Jones "Peer - Reviewed" Scientific Journal Found Credible!

reply to post by Alfie1


Well alfie if you any...one bit...one little ounce of structural undestanding....Which obviously you do not ....then you would truely understand the demostration of the boxes....Fact: If the structure is asymetrical and all parts being equal then by just dropping the top of the structure onto the lower structure the said structure WILL NOT undergo a top down progressive collapse as the supporting structure being Equal will resist the part that is falling only due to gravity...
So please Alfie when you try to use a demo ...then you should really try to understand the concept being presented.

just to clarify....for your complete and utter lack of knowledge....the pure definition of Ignorance

Help Understanding the planned Destructions of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and Debunking the Conspiracy Theory of Prof. Bazant. It is quite simple! A Structure cannot be one-way crushed-down from above by a small Piece of itself driven by Gravity

This is a bit deep for your to understand but please try

You see Alfie no animosity here ....just people who have learned and done their time through learned practice and through experience...the example that Gage was showing was done to keep it simple for those who do not understand the physics involved and the construction of steel buildings....which in the history of steel buildings...not ONE ....NOT A SINGLE ONE..has ever suffered a complete global progressive topdown collapse.

So Alfie please learn some basic things before you speak because it truely does affect the image you portray to others who actually do understand the way skyscrapers are constructed and how they suffer failure....these structures suffered ASSISTED complete failure....I will not speculate the process....but i will Through knowledge draw the conlusion they did not suffer progressive collapse due to fire or the planes striking the buildings in three instances all on the same day.

reply to post by plube

Are you seriously quoting Anders Björkman aka Heiwa?

Björkman claims that no planes hit the Twin Towers or the Pentagon or crashed near Shanksville, which makes him a rarity even among the most delusional "truthers": a quadruple no-planer.
Björkman claims that all evidence of the aircraft impacts is fake and all witness accounts are invalid. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again.
Björkman claims that if 30 stories of one of the Twin Towers was dropped on the lower 80 stories from a height of two miles, it would bounce off without damaging the lower portion. And again.
Björkman says a Tower wouldn't be destroyed if a 60-million-pound block of ice was dropped on it, then denies making that claim.
Björkman claims that all photo and video evidence showing severe fires and structural failure in the WTC buildings is fake. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again.
Björkman claims that WTC 7 was demolished by a vacuum.
Björkman believes that the authors of the NIST WTC reports don't exist.
Björkman believes that steel structures are indestructible, even by nuclear weapons. And again. And again.
However, Björkman also believes that 16,500-22,000 lbs of high explosives may have been used to demolish each Twin Tower...with no detectable detonations.
Björkman is an engineer who believes that weight = mass. No, really.
Björkman believes his house would survive an asteroid impact.
Björkman again attempts to revise the laws of physics.
Björkman says a bathroom scale will register the same weight whether you stand on it or jump on it.
Björkman says the Twin Tower fires were "minor office fires."
Björkman makes the egregiously false claim that the FDNY said it could handle the fires in the Towers.
Björkman believes that columns become stronger when their supports are removed.
Björkman believes that the structures of the Twin Towers were comparable to cheese, pizza boxes, match boxes, rubber balls, sponges, a bicycle running into a wall, a child jumping on a bed, a tower of sushi, and a tower of lemons.

I'll add links to those eventually, so sit tight. There's a hell of a lot of them.

reply to post by neformore


you know something nef...you stated the exact right thing that works completely against you....the mass of the building below far outweighs the mass of the building coming down...almost tenfold in the one tower...and there was not even one spec of top down effect in building 7...but hey....you can say these things to try and show how you are sure things are in the physical world....but the crush up effect from the lower part of each of the twin towers was far far greater than the crush down...yes the force of the top of the structure IF big If the floor magically disappear and the whole top came down the force would be equal and opposite at point of...listen NEF ... impact....but the kinetic energy would be completely used up after 20,30...maybe even 40 floors of the structure....do we see that effect...no we don't.

