The Implausability of UFOs Being Alien in Nature

reply to post by jeddun


Your opinion is based on our contemporary knowledge. Imagine having a conversation with someone 500 years ago about cellphone, GPS, and CT Scans. He'd give you his version of Occam's Razor.

reply to post by jeddun


Good post but you forgot the most important one of all

6) Distances in space are massive. While it is true that there are likely other intelligent beings out there in space they might be an insurmountable distance away from us. Add to that the inherent dangers as a civilization grows in technological might (the greater the tech the greater the chance they destroy themselves) and the odds become very low that alien visitation is occurring.

UFOs are, by definition, unidentified, so it kinda bothers me when people assert that they are definitely aliens, there's just no evidence to support that.

The OP has some very good points that you ought to acknowledge, but his conclusions fail dramatically. And obviously someone not well schooled in UFO research can't simply toss away 60 years of research with a wave of his hand. It's not as if no one has ever discussed these issues. A little research on just this board alone would reveal that every one of his points has been dissected over and over again. Whole books have been written on them. And there are some serious problems. It's just that because you point out a few of these does not lead to a conclusion that all UFOs are military craft or the product of fertile imaginations.

Having said that, I, too, believe that many "UFOs" ARE military craft or the product of fertile imaginations. Although in the era of Photoshop it's difficult to tell, some of our best pictures ever are of triangular craft with navigation lights. I believe that these craft are very likely military in nature. The real question about this technology is that if it has been perfected (Remember we've seen these for decades now) what is their use if they cannot be deployed in numbers? Even the stealth airplanes, long a secret, are no longer. But let's leave the military option aside for the moment and address some other issues.

As far as fertile imaginations go I'm sure you've seen it happen in front of your eyes, too. Budd Hopkins gets on local TV. Some overweight cellulite ridden woman with no life calls in to report an abduction. Hopkins says, "Do you have any scoop marks on your thighs?" She answers in the affirmative and gets to "stay on the line" so someone can listen to her story. She gets 15 minutes of fame. I think sometimes well-meaning people can trick themselves when they think they see something that is beyond their frame of reference. We've seen so many airplanes, birds, car lights, light poles, and reflections called UFOs that it boggles the mind. Most of these people are not being intentionally deceptive. President Carter saw the planet Venus (right time, right place on the horizon exactly) yet he reported a UFO.

Then you have the fraudsters, people like Jonathan Reed, who put an alien in a freezer. There's Dr. Dan Burisch, a total nut job who can't even keep his own name straight. And then you have Stephen Greer, who would have you believe a commin woodland motgh is an angelic being. Or how about Billy Meier, a guy who traveled back in time to see the dinosaurs--though his picture is straight out of a book. These guys have been caught, hook, line, and sinker. There is no doubt at all that they are frauds. But you have people very vociferously defending these guys. Are Michael Horn or Stephen Greer stupid? Absolutely not. These are quite intelligent and articulate guys who, for some reason, are intentionally or unintentionally deceiving us. Some of this may be disinformation put out by governments. It doesn't really matter. I would submit that there are enough nutcases out there that the governments need do very little.

Under such an onslaught of real or imagined deception no wonder people like the OP are inclined to throw out the entire thing. They pick out a few things they see as a problem, make some of their own assumptions, and blithely throw out the baby with the bathwater.

OP’s problem with DNA is a case in point. He sees little purpose to aliens studying our DNA in depth. He doesn’t really state explicitly why, so I must jump to a conclusion here and guess that it is because an “alien,” having evolved on an entirely different planet, wouldn’t have DNA as we know it and couldn’t possibly be interested more than for just scientific curiosity, therefore one sample would suffice. There are many reasons why the assumptions built into this wholesale dismissal of DNA are possibly incorrect.

The first is so blindingly obvious that one wonders why everyone doesn’t think of this immediately, and that is that the ‘aliens’ aren’t so very alien and may be related to us. One common theme seen in the literature is that they somehow need our DNA to help themselves out of an evolutionary dead-end. Where do they come from? Here? From the future? Another dimension? We don’t know that those ideas can’t be true. It’s easy to jump at them and say things like, “Time travel is impossible.” With conviction, but how sure are you? On these boards we have had reports of experiments in quantum mechanics where a particle can be in two places at once, or one where two related particles react to each other over distances which imply faster than light communications (quantum entanglement.) One take away from these experiments is that it is obvious we don’t know what we don’t know.

Now I certainly can’t tell you the truth here. I simply do not know. J.B.S. Haldane said back in 1927 that “Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose” I’m going to go by that assumption. I do not think it appropriate to give the UFO field a cursory and superficial once over, point out a few alleged problems which may not be problems at all, then dismiss it out of hand. It seems to me that is not terribly useful, and not at all insightful.

