i have never truly experienced it.
Even though i have lived my life without ever having a bank account, ever owning a car, or a home to call my own, and even though i work like a dog for the little earnings i make i learned early that my "freedoms" come at a cost and as unintended as those cost are they are my burden to bear for the choices i have made, i can only hope that i can stay true to my beleifs in the coming months and years.
My greatest burden is the knowlegde that, in the pursuit of what i consider life, liberty and happiness, i have caused a wake of woes, my greatest being those of the great woman who birthed me into this world, taught me all the right reasons in my youth to be rebelious, made sure i knew about our history and our future and now wishes me to ignore it all so that i can be "normal" and well integrated in society.
Perhaps true freedom for me, lay in her happiness....
Perhaps true freedom for us all, lies in the happiness of others



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 10:24 PM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Freedom is this..

Just for being born every human being would recieve... A independent/abundant energy source,
shelter, and a food synthesizer. Provided of course by your loving society. Free to create a life out of passion and creativity... Instead of turning yourself into a robot just so you can eat and enjoy the little spare you have in between responsibilities. Think how long life would be if you truly owned every second of it. Oh also I think we should work on cryogenic sleep chambers so we dont loose life time while were sleeping anymore. I mean, a third, what a waste.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 10:35 PM
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Originally posted by RadicalRebel

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Everyone and everything on this planet will have a different definition of freedom.


When i speak of freedom, i can feel it inside me, welling up never to be released.
Its something mostly that i can never truly express, mostly because i have never truly experienced it.
Even though i have lived my life without ever having a bank account, ever owning a car, or a home to call my own, and even though i work like a dog for the little earnings i make i learned early that my "freedoms" come at a cost and as unintended as those cost are they are my burden to bear for the choices i have made, i can only hope that i can stay true to my beleifs in the coming months and years.
My greatest burden is the knowlegde that, in the pursuit of what i consider life, liberty and happiness, i have caused a wake of woes, my greatest being those of the great woman who birthed me into this world, taught me all the right reasons in my youth to be rebelious, made sure i knew about our history and our future and now wishes me to ignore it all so that i can be "normal" and well integrated in society.
Perhaps true freedom for me, lay in her happiness....
Perhaps true freedom for us all, lies in the happiness of others


You put it quite nicely. Freedom is something we aspire to, and one reason this world is so screwed up is because all we ever do is fight for our freedom. We fight each other for it. Some people want it more than others, and some will do literally ANYTHING to get it. They will steal, cheat, kill to get it. What is freedom to most people? The ability to be able to do anything you want! What's one way of being able to do anything you want? If you have a lot of money, you are free to travel, free to eat anything anywhere you want, free to pay people off if you feel like participating in a little bit of illegal activity. You can pay people to change laws for you, to ignore your faults, so on and so forth. Money = freedom to many people. The other way to gain freedom is to terrorize everyone else around you into submission... until they do anything you want them to. At that point you are free to do anything you want, because you are the one in power and nobody can tell you what to do. There are those who are good, who will not sacrifice other people in order to feel more free, but those who would do anything for it,... those are the ones who destroy lives left and right. Funny how the desire for freedom is actually the reason behind so much of our suffering.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 10:42 PM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Very well written and reasoned thought TB ...

Here's the thing though, in the words of Ram Dass: “If you think you're free, there's no escape possible.”

The greatest obstacle to freedom is borne of the mind itself, which is rather problematic ... for any belief that the relativistic concept of freedom, or for that matter any other concept, has any real meaning is in itself self imprisonment. Simply, one can not use the thing they are bound to to free their self. Fact is, but for these mental abstracts and externalizations, we are all already free by nature. We as humans seem to always seek what we already have ... and as long as we do, the result will always be simultaneously funny and tragic, most of all completely unnecessary.




posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
Hi all,

Sometimes there are threads and posts here concerning the word "freedom" that make me wonder.


You should do more than wonder, although this is a positive sign.

No society on planet earth offers and legitimate or genuine freedom to any of it's citizen-slaves. Societies are actually stripping you of your freedom.


Are the people who defend the notion that in their countries they are free, really free??? Are people such as U.S. citizens or European citizens really free??


The definitive answer is no. They are not free, and they are scared of both being free and admitting that they are not free. There exists in some, not most, but some, residual instinct for freedom. I think you are one of these people.


Is that freedom brought to them by their government? (politicians, armed forces, judicial system etc...?) By the constitution?

Government is a ruling body of society that has the destruction of your freedom, sanity and Self-Love as it's top priority.


First lets look at the definition of freedom:


Sigh. No, no, no. This is a SOCIETAL definition of freedom. You cannot use it to test if SOCIETY offers you freedom. The meaning of words in all societally-approved publications have been carefully constructed to conceal Truth. You cannot use them if you want the Truth. See My website's dictionary essay for more on this subject.



Definition of free:

Definition of FREE
1
a : having the legal and political rights of a citizen b : enjoying civil and political liberty c : enjoying political independence or freedom from outside domination d : enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another

Do we have the legal and political rights of a citizen? Do we enjoy civil and political liberty?


Doesn't matter! Thats not a Truth-based definition of freedom.