This article describes in layman's terms and using common sense (!) the structure of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and what happens when the alleged release of potential energy, due to downward, alleged free fall* (!) movement and alleged impact (!) of the mass above - a small top part lightweight structure (part C) - by its supporting columns when buckling, exceeds the strain energy that can be absorbed by the same columns and much bigger structure below (part A). These are the official, identical cause and effect of both destructions. The conclusion is that the official conclusions by US authorities are false! A steel composite steel structure like the WTC towers cannot crush down one-way from top down, when a small piece of the structure - upper part C - drops on the structure - intact part A from above! One reason is that the bottom part A of WTC1 is 10 times stronger than the top part C. Another reason is that gravity provides too little energy to destroy the structure. Quite basic! The USA is fooling the world.

explained very well...so please leave it to the professionals shall we

But it shows that you to are falling into the same catagory as Alfie on this one....So please by all means do not try to just make simple physics as the whole basis of your rebuttles cause i and many others will tear it to pieces...just as the bazant and zhou report has been torn to pieces by a great many professionals above the progressive collapse THEORY...and please remember it is theory...so when truthers use theories it should be recognized as such.

So i say to you NEF and ALFIE ....please go and become somewhat educated and you might learn a lot and then you might even see how people are being swindled....and if you choose not to...then you choose to live a life in denial which i would not recomend as then we would all be living a lie...and i personally choose not to live in this lie perpetrated by Evil people who use the Media to blind the truth,

reply to post by roboe


yes i am seriously quoting him and others...and i also do work for myself...so Roboe...you go and get all the stuff you can because...when peple speak out against 9/11 there is always a backlash of slander and website bashing people who speak out...and you i see are one that is fooled by it...and will follow the media...so please tell me your personal abilities before i would ever take your words to be anything true...just as i stated earlier soon as someone speaks out about the truth they get bashed and a great many fools follow the flock and just blindly jump in....so please...why not start to bash me ....cause i personally can speak for myself as a structural Engineer.....what can you speak of.
Are you also going to bash Gage.....and i should hope that you will go and bash any Architect and Engineer who speaks up against the way the buildings came down....Also Roboe.....please inform us of your credentials so that people know where your enlightening bashing may exist from so then people are well aware of whom the knowledge that your so graciously imparting upon our minds originates from so that we can assess your comments in which they are intended.

I thought just for simplicity....lets look at all the reasons that a top down collapse was not the reason in the towers when we consider the 1993 truck bombing and the potential for a bottom up collapse and yet it did not occur...but hey why the heck people would belive in a top down collapse when there was so much more potential for a bottom up collapse in this instance.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d9f5a5bedf5a.jpg[/atsimg]
now look at the photo closely....look at the beams....a bomb takes out the concrete....but low and behold...THE STEEL...still in place....suprising huh.....this is the 3rd level down out of the seven levels down right at the base of one of the towers....the entire mass of the building supported above...and yet no major global progressive collapse.....so much more potential Energy in the 110 floors above this level for the building to suffer progressive collapse.
It is getting tiring to hear the trusters use slander and personal bashing and trying to take away the integrity of people for not believing the OS....this is opinion and in many cases PROFESSIONAL opinion that is being tarnished...and there is no gain in it for a great many people...and it is more so detrimental to people who speak out...but the bravery to speak out is what gives people inspiration...and the not succumbing to the petty name calling when people still do not believe the OS.....I want to know why is is so important to try to get people to believe the OS...Is it because the OS and the backers of the OS are saints....Is it because people are blinded by the Media propaganda...Is it cause they are fearful of truth...that the countr may crumble because the real perpetrators get exposed.
when i post i post what it is in my opinion....it comes from what i understand to not be right from my understanding of structures....Not from others but i do use others work to back up my opinion...
Now back to roboe...if you are going to post slander against someone dont bother...i will save you the effort...because one only need go look at who is doing the slandering to see if it is truth...and personally i wonder what your motive would be to do such a thing...you would want us to believe all these awful things about aders....but have you even bothered to write to him YOURSELF and just ask why he thinks that way.....
Cause i just emailed all that you have posted about him and i will wait his reply.

reply to post by neformore


Your understanding of physics is sorely lacking nerformore.

As the resulting collapse continued per the explanation of the NIST then the kinetic energy would have been dissipated with each resulting collapse.
These buildings are made to withstand at the bottom levels the weight of a jetliner.

The amount of weight that was at the top of the buildings was negligent compared to any other day.

Several of the workers in the world trade center were told to stay home that day.

We are talking about gravity and kinetic energy here.

By the time the top reached the bottom all of the kinetic energy would have dissipated, unless of course somehow the bottom supporting mechanisms that hold the buildings up day in and day out somehow failed to hold the weight on this day and this day alone.

The only way that the top of the building would have enough kinetic energy to pulverize itself is if it encountered zero resistance on the way down.
Very similar to a controlled demolition.

