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What freedoms are you talking about???

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posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by schrodingers dog
 


I see what you are trying to say but i'm afraid it's ludicrous in this situation, if we are to believe as you say then everyone should basically kill themselves to avoid harming others and then their corpse would probably inconvenience whatever beings were around to come across it.

When i say that freedom is being able to do whatever you like as long as you don't hurt anyone i would have thought it were obvious i was talking about direct consequences that would lead to you harming another, you know like murder, theft, rape, assault and whatever other thing you can imagine.

Point being that while your comment was funny it was unfairly taking something i said to extremes and if you have to do that to make it seem incorrect then the original argument is perfectly sound.

Reductio ad absurdum is a bad way to argue.
edit on 20-1-2011 by ImaginaryReality1984 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:11 AM
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Total freedom is something most people will never experience and probably doesn't exist at all. Freedom is not something easily measured; most people who believe they are free believe so because they are ignorant. When the mind and spirit is free, only then will you be free. The closest thing to freedom is awareness, there is a profound difference in the mindset of one who is enslaved but believes himself to be free and one who is very aware that he is a slave. I am a slave living in this world, but I am not a slave to this world. Many who believe they are free are both.

What I have wrote is short and simple, but is of high importance.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


All valid and true points, however, at least from my standpoint, There is no "choice" for people who dont want to pay for electricity or water, the board of health would come down on them and evict them quickly from the home they "own" ...
as for paying for services, surely it makes sence to pay for the services others are providing to you, why then do state and federal entities ( and in some cases city or town enties as well) demand additional payments in the form of manditory taxation when they have already taxed income, placed tariffs on consumer products, and still require payment for "owned" property.

additionally, would you consider it theft for an entity to charge and tax a person for a service they do not use or for that entity to stop delivery of that service even though it is payed for?

My issue is not with the taxes themselves, only the means with which they are enforced and collected
edit on 20-1-2011 by RadicalRebel because: additional information
edit on 20-1-2011 by RadicalRebel because: additional information



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:15 AM
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In the abundance paradigm...everyone is free - within the three Laws.

Let's get rid of money and find freedom!



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by RadicalRebel
All valid and true points, however, at least from my standpoint, There is no "choice" for people who dont want to pay for electricity or water, the board of health would come down on them and evict them quickly from the home they "own" ...


Not true, there are plenty of people who use well water and solar power. At least in the UK this is true and i know it's true in the USA. It depends on the condition of your property. For example if your property stinks and is posing a health hazard to others around it then yes health departments have a duty to sort it out.


Originally posted by RadicalRebel
as for paying for services, surely it makes sence to pay for the services others are providing to you, why then do state and federal entities ( and in some cases city or town enties as well) demand additional payments in the form of manditory taxation when they have already taxed income, placed tariffs on consumer products, and still require payment for "owned" property.

additionally, would you consider it theft for an entity to charge and tax a person for a service they do not use.


It could be argued you end up paying for the thing you use the most. If you drive a lot but don't have kids then you could view it as your taxes maintaining the roads more than the schools as that is how you use the system the most.

If you paid for all things individually then the system would be drastically more complex than it already is and you would have to pay further to maintain the system that organises the payments for all the things you use. This is why having centralised taxes that pay for many different services is the most efficient way of dealing with the issue.

This is not to say that all taxes are fair, for example i think inheritance tax should be abolished as an utter disgrace. The idea you are taxed on your income, then taxed on many of the things you buy and then upon your death you are taxed for things you have already paid tax on is utterly wrong.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by Amaterasu
In the abundance paradigm...everyone is free - within the three Laws.

Let's get rid of money and find freedom!



While i enjoy the things you have written i'm afraid it is simply not possible with our current level of technology. We need some form of trade otherwise if we tried to have a free system then lots of people would lie around and do absolutely nothing at the expense of people who work all day.

I believe this could all change when we develop robots that can basically replace a human workforce, however that system will be corrupted to make more money for the people who already have money.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Amaterasu
In the abundance paradigm...everyone is free - within the three Laws.

Let's get rid of money and find freedom!



While i enjoy the things you have written i'm afraid it is simply not possible with our current level of technology. We need some form of trade otherwise if we tried to have a free system then lots of people would lie around and do absolutely nothing at the expense of people who work all day.

I believe this could all change when we develop robots that can basically replace a human workforce, however that system will be corrupted to make more money for the people who already have money.