Do we have freedom from outside domination? (In other words: are we free do do as we please with our own lives without having stuff imposed by us by outside forces? (jobs, governments, taxes, bank(loans), other debts, rules and regulations etc..)


Of course you are not. You are not free. You have no freedom from the outside domination your society itself has on you and the insane rules and behavioural dictates it imposes on you. Your ability to live a life 100% based in Truth in destroyed by your society.

Most importantly, you have no freedom from the endless stream of myths and lies society uses to brainwash you with, unless you are a top-level intellectual Superior as I am.


I will be the first to admit that I am not free:

This is an impressive revelation of Truth. But in order for it to be 100% legit, you must ensure you say this knowing the Truth-based definition of freedom. I am not saying you do or do not understand what freedom is, and if you have the courage and insight to recognize that you are not free I congratulate you.

Are you referring to mere physical freedom? Mental freedom? Emotional freedom?

edit on 19-1-2011 by SeerTravisTruman because: Clarification on freedom



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 11:28 PM
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"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose"

Kris Kristofferson: "Me & Bobby McGee"



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

I am subject to the laws of the country I live in

again .. your choice to obey or not. But suffer the consequences if you decide not to.
In an ordered and safe society, there must be laws to protect everyone, including you.


Sorry, just couldn't pass this one up.

According to FlyersFan, the citizens of North Korea have freedom because they are free to break the laws imposed upon them.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 11:53 PM
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We are all free. Anyone who claims otherwise is absolutely wrong. Yes I can see you getting red in the face right now at the totality of my claims, but it is true. You are free to do what you choose to do, period. If we were not free then how could we be judged by anyone? You are the product of your choices.

Now I fully understand that at any given time everyone is under some sort of authority which dictates what is allowed and punished in any given region of the world yes, but these constraints impose penalties to the choices that you make. If you could be made un-free, that is unable to make choices, then there would be no need for any form of government, or any written laws, or any form of law enforcement. But all these methods of control exist precisely because you and I have this thing called free will and the ability to make our own choices. So, you are created free, as we all are.

Do not attempt to let them tell you or convince you that you are not free and merely a slave to the powers at be because then you begin to lose the only true freedom that you have and that is your ability to choose. The conspiracy is not in what the law allows you to do, but the lie that you are being told that you have no choice in what you do.

It is the acceptance of the idea that you are only a slave is what primarily enables the physical possibility of slavery to become true.
edit on 19-1-2011 by Hot_Wings because: grammer



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 12:04 AM
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In this reality there will never be absolute freedom in any form and if you believe that you've experienced a form of absolute freedom trace backwards in time and you will realize that what you believed was absolutely free was not. on the flip side there will never be absolute suppression either and if you believe that you've experienced a form of absolute suppression again trace backwards in time and you will realize that what you believed was absolute suppression was not. Much of this may appear to be a frame of mind but in reality all of it leads back to a singular moment.

This is the duality of reality and can be applied to all. If you ever believe otherwise look closer... or don't. My opinion is to aim for the middle... you have the freedom to do so


Everything is a left right paradox.
edit on 20-1-2011 by AeonStorm because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


EPIC WIN OF A POST.

I watched that video and loved it. As to how it will all end up? The past provides the answer, it'll just be more violent.
edit on 20-1-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 12:26 AM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


"The quality or state of being free: "

This mean's it is earned. If you work, you are free. If you don't, your a Terrorist.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 12:44 AM
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Animals alone are free to do as they choose.

Some species of animals crave society.

Every species of animal that has some form of society has a hierarchy.

Hierarchy's are maintained with rules, usually established by violence or force. But to live in the society, the animal must abide, or face being segregated, or worse. They can challenge, but the behavior of the society will always determine what "rules" the hierarchy MUST establish, to keep the society from collapse or extinction.

We are human...but we are animals too. Some see the evolutionary problem, others do not. The society we have formed on earth, cannot be maintained without some form of hierarchy. It just can't, until EVERYONE can understand. To be truly free, we have to evolve away from animals. Currently, not everyone is ready. Not even close.

Intrusive laws aren't created for some sham of an NWO, they are created because society demanded them. Demand protection from a hierarchy that manipulated the fear. Not for power, or control. For $$. Plain and simple.
We are worse than animals in more ways than we are better than them. Good luck with the freedom fight. I'll take the matrix for now.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 12:45 AM
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I feel free. At least on a spiritual level I feel like the same bi-polar paranoid nihilist I've always been.

I definitely wish I had a 1950's life. I wish I had good role models and a pleasant childhood. I wish my 4 degrees in art and animation meant anything to any of the jobs I apply for. I wish I had a great job that paid more than enough for me to have a house and a car and a wife and a few kids. I wish I had land that that house was on. I wish I had a small farm on that land so I could feed my own family. That's what my life was supposed to be. That would be the American dream.

well I got a 1980's life. I had a dysfunctional alchoholic family. I got bullied every day in public school. The only jobs I ever get are retail hell for minimum wage with no benefits and no vacation and no sick time. Then factor in the cost of food and rent and everything going up and up and up. I never got married. I could never support a family on what I make.

So the American dream is dead. Whatever. You can't win all the time. People always say If you don't like it here go live somewhere else. You don't have to live in America if you hate it so much. They are right. I'm thinking a lot of other countries are looking real nice right about now.





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