Ask any physicist and they will tell you the exact same thing.

You cannot violate the laws of physics in order to meet your confirmation bias.
That is yet another logical fallacy....

The ad hoc hypothesis.

Originally posted by Alfie1

I am sorry but you fail on the very first point. This has been long debunked; the diagonal cuts to upright steel were made during the clean-up :-

www.debunking911.com...

Actually this has neither been proven nor dis-proven, but if you look at the pictures just after the collapse, then you will notice the obvious diagonal cuts.

Stop spreading disinformation.

reply to post by plube


Thank you for explaining this in technical terms, which were obviously aided by your education.
An education that the detractors unfortunately do not have.

I have only studied Physics I and II for my undergrad and the entire situation reeks of falsities.
And my understanding of Physics and engineering is elementary at best, but I do understand the principles of kinetic energy and entropy and that is exactly what would have happened if the supposed storyline were true.

It would be physically impossible for the tops of both buildings to have enough energy to pulverize itself after dissipating all of the its potential energy with each successive collapse.
Especially since the driving force behind the fall was nothing but GRAVITY.

I sincerely thank you for your obviously educated opinion.

Cheers mate

reply to post by plube

Both of the Twin Tower collapses exhibited remarkable symmetry. The North Tower's collapse commenced suddenly. The top of the tower seemed to effortlessly telescope down into the intact portion of the building. The collapse remained symmetrical from start to finish. The South Tower's collapse behavior was more complex. Its top first tipped for about two seconds, then started to descend. Despite the initial asymmetry of the collapse, it became more and more symmetric after the top started to fall. Once the top disappeared into the enormous dust cloud, there was no further evidence that the top had started to topple, except for a leaning anvil-shaped cloud of darker dust.
The centered collapses meant the falling mass [color=gold]followed the path of maximum resistance. That's the opposite of how we expect a structure to behave when it falls apart in any kind of natural process. Even if the towers were made out of clay, we wouldn't expect them to collapse in such a dead-centered fashion. It's all the more incredible that a steel structure would shred itself by falling into itself instead of falling over.
There are many examples of steel-framed buildings undergoing unintentional collapses as a result of [color=gold]severe earthquakes. In contrast to the destruction of the Twin Towers, no such collapses have been vertical or total -- let alone explosive. Rather, steel-framed buildings destroyed by earthquakes have toppled.

911research.wtc7.net...

Speed of Fall
The Towers' Tops Fell Virtually Unimpeded
The roofline of WTC1 (The North Tower) begins dropping with sudden onset and accelerates uniformly downward at about 64% of the acceleration of gravity (g) until it disappears into the dust. This means it is meeting resistance equal to about 36% of its weight. The implication of this, however, is that the force it is exerting on the lower section of the building is also only 36% of the weight of the falling section. This is much less than the force it would exert if it were at rest. The acceleration data thus prove that the falling top section of the building cannot be responsible for the destruction of the lower section of the building.

911research.wtc7.net...

Exactly! What we all find truly amazing is the top of the WTC concrete floors shouldn’t have been pulverized into a fine dust. Yet, we see it in all the News videos, the tops of the WTC vaporizing to dust way before it hits the 60 floors. Meaning there is not enough weight to cause the lower floors to pancake.
The rapid on set that we all witness in these videos was impossible if the building fell naturally on its own.
Experts know this, the only thing that can cause all these effects is “only by demolition,” whether if thermite was used or not. I completely agree with you and you are right on.

Your right, too many ignorant people support FOXS News and their propaganda. This is another reason people in the truth movement get discourage, because to many people are not educated enough to understand the basic science that is taught in any high school, as we see demonstrated in this thread.

reply to post by Soloist


It's not just the thermite that Dr Jones refers to (crafty one you are, Soloist)... Rather, he questions multiple holes in the OS... including, but not limited to:


- The fake 'smoking gun' confession video of Bin Laden;

- The fact that no building constructed in ways similar to the WTC7 building has EVER collapsed due to fire alone;

- The fact that the Twin Towers were designed to take multiple hits from 707's;

- The fact that squibs were seen going off - upwards - on one of the sides of WTC7;

- The fact that NO internal steel beams got any higher than 1/6th-1/3rd of the temperature necessary to melt (and thus become weak enough to collapse in the manner seen on 9-11)...

Etc, etc - ad nauseum...



In fact, Soloist - Dr Steven Jones - - doesn't even get onto the thermite issue until 42 minutes into the presentation (recorded in THIS VIDEO right here...All who are wondering whether the OS is true or not should watch this......