LOL! No, there will be leaders and things that need to be done will be. Our present level of tech is FAR above what you see in the "common" world they create for us. I know we have antigravity, gravitobiology (we can cure diseases easily), and many methods of extracting energy from the sea of virtual particles.

Where are they? They are most definitely suppressed. With the interweb planetwide, and a centrat site, problems will meet solutions, and without money, the solutions will be the best, not the cheapest or most profiable.

And all it would take to eliminate the need for money is to release the free energy extraction methods for ALL of us, and the process of money having any value to us will begin.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:33 AM
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I think my definition of freedom is something like this -

If I can do something and not have to think about the state scrutinizing me then I am free.


If I have to live under the constant worry that the state will scrutinize me then I am not free.

If I have to think twice about performing an action because the state may scrutinize me then I am not free.

This is all within the basic laws of course. As in those actions I mention do not include stealing, killing, destruction of other's property, ETC.

So yes I / we are not free. We are not free because we are living in fear of repercussions. And I should not mention only the state. The corporations! They collect information without our consent and everything I do on the internet I must make sure that I do not post such information! I prefer that I am not in every database in Africa. I prefer that they don't watch me to know my buying patterns. I prefer that they don't know what my next purchase will be. But they do.
edit on 20-1-2011 by fordrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Im a a Canadian, and we are free. Relatively speaking.

Complete freedom would be anarchy, and we all know how well that is working in Somalia.

We need certain rules and laws to live at the levels of comfort we do today. Ill glad live under the rule of law if it prevents people from killing and murdering my wife or family. After all, complete freedom would allow people to do such things without the penalty of law, would it not?

The same people who complain of lack of freedoms also complain of too much freedom for banks and want stricter controls on them. Do people really think these things through when they demand freedom to do ANYTHING they want?
edit on 20-1-2011 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


I've posted this in the OP as well:

I've completely forgotten this thread I authored months ago: How to Be Free: Harry Browne's Freedom Principles



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by nightbringr
 


As long as the government is limited and small, I'm okay with it. I'm not for anarchy, but I am definitely not in support of a centralized, bureaucratic, bloated government, which apparently exists in lots of countries right now.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by Amaterasu
LOL! No, there will be leaders and things that need to be done will be. Our present level of tech is FAR above what you see in the "common" world they create for us. I know we have antigravity, gravitobiology (we can cure diseases easily), and many methods of extracting energy from the sea of virtual particles.

Where are they? They are most definitely suppressed. With the interweb planetwide, and a centrat site, problems will meet solutions, and without money, the solutions will be the best, not the cheapest or most profiable.

And all it would take to eliminate the need for money is to release the free energy extraction methods for ALL of us, and the process of money having any value to us will begin.


Yes we can all dream things up and say they can fix the world but you have no proof that this technology exists and therefore we must try and deal with the worlds situations using what we have and know. Even if these things existed then as you say they are suppressed and so our best strategy is to fix the world as best we can now. Dreaming is all well and good but while you stew over the fact that technologies are hidden, people are dying, others are starving and still more are simply unhappy.

Your stories are fun but they offer nothing more than entertainment at this point.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by nightbringr
 


As long as the government is limited and small, I'm okay with it. I'm not for anarchy, but I am definitely not in support of a centralized, bureaucratic, bloated government, which apparently exists in lots of countries right now.



But then you are for capitalism then? There has to be something to keep corporations in check! I would like a small government too, but when corporations start spying on you as they do today then who will be there to stop it?



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by nightbringr
 


As long as the government is limited and small, I'm okay with it. I'm not for anarchy, but I am definitely not in support of a centralized, bureaucratic, bloated government, which apparently exists in lots of countries right now.



Centralised power has always existed because it is the most efficient form of governing an entire country. If you try and distribute the power among smaller institutions under the heading of a single country then those institutions end up going rogue and splitting from the whole, you have civil war and everything goes wrong.

Centralised government can be quite efficient but it depends upon the populous to keep it that way by removing corrupt officials and ensuring laws are kept up to date to punish corrupt people when they are caught. The problem we have in many countries is not the government, it is the people who let the government walk all over their rights and drain their resources.

For every one of the people who stands up and says no there are a hundred who quitely go about their business, for every person who writes a letter to their representative there are a thousand who grumble and moan online but never do anything other than that.