Originally posted by jeddun
Well, hey call me crazy, but i'll go with Occum's Razor (all things being equal) & plausibility percentages on explaining things in the most simplest form(s)....one thing history has taught us is that most things can be explained in the most simple of terms.

Lets use Occum's Razor then..

1) is there life out there in the universe?
Statistically, almost impossible to think otherwise. Yes

2) in the lifeforms out there, are any of them intelligent?
Statistically, again almost impossible to think otherwise. Yes

3) Do we know everything there is to know about propulsion, space bending, etc?
No

4) could over billions of years, some of the intelligent lifeforms technology more advanced than ours?
yes. again, highly unlikely that we are at the end of advancement for any civilization

5) if a civilization became space faring, over time, would they map out and investigate other planets containing lifeforms?
...will let you answer this based simply on how humans deal with unique places and species on our own planet

6) given the fact that mapmaking is likely for such a civilization, and such a civilization may indeed be spread out amongst the galaxy and universe, is it possible they are then aware of this planet?

7) if they are aware of this planet, is it likely that they pop on over to monitor what is going on from time to time?

You will find that occum's razor favors the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

But there are alot of false sightings

reply to post by jeddun


Dr. J Allen Hynek, who worked on Project Bluebook, and Dr. Jacques Vallee both used a similar approach.

It simply was not plausible, that an advanced interstellar civilization would do the things associated with UFO sightings, animal mutilations and abductions.

What they could not do though is discount the existence of the phenomena. It was something very real.

Dr. Vallee went to history and mythology and found patterns of the same phenomena going back to the dawn of civilization. This rules out the military industrial origin of the phenomena.

So what does this leave us with?

Not much.

1. Stories of an anomalous phenomena interacting with humanity for thousands of years, mutilating animals, thought to be abducting humans, producing illuminated shapes and objects, and appearing as humanoid beings.

2. Contemporary sightings resulting in photokeratis or radiation burn of the cornea.

3. Abductees suffering from PTSD and sometimes to an extent Stockholm syndrome due to their experiences.

Other than that we don't have really any clue what it is, where it comes from or what it wants.

In ancient times we called them gods, angels, and demons. Those titles seem to fit better than the title extra-terrestrial.

CREDIBLE UFO QUOTES “Before we could do anymore, the army, after conferring with (US) officials, ordered the investigation stopped." Dr Paul Santorini regarding UFOs seen over Greece in 1946. "Maximum security exists concerning the subject of UFOs.” CIA Director, Allen Dulles, 1955. “I have discussed this matter with the effected agencies of the government, and they are of the opinion that is it not wise to publicize this matter at this time." Senator Richard Russell, head of the Armed Services Committee, following his sighting of a UFO during an official trip to the Soviet Union in 1955.

“Reliable reports indicate there are objects coming into our atmosphere at very high speeds and controlled by thinking intelligences.” Navy Admiral Delmar Fahrney in a public statement during 1957.

“Congressional investigations...are still being held on the problem of unidentified flying objects and the problem is one in which there is quite a bit of interest… Since most of the material presented to the committee is classified, the hearings are never printed.” Congressman William H. Ayres, 1958.

“Saucers exist (I saw two). They were intelligently flown or operated (evasive tactics, formation flight, hovering). They were mechanisms, not United States weapons, nor Russian. I presume they are extraterrestrial.” Lt. Colonel Richard Headrick, radar bombing expert, 1959.

“Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe that unknown flying objects are nonsense.” Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, public statement, 1960.

“My own present opinion, based on two years of careful study, is that UFOs are probably extraterrestrial devices engaged in something that might very tentatively be termed ‘surveillance’.” Dr James McDonald before Congress, 1968.

“These UFOs are interplanetary devices systematically observing the Earth, either manned or under remote control, or both.” “Information on UFOs, including sighting reports, has been and is still being officially withheld.” Colonel Joseph J. Bryan III, founder member of the CIAs psychological warfare staff, advisor to NATO.

“This was no ordinary UFO. Scores of people saw it. It was no illusion, no deception, no imagination.” Air MarshallAzim Daudpota, Zimbabwe speaking about a UFO sighting over the country in 1985.

“More than 10,000 sightings have been reported, the majority of which cannot be accounted for by any ‘scientific’ explanation, eg that they are hallucinations, the effects of light refraction, meteors, wheels falling from aeroplanes, and the like…. They have been tracked on radar screens… and the observed speeds have been as great as 9,000 mph. I am convinced that these objects do exist and they are not manufactured by any nation on earth. I can therefore see no alternative to accepting the theory that they come from an extraterrestrial source.” Air Chief Marshall Lord Dowding, Commanding Officer of the RAF during WWII.