In the preceding 41 minutes, he addresses multiple points (some of which are outlined above) that caused him - and others like him (highly educated, well-regarded PROFESSIONAL scientists and scholars) - to be brave enough to stand up in defence of the science which shows the OS is a load of BUNK.


Only after establishing the background and showing some good indicators of conspiracy does he start to discuss the only alternative left in the face of the science - controlled demolition. How can that be achieved? He explains the actual planning, coordination and planting of explosives could have been achieved with 20 leader-politician types 'in the know', ten 'guys on the ground' actually planting the explosives, and twelve or so 'runners' who knew nothing and were taking orders about when and where to move equipment, baggage and establish cordons etc.

Here's the bit you keep ignoring, Soloist: There were multiple dust samples - NOT just the one from the sculptors apartment. STOP DISREGARDING THE FACTS OF THE MATTER....!!!!!!!

Soloist - this ATS thread, the academic paper of Dr Steven Jones, the video of his presentation, and the growing support for his work CANNOT be derailed by people who cling to falsehood. Despite your best efforts to isolate and destroy narrow selections of certain aspects of the SCIENTIFIC approach used by Dr Steven Jones - his work speaks for itself. Instead of whining and spamming a forum full of truth seekers, looking shillish by dealing in the shady, pitiful realms of SEMANTICS and WILFUL DISREGARD FOR THE FULL FACTS, you should go and organise an academic refutation if you're so convinced that the guy is full of it.

Standing on the shoulders of giants, one day we'll look back and be repulsed at the memory of those who perpetrated 9-11 (as it actually happened - not as per the fake Bin Laden debacle). Oh, and that feeling of repulsion will encompass paid debunkers/ shills. As the eyes of the people are opened, that sickening feeling is already starting to take hold. It's absolutely disgraceful that people have helped the truth of 9-11 to stay hidden for so long, in such snide, subversive and sadistic ways. None of the preceding paragraph necessarily refers to the member to whose post I am replying - only to those who are involved in the ways described.

History is written by the victors. Truth will conquer the Lies, and one day history will reflect the reality of the situation. Ultimately, our aim should be that we find a way to ensure that criminal behaviour of such magnitude (from those who 'lead' the nations) NEVER happens again.

Originally posted by OptimistPrime
reply to post by Alfie1

 

Simple-minded people need simple-minded demonstrations, after logic and science fail. Trusters act like children, so maybe the next step is for Richard Gage to dress up like Elmo and have guest musicians sing a song to try to get them to learn. Maybe some candy would help as well.

Hahaha....

truly funny OptimistPrime.

We are very handily winning this debate by sticking to fact and science.
But sometimes it is rather unfortunate that someone of Richard Gage's expertise must lower themselves to a first grade explanation of why the Official Storyline is a load of garbage.

Great reply!!

Cheers mate

reply to post by impressme


Spot on comment impressme!!

I have been trying to explain to people the fact that it is a physical impossibility for the tops of both buildings to PULVERIZE themselves because it seems to be the most simple and logical contradiction in the official storyline, but yet people still refuse to believe in the laws of FN physics.

We are winning this battle, at least here at ATS, and I can tell because the "debunkers" are resulting to their last defense.
The old ATS standard of argument ad hominem.

We want a new and impartial investigation with civilian oversight.

Repeat that over and over and over until we finally break through.
We will win this.

Do not every give up my friend.

Cheers mate

reply to post by plube

I want to know why is is so important to try to get people to believe the OS...Is it because the OS and the backers of the OS are saints....Is it because people are blinded by the Media propaganda...Is it cause they are fearful of truth...that the countr may crumble because the real perpetrators get exposed.

Never a fairer question raised. WHY do the 'trusters' simply have to trust the Official Story, when it reeks so badly of misinformation, cover-up, lies, falsification, conspiracy etc?

Anyone with an average or above IQ can be expected to see the holes in the OS, if they seek for themselves, suitably inspired by the actions of men and women of Dr Steven Jones' ilk. It just takes the courage to look past the media and political brainwashing (which we are all sadly subjected to in this day and age).

I can understand people not being satisfied with the OS. I can understand them not being satisfied with the investigations into 9-11 (as sanctioned by the Government). These people become, to some degree or other, 'truthers'. They are ridiculed by many - as part of an ongoing battle for control over the collective subconscious (or 'group') mind of the human race.