The sad thing is that everyone knows this to be true and you will often hear them complain about this very thing while missing the irony that they are one of those people! It drives me slightly nuts sometimes.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


Have you read Secrets of Antigravity Propulsion? Or Bearden's Gravitobiology? Did you read my description of recently recalled memories and that my father was an aerospace engineer who was telling me how cars and houses would float (electrogravitics) and there would be free energy - but then he came home and told me it was a secret "for now..." That was over 50 years ago.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yeah, baby, we have more than you seem to suggest. And to piddle around with ancient tech and claim that because we don't know about it in the public sector we must struggle is...counter-productive? Or just poor reasoning? Something like that, eh?



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by Amaterasu
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


Have you read Secrets of Antigravity Propulsion? Or Bearden's Gravitobiology? Did you read my description of recently recalled memories and that my father was an aerospace engineer who was telling me how cars and houses would float (electrogravitics) and there would be free energy - but then he came home and told me it was a secret "for now..." That was over 50 years ago.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yeah, baby, we have more than you seem to suggest. And to piddle around with ancient tech and claim that because we don't know about it in the public sector we must struggle is...counter-productive? Or just poor reasoning? Something like that, eh?


Basically you have no evidence and maybe your dad was winding you up, or maybe he was telling stories to make you happy, or maybe you are simply remembering incorrectly. Have you read about false memories? We all have them and i mean everyone without exception has them.

Yes your thinking is counter productive because it will never lead to anything and actually stops us doing things now with what we have. Let us assume you are 100% correct and they have all of this amazing tech you speak of, well you whining about it won't ever get it released, the entire world could ask for it and they would deny they have it.

So once again, your thinking offers us nothing, whereas trying to solve the problems of the world with what we have is a far more sensible approach because it improves the lives of those who exist now.

Please tell me what you comlaining and whining and telling us all of this actually does? What will it ever lead to? Will it ever get the technology released? Of course not, i am glad you have told everyone, information is good but now you have told everyone we must deal with reality.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by nightbringr
 


As long as the government is limited and small, I'm okay with it. I'm not for anarchy, but I am definitely not in support of a centralized, bureaucratic, bloated government, which apparently exists in lots of countries right now.



I agree 100%. But in your OP, you are railing against ALL kinds of government control and laws, making the point that even simple laws violate our freedom. Any democracies are a bloated government. The most efficient form of government after all is a dictatorship. One man, his rules.

Yet dictatorships tell to allow even LESS freedoms that democracies.

Even in Canada which i consider very "free", we have many of the restrictions you talk about in place. Ill take them, thank you very much. Most of them are helpful and make our lives easier and safer.

I propose rather than raging against all forms law and order in general you tell us what you would do to make your perfect society.
edit on 20-1-2011 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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Ok ok, I see your point.

But what would you rather have people say? " I'm not REALLY free because I have obligations and responsibilities that dictate my time and energy?" So what exactly are we trying to get at here?

To me it just seems like we're arguing semantics.

But for those of you who believe you're truly free, you're never entirely free until you're dead. If you're reading this, you may be free-er than others, depending on your location, but if we're talking about where your time/energy/finances willingly are spent......true, there isnt much of an option if you'd like to live comfortably amongst society.

In my opinion, the idea of freedom is THAT exactly, an idea. And regardless of what CHOICES we make, in the end they were CHOICES. In my country, no one is holding a gun to my head to make me do things...,,.,.yet anyways



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


wow, thats great...so i am free to drink and bathe from polluted ground water and pay exorbitant amounts of money to install solar cells which in fact in most cases is only a suplimental energy source.
While efficient solar or wind energy sources are becoming more viable for the private consumers they are far from the independant energy source many are looking for.

As for my paying taxes to the local and state entities for maitainance on a variety of puplic works, my feelings are not the same in reguards to the higher cost of federal taxes which do not support communities but rather, are funneled into ongoing wars, wasteful and overpriced government spending, and already full pockets...

@ Amaterasu
as for alternative energies, what are the chances that the research and development of projects like this,

thethunderbird.ca...

or this,

www.hydrogenenergycenter.org...

will ever being viable enough to reduce the need for a labor force or monetary system...?

and then there is always Cern to concider,
do you think that any results of these experiments in creating a sustainable, renewable energy source will ever be free?



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by fordrew
 


IMO our economy is not based on capitalism, but on corporatism. Plus large corporations and big government go hand in hand it seems...





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