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The Two Most Powerful Disinfo Tactics Used on ATS

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posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by The Sword
 


He complains about Ad Hom attacks and Straw Man arguments while using the same tactics himself. Me thinks this is jjust a thread to try and stamp his feet over being "defeated" in a debate.

I've tussled with him before and, I can tell you, logic and reason are not high on his agenda. Furthering his viewpoint no matter what counter-argument or evidence you can provide is, however.




posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 08:31 PM
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Both of these premises COULD be right...

problem is, they arent that black and white.

Ad Homs-just because someone dicredits a poster and not the post does not make it a 'disinfo' tactic outright. There is such a thing a credibility. If someone proves themselves to be a liar, or ignorant, or any of a number of things over a period of time, then those things are VERY relevant when said poster brings up something. Do you not consider the CREDIBILITY of our politicians when looking at them, or do you just look at their most recent doings? Is our justice system not hinged totally on credibility?

Trolling-Plenty of trolling goes on around here, and i think it is often unintentional. Baiting is trolling, like in the thread were I said you were borderline trolling. Doesnt mean you intentionally did it. But its the same nonetheless. You are entitled to your opinion, but when that opinion attacks something, dont be surprised when you get that type of response, as it is a form of trolling.

I also have to point out the irony in this thread-you call out these so called tactics, damning them as nefarious, and then proceed to call every response here 'strawman'....someone else already said it, but .....pot....kettle....black???



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash
You are not dignifying this debate very much sir/ma'am.


Au contrair, mon ami. I am trying to get some academia into this statement of yours to give it credence. If anything I'm trying to help you dignify your stance here.


Originally posted by muzzleflash
Let's see, what can I use as proof of "people unintentionally saying "troll" due to habit", may I present as evidence every video chat page on YouTube for your review?


I've never seen the word troll on any of my YouTube video chat pages - so "every" is an oversight here.


Originally posted by muzzleflash
It it crawling with evidence that it is a social norm to use this derogatory terminology.


Whilst I am trying to assist you I am not going and finding the claims you need to back up your opinion. That's part of forming an idea and being able to support it. Your job, not mine.


Originally posted by muzzleflash
Troll is just another name to call people you don't like.
No different than a cuss word...


Interesting. You are now having an attempt at controlling language. I believe a troll is a beast who lives under a bridge and eats goats. Now whilst that could be construed as an insult by some others would enjoy being out of the weather and eating fresh meat and would consider it a compliment.


Originally posted by muzzleflash
It is a clear cut case of unintentional ad hominem.




-m0r



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 08:48 PM
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It's probably never safe on ATS to trust the source 100%. Threads are started generally either to enlighten or inform if the OP has knowledge to share. They can also be started to ask a question, troll for a response, or take a poll. Often the threads get hijacked or humped like a train so that the reasoning branches.

Who are we to say what a problem post is, or what constitutes malevolent deception? I could do without threads that are written strictly to elicit wet noodle emotional responses but that is an art form in itself. We aren't Clarence Thomas trying out for the supreme court here on ATS, so if you get caught by a troller once in a while whats the harm?



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash

Nope. You are making another Straw man here.

You need to judge each claim individually and investigate it yourself, that's common sense.

If you are aware of what a logical fallacy is, and why it's silly to employ them in your thinking, than you should be able to easily understand the point I am trying to make.

A conspiracy about the # of cornflakes is irrational, and easily debated with simple arguments of logic. You have no excuse to stoop to the low gutter of ad hominem attacks to win these things. It is a hollow and shallow triumph, meaningless...a Pyrrhic Victory.

You can easily show the cornflake mathematician the error of his obsessive compulsive ways, and we can direct him to some places to get the help he needs. Calling him or her names will only make the situation worse, and is not good for anyone.