I can understand the average person being too scared to become associated with the truth movement, and to fear ridicule and ostracisation if they become interested in 'the Truth'. I can see why they'd rather watch "Britain/ America's Got Talent".

What I cannot understand is why certain people, the 'trusters', who are happy to look at all the evidence without fear (to be members of ATS for example) - with all the requisite intellect to see the holes in the OS, and to understand the nature of a false flag event - WHY do those 'trusters' feel the need to defend the wealthy and corrupt people who have perpetrated this travesty against humanity?

Oh wait - wealthy, corrupt - wealthy... corrupt... Ah. Right.

reply to post by Josephus23


Absolutely! When it come to debating the real science of the WTC there is nothing left for the debunkers to debate why? Because none of their nonsense can stand up to simple science. The debunkers know this, many are stuck in an old belief system that their government would never harm them. Obviously, they do not understand the power of greed.

Lets also look at when buildings do collapse...also please keep in mind most these building are concrete reinforced structures...and it is amazig how they remian...INTACT....even though they suffered complete failure....the top of the buildings should not have just disintegrated into piles of dust....they should have just stayed in tack and tilted off of the structure below....
the thing is just that people will not look into the facts of the matter and they will just believe the rubbish...and it is good to see more and more people speaking out and that the flow is not stopping and so many of the peole trying to stop it are getting fed up so that is a good thing...
The world is a nasty place and the more that peopleallow ourselves to just be stepped on the more that people will take advantage of us....I myself am tired of It and will speak out more and more.....It is not going to stop and hopefully one day people will stand up and be heard...because as things progress more and more people are willing to speak up...
Lets Talk Physics now shall we......the collapse would and should follow the path of least resistance...now the path of least resistance for the tops of these buildings was not...STRAIGHT DOWN....there was a huge mass of INTACT structure below......the path of least resistance would have been off to the sides of the structure...not straight down the centre as the Spire photos show....

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


History will vindicate us FlyInTheOintement. History always vindicates those who oppose the established view if their premise is based upon fact and not fantasy. Those with the cajones to literally put their lives and careers on the line in defense of truth later turn out to be the revolutionaries that literally change the course of the world and history as we know it.

Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, etc....
Never give up. Never ever give up.

I have never seen the video that you have posted and I heartily thank you for the effort that you put into your post and the video.

We must become both organized and focused on one topic and one topic only, and that topic is a new and impartial investigation into 911 with civilian oversight.
We need to stop the speculation and arguments about what happened that day because in all reality we have no idea what actually happened.

What we nee to do is focus our attention on getting a new and impartial investigation with civilian oversight.

All of these competing theories are planted by TPTB in order to divide and splinter the truth movement in order to cause dissent within the ranks.
This in turn causes us to destroy ourselves from within. yet another classic Roman battle strategy that allows them to be victorious without having to fight or look wrong in the public eye:
Divide and Conquer.

A simply sterling reply my friend.

Star and applause if I could do so.

Cheers mate

reply to post by plube




I literally LOL'd when I got to the external content you quoted there ('structure... can't be crushed by a little bit of itself... due to gravity' etc)


Well said indeed. And thanks - it's good to laugh, or else we'd just cry.

reply to post by Josephus23


Many thanks. Great to read posts from people such as yourself who are so keen to make the truth known. Little by little, step by step, moving forward and taking back the ground that was lost.

The truth will out.


Keep this and other similar threads active, and get it/ them onto the front page if possible. That activity needs to be constructive, with resources and links-a-plenty - let's fill this particular storehouse with heaps of food for thought. Link back to other ATS threads demonstrating the most damning evidence against the OS, and also those threads highlighting tactics used by coordinated debunking groups. Turn the tables if at all possible. It's harder to do it from this side of the fence, because effectively we're besieged - we aren't paid to promote our point of view, unlike some of those lurking amidst the 'trusters'.

Big thanks to all positive and active 'truthers' here on the thread, for all supportive contributions (especially all who have contributed refutations against those trying to derail and ridicule).

Plube - a special mention for the excellent resources - will be reading / watching as necessary later. OP - a fantastic thread, thanks for getting me even more keen to 'sign up' to the truth movement than I already was.

Cheers,


Fly.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


Yes well i thought it was appropriate to get that bit out there before Roboe comes back slagging everyone off...I can hardly wait till he come back and calls me namesand calls anders for his beliefs....even though they may be a bit over the top...but a lot of it is pure frustration on his part...but i eagerly await his reply to my email.