Jesus split from John the Baptist sect?

Was Jesus a schismatic from John the Baptist? In the Bible it says Jesus was baptized by John. Do you think that Jesus was originally a follower of John and then later decided to split from him and create his own sect? Baptism for the remission of sins was practiced by John before Christ's ministry so it wasn't exactly a new idea.

Do you think the writers of the New Testament changed the story a bit to make John subjective to Christ's ministry and later turn him into God in the flesh?

reply to post by TinFoilHatMan55


I'd like to see some evidence that Jesus actually existed to be honest, most of the 'Jesus story' comes from earlier cults like Mithras, as far as I'm aware there is no evidence for Jesus let alone any of his stories

Probably...not. I have not read the Bible in a LONG time (so don't bite my head off) but I do recall John being reluctant when asked to baptize Christ when really John knew that Jesus was the anointed one. John's ministry was a predecessor to Christ's ministry.

As for the schism, I don't know if you can argue that because John was the precursor to Christ. Christ's ministry could've been the continuation or further development of Christ's words. All Jews knew there would be a messiah coming, John was said to have to known Jesus was the one, right? Interestingly enough, some people did believe John the Baptist to be the one, not Christ.

reply to post by Versa


I can see that neither of the first two people on this post are versed in the bible . To the first person , if you actually read Matthew you would see that Jesus was the younger cousin of John the Baptist and God sent John to precede Jesus and prepare the way for the arrival of Christ . Jesus was promised to us as a sacrifice for remission of sin back when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son . This was after Abraham sent away Hagar and Ishmael . At that time God had a plan for Jesus whom was the Lord come down and taking on flesh and dying in the flesh .God had a plan for the Lord Jesus . He tells about it in Isaiah 53 .
For the second person; Seek and ye shall find . Seek not and ye will not find . But , soon you will see him as will the Jews . Those Jews that love him and those that have pierced him also .
The events that trouble you today are easily explained ; The Globalization of banking , resources of government of health food and Carbon tax along with the FAILING of all nations economies is the work of the Banksters or Bilderbergers . They are following along blindly fulfilling the prophecy foretold in the bible coming up to the Great Tribulation and the world government described in Revelations . This will occur whether you believe it or not .

Originally posted by TinFoilHatMan55
Was Jesus a schismatic from John the Baptist? In the Bible it says Jesus was baptized by John. Do you think that Jesus was originally a follower of John and then later decided to split from him and create his own sect? Baptism for the remission of sins was practiced by John before Christ's ministry so it wasn't exactly a new idea.

Do you think the writers of the New Testament changed the story a bit to make John subjective to Christ's ministry and later turn him into God in the flesh?

As a christian, I understand nor John the Baptist or Jesus belonged to sects, even if that was the opinion of many even untill our days. For the nature of their labor, It was unavoidable for them to have people folowing them ofently.

John, many times refused to be considered a leader of any kind. His labor was to deliver a message of God and baptize people with water as a symbol of spiritual rebirth.

Jesus came to John to get baptized not because He needed it, but to fullfil a prophecy. There is a mysterious connection between both of them that remains uncleared also for us christians, but each one had certainly a different role in our religion.

For some people this part of the Bible suggest John the Baptist and Elijah (another prophet), were the same person in different time, proposing the concept of reincarnation.

Matthew 17:11,12,13 "Jesus replied, " To be sure Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. 13. Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them of John the Baptist."

In other part of the Bible, Jesus expressed how great is His opinion about John the Baptist :

Luke 7:28-35 28. For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist;[a] but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

By the way, that also "may" suggest the existence of other prophets, "non born of women" and left us the posibility He meant another intelligent form of life.

Merry Christmas, TFHMan.

I think Jesus was a disciple of John's. I don't think there was any schism. Jesus apparently continued to preach personal repentance as the best way for Jews to align with God and achieve their temporal political objectives, like freedom from Roman rule or clientship.

Jesus' innovations were to take the Baptist's message to the belly of the beast, Jerusalem itself, and to add miracles to the sermons. John operated from a fixed, remote base, and didn't do miracles. Jesus is also clearly depicted as training a cadre of apostles, where John seems to be a one-man band. Except for Jesus' cadre, John would be another colorful anecdote of Josephus', and Jesus wouldn't even be a hypothesis.

So, I think Jesus took John's ministry up a notch, but I can't see that he changed the underlying message. Or, if he did, then it may have been after John was killed, when Jesus would have been the senior living preacher of the movement.

Of course, we are far removed from these events, with little documentation to go on. Maybe Jesus didn't exist at all, and maybe John didn't either, for that matter. Josephus wasn't a detail man, and everything we have of his we receive through interested Christian hands.

Maybe the two men existed, and there was a "private" parting of the ways that nobody knew about except them. (I am reminded of the "schism" between Jung and Freud, public enough, but Jung always spoke well of Freud, even afer Freud died... what if all we knew about the split came from Jung and his disciples?) And, as noted above, once John was dead, Jesus might have modified things however he pleased, and there would be no "schism."

A lot of things are possible. I do think that the best reason for a secular person to believe that Jesus actually existed is that John is attested by apparently unaltered Josephus. If John existed, then what Jesus is said to have done, stripped to what was seen and heard, and stripped of the various authors' religiously influenced interpretations, makes sense as "an obvious next step" and a plausible development in John's ministry.

both John who baptized, and Jesus a self appointed Teacher (Rabbi without credentials)
were (its my contention) from the Nazarene sect who were pretty similar to the Sect
at Quamrun called the Essenes.

These two individuals chose to become and live the life roles of the Drama...
which will eventually end in thebattle of the forces-of-light Vs. the sons-of-darkness


Jesus and John his cousin, did not split or fall apart... it was just their dramatic roles
that they chose to live... took different paths,
John stayed in the wilds, Jesus went to the metro area during their 'ministries'
John was beheaded, Jesus got cruicifed on a stake (the 'cross' is a pagan icon for 'Sun')



Other Links:
www.lighttrek.com...
thenazareneway.com...
en.wikipedia.org...(sect)

Originally posted by St Udio
Sect at Quamrun called the Essenes.

I think you mean "Qumran".

Qumran was part of the Essene sect

www.lighttrek.com...
www.bibleplaces.com...

Gnostic traditions have placed John the Baptist "above" Jesus (secretly of course) for centuries.

Lots of interesting lore, famous painters who depicted both figures, with a clear preference for John, etc.

John, the "Beheaded One", was (is) central to various gnostic rituals, which include drinking from a skull (the Baptist's, at least symbolically). Today, they drink from shells, supposedly, since skulls are so out of date!

JR

reply to post by Trueman


oops, an extra 'A'

i was typing/thinking from memory... but even when seeing the extra 'a' my brain did not work
thanks for being my proofreader