Come on man! Every response to every persons counter-argument to you in this thread has been you starting with "straw man" or "ad hominem"! lmao That's ridiculous. If somebody is purposely making an attempt to be anti-logical, I am not required to respond with an answer that is anything more than insulting. It's not ad hominem if I call someone a troll. I only use the word troll when I notice someone deliberately trying to offend and bait others. Calling somebody a name, who is not actually obsessive or insane in the first place--- but rather knows they are making irrational/offending statement for mere amusement---IS common sense. If someone truly believes in a conspiracy, I will work towards a intelligent/logical approach. It has nothing to do with me using logical fallacies. In fact, my logic is that your logic, that my logic is a fallacy, is a logical fallacy in itself. Lets play mind games. You fool!



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by badw0lf

Originally posted by muzzleflash
"You are Trolling" = Ad Hominem logical fallacy.

"There isn't a Conspiracy in Everything" = Straw Man logical fallacy.

Now you know. Don't use those anymore.


Ahha. So the obvious conclusion to ATS is to just say "Oh yeah, you're right" and spend the rest of your life wondering just why there was only 504 cornflakes in that packet instead of 505.

Gotya.

I think I'll stick to things that actually matter, and continue to be of the opinion that people who think there is a coRNspiracy in everything, really need to have a break.



So you post an Ad Hominem attack attempting to say I have obsessive compulsive disorder?

Did you not even read the links? Let me guess...


Is this a trick? Are you trying to trap me?

Obsessive Compulsive? Lmao

Is there NOT a conspiracy in everything? Why then, is there not one in the most mundane things. You said it yourslef, we're not allowed to discredit such concepts.

Perhaps I should have used a more subtle example.

but nonetheless, the point stands - either there is a conspiracy in everything, which means you never stop worrying about things, or you put common sense to work and understand the things that warrant concern.

And no, this does not mean just adding the words Chemtrail, LHC, HAARP, NWO, Disinfo, etc into an OPINION makes it a valid conspiracy.

Sometimes wild imaginations need to be tempered with actual logic, and not entertained by all and sundry to allow the extension of this opinion into reality where others are drawn in, with their own inclusive opinions to make a further and more absurd claim.

A: There are pink unicorns on the moon, prove there isnt.

B: Why there might be, I heard there are greys there too, perhaps they keep them!

C: hey, I heard there are pink unicorns on the moon, is it true the greys keep them?

D: I saw a picture of the moon and a crater looked like it had a camp fire light in it - could this be the greys and where they keep the pink unicorns??

E: PROOF that greys live on the moon, look - Camp fires, Pink Unicorns, Only a disinfo agent says otherwise.

AD INFINITUM
edit on 16/1/2011 by badw0lf because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by TheBigO
Be careful the thread might get 404'd. The true trolls are the *alert the mod* crowd if they disagree, who have the mentality that anything they dislike needs to be shut up, shut down, silenced, and taboo. Seems like tyranny to me.


banned and returned eh? Or just so wise in the ways of Mods and their nefarious manners for someone less than a month old that wonders will never cease..

hrmmm..



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
Quite simply put, there are many types and levels of trolling. A troll typically posts inflammatory, off-topic, nonsensical, or baiting statements, not necessarily ad-hom attacks.

ATS even has a warning flag entitled Political Trollling for that particular type. But as someone said, trolling has been covered ad naus n ATS...not that reminders aren't good every once in a while.


I never said trolls post ad hominem attacks.

I said calling someone a troll is ad hominem.

You need a compelling argument to prove someone is something.
Just calling them that doesn't make it so.

I can call anyone anything! Does that mean I win? NO. It means I'd LOSE for sure!


And the same is true for a conspiracy. You need a compelling argument to prove to someone it is something.

Just saying it is a conspiracy doesn't make it so.

yet you deny this in your OP.




posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 





If there isn't a conspiracy in everything, that means there are no conspiracies at all.


2-1=0



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 



You have a right to think incorrectly.


That is your entire problem , right there . Anyone who thinks different than you is thinking "incorrectly" and therefore must be a troll or disinfo agent . Geezus .



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 01:28 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


I enjoy all your threads muzz, thanks for the heads up. All the real, die hard atser's don't have worry about debunking others threads cuz their to busy debunking themselves.

Think for yourself, question authority.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 01:56 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


When we see disinfo in action, we should call them on it! Unfortunately some posters get into an arguement with these people and it takes the joy out of the thread. I enjoy entertaining any idea. I may not buy into the idea and adopt it, but I like to entertain the idea, to relish it, to savor it, no matter how "out there" it may seem.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 03:26 AM
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alot of trolling and disinformation going on these days. keep your wits.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by Raelsatu

I don't see how the "everything is not a conspiracy" is invalid. If you say everything has a conspiracy within it well...what if the coffee mug I'm drinking from right now is the color blue because the government is trying to brainwash me with certain colors that encourage me to drink more and more coffee, which....If i made a thread like that, you know the type of responses I'd get and deserve. And calling people a troll is something else I don't mind, if it's used the right circumstance. For example a few months ago there was a stream of people posting prediction/prophetic threads about the things to pass...which DIDN'T come to pass. Those people are in my mind, trolls. Idiots who come onto a conspiracy forum and rile others up with a bunch of bull#.


It’s not the blue cup, It’s what you put in it.

The water source, who maintains it? What chemicals are added? Is it tank water? Is it plastic or a galvanised tank ? what process was used in constructing the tank? What company’s promote the tank? Then we have the types of pipes used in your plumbing, I can even go as far as how the plumber got the job to do your house in the first place.

Then we go to the manufacture who made your coffee pot or kettle, not to mention the electrician who wired your home, did he get the job through the plumber who did you pipes?
Ok now we are onto the coffee, who imported it, who harvested it and who passed it through quarantine? Then of course there are the dock workers.

Ok so what’s next? Milk, ok is it Genetically modified? What were the cows fed, who was the farmer and what company transported it? What shop did you purchase the milk from, and while you were there did you purchase anything that you had not intended to in the first place?

Do you take sugar or Aspartame with that ?

You get the idea
edit on 17/1/11 by Whateva69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 03:58 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Also i think the ptb use mobbing on these boards, a tactic to make people feel alone.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 05:01 AM
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Originally posted by Whateva69
It’s not the blue cup, It’s what you put in it.


Whilst I'm sure we could all go off on an abstract about cognitive dissonance and trade agreements between the East and the West which made the cup cheaper to be sold in a market across the other side of the world, those who had to be re-skilled to work in the disease-ridden fields to collect the clay, the effects on local traditions and heritage the manufacturing process creates, the resulting new economy of sugary drinks, alcohol and tobacco which can now be afforded by said workers, the costs to both the shareholders and the environment for shipping said mug, the marketing team who decided on the limited colour scheme (that particular hue of blue being the chosen mug of potentially a few colours) and the best capacity for containing liquid and their motivations for selling this mug to the best market, where is gets sold and to what demographic prior to even thinking about what goes into it - there are not conspiracies everywhere.

When I see a rock, I could think about the nature of existence, how we do not know how it came to be, our best minds think it came from nothing and that is just mind boggling, there are many ideas which surround the concept of that rock, and me, existing. The rock however is not part of a conspiracy.

It could be but like all the best conspiracies - there is no proof that it is.

In fact the best conspiracies are the ones you'll never know of - like the potential for existence being a conspiracy of sorts.

The point being the humble human mind cannot conceive beyond it's own realm of existence and as such battles with itself. Nature doesn't care if you live or die, only other humans do.

Conspiracy is human by default, ergo not everything is a conspiracy unless you are a mentally unsound human.

My advise to you if you are pondering the edges of reason, find a job you enjoy, find a life partner with similar interests and relax and get fulfilment from life. Stressing is only going to bring yo umore stress and you will never get the answers to the really important things in life. Try to make your patch a little better and care for others as much as you can.

Telling others how it works as a fact is merely arrogant and selfish as you have no more of a clue to what it is all about than an amoeba.

-m0r



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 06:33 AM
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Originally posted by m0r1arty

Originally posted by Whateva69
It’s not the blue cup, It’s what you put in it.

Whilst I'm sure we could all go off on an abstract about cognitive dissonance and trade agreements between the East and the West which made the cup cheaper to be sold in a market across the other side of the world, those who had to be re-skilled to work in the disease-ridden fields to collect the clay, the effects on local traditions and heritage the manufacturing process creates, the resulting new economy of sugary drinks, alcohol and tobacco which can now be afforded by said workers, the costs to both the shareholders and the environment for shipping said mug, the marketing team who decided on the limited colour scheme (that particular hue of blue being the chosen mug of potentially a few colours) and the best capacity for containing liquid and their motivations for selling this mug to the best market, where is gets sold and to what demographic prior to even thinking about what goes into it - there are not conspiracies everywhere.

Nice you made me laugh
I’m glad you got my original joke, It’s good to laugh hey
:



When I see a rock, I could think about the nature of existence, how we do not know how it came to be, our best minds think it came from nothing and that is just mind boggling, there are many ideas which surround the concept of that rock, and me, existing. The rock however is not part of a conspiracy.It could be but like all the best conspiracies - there is no proof that it is.

wax on wax off ?



In fact the best conspiracies are the ones you'll never know of


I agree


- like the potential for existence being a conspiracy of sorts.The point being the humble human mind cannot conceive beyond it's own realm of existence and as such battles with itself. Nature doesn't care if you live or die, only other humans do.

wow ... if you read what you said really fast, you sound just like that professor in back to the future.


Conspiracy is human by default, ergo not everything is a conspiracy unless you are a mentally unsound human.

wow you take things literally.


My advise to you if you are pondering the edges of reason, find a job you enjoy, find a life partner with similar interests and relax and get fulfilment from life. Stressing is only going to bring yo umore stress and you will never get the answers to the really important things in life. Try to make your patch a little better and care for others as much as you can.

Good advice. Since your giving me advice I’ll give you some, untwist your knickers and have a laugh once in a while.
I have the a stress free life, I meditate, I dance, I joke, and enjoy my life. I take things with a grain of salt. On the other hand you sound like you need a holiday. Your coming across very high strung.



Telling others how it works as a fact is merely arrogant and selfish as you have no more of a clue to what it is all about than an amoeba.


Where on earth did I tell anyone how it works.


Wow you sound like a mean person, You should try to come across a little bit nicer.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 06:46 AM
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Originally posted by Whateva69
wow ... if you read what you said really fast, you sound just like that professor in back to the future..


He's a Doctor not a professor. But thanks! :p


wow you take things literally..


Now this is my type of humour. I do literally take written text as verbatim, call me silly.



Where on earth did I tell anyone how it works.


Wow you sound like a mean person, You should try to come across a little bit nicer.


I offer my apologise here if you think I was attacking or trying to offend you here Whateva69. I was trying to adhere to my earlier points which state the OP of this particular thread is an egomaniac and a control freak who can't take criticism or advise due to their OP. I'm sure I'd slug a beer and have a good laugh with them outside of the context of this thread.

As for being highly strung - yes I am. However it makes for excellent music when put in the right circumstances


-m0r



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


"However, logic also dictates that the trillions of dollars spent by governments to fight cyber-warfare, that there will occasionally be a agent working for a nation's, corporation's, or other political organization's agenda"


I would love to see the source of this claim . Trillions of dollars? come on troll fork up a source lol



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 09:44 AM
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To be honest with you a lot of time people with differing opinions suddenly for no reason go into you are trying to stifle me, am not, are to, am not, no your a disinfo agent! Am not, are so! It is like a playground tactic, there is no doubt in my mind that governmental organizations use Cyber warfare but the majority of time it is directed at governments not john brown handtype using his computer speaking out against the government online. But the whole did so, did not thing get's a little old after while, just agree to disagree and leave it at that.





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