“I am convinced there was thought behind the thing’s manoeuvres.” Lieutenant George Gorman, F51 pilot after being in a 30 minute dogfight with a small UFO in 1948.

“UFOs are real and they may come from outer space…photographs and various materials show scientifically that there are more advanced people piloting the saucers and motherships.” General Kanshi Ishikawa, Chief of Air Staff, 1967.


“Air Force interceptors still pursue UFOs as a matter of national security to this country and to determine technical aspects involved.” Major General Joe W. Kelly, 1957.

“Something is going on in the skies… that we do not understand. If all the airline pilots and Air Force pilots who have seen UFOs and sometimes chased them… have been the victims of hallucinations, then an awful lot of pilots should be taken off and forbidden to fly.” Captain Kervendal, French Gendarmerie.

“The Air Force had put out a secret order for its pilots to capture UFOs. For the last six months we have been working with a congressional committee investigating official secrecy concerning proof that UFOs are real machines under intelligent.” Major Donald Keyhoe, during a live TV broadcast on CBS in 1958 in which he was pulled from the air when he began to deviate from the prepared format of the programme.


" “It appears to be a metallic object...tremendous in size… directly ahead and slightly above… I am trying to close for a better look.” Captain Thomas Mantell, USAF.

These were his last words as he closed in on a UFO in 1948. Minutes later his plane was to crash and he was to lose his life. “I was amazed at what I saw. The amount of debris that was scattered over such an area...The more I saw of the fragments, the more I realized it wasn’t anything I was acquainted with. In fact, as it turned out, nobody else was acquainted with it...There was a cover up some place about the whole matter.” Major Jesse Marcel. US Army Intelligence Officer. Extract taken from a video interview.

This testimony is a direct contradiction to the testimony of the Air Force regarding the nature of the recovered debris at Roswell in 1947. “Flying saucers are real. Too many good men have seen them, that don’t have hallucinations.” Captain Eddie Rickenbacker. World War I air ace.

"UFOs sighted in Indonesia are identical with those sighted in other countries. Sometimes they pose a problem for our Air Defence and once we were obliged to open fire on them.” Air Marshall Nurjadin Roesmin, Commander in Chief of the Indonesian Air Force in 1967.

“The most spectacular UFO incident in Indonesia occurred when during the height of President Sukarno’s confrontation in Malaysia, UFOs penetrated a well defended area in Java for two weeks at a stretch, and each time were welcomed with perhaps the heaviest anti-aircraft barrage in history.” Air Commodore J. Salutun, National Aerospace Council of Indonesia, and a Member of the Indonesian Parliament in 1967.

“And don’t tell me they were reflections, I know they were solid objects.” Lieutenant D. A Swimley, USAF in 1953 following the sighting of 8 UFOs that were confirmed on radar and witnessed numerous other people including commercial pilots and police officers.

“Headquarters wouldn't let us go after it and we played around a little bit. We got to watching how it made 90 degree turns at this high speed and everything. We knew it wasn’t a missile of any type, so then we confirmed it with the radar control station, and they kept following it, and then it crashed somewhere off between Texas and the Mexico border.” Colonel Robert Willingham, USAF from an affidavit in the 1970’s when discussing a sighting of a UFO whilst he was navigating an F94 jet on September 6th 1950.

link; prufospolicedatabase.co.uk...


Ocams Razor eh, imply that to the above credible quotes.To many credible sources making too much noise i feel.Do we simply discount all the above quotes just because of the distances it takes to get here, no we do not know all there is to know and the ones claiming we do are the ones to be avoided.Put simply the possibility of highly advanced intelligences possession advanced technology and knowing far more than we do cannot be discounted until its proved wrong.

Originally posted by TinkererJim
reply to post by jeddun

 

Your opinion is based on our contemporary knowledge. Imagine having a conversation with someone 500 years ago about cellphone, GPS, and CT Scans. He'd give you his version of Occam's Razor.

Why suppose that future discoveries will make alien visitation seem more rather than less likely? On average, one cannot properly expect new evidence to increase one's confidence for an assertion. Until the evidence is actually forthcoming, it is neutral, with the capacity make the assertion more or less likely. The more strongly you expect the evidence to point a certain way, the weaker its influence on the assertion (I strongly expect that if I drop a rock, it will fall, and if I am right, this does not add much evidence to the general assertion that rocks fall when dropped) and the stronger its influence on the assertion if you turn out to be wrong. You should not expect in advance that a proposition will appear more plausible after the introduction of more evidence.

Rather than concentrate on reasons why UFOs (and the associated other stuff) are probably not alien, it makes more sense to try and take a broad view of the field and discuss what they might be. For instance, why might UFOs/aliens be advanced human time travelers:

1) Ships and beings are generally "human" sized -- not as large as mountains, or as small as bees.
2) The beings are more often than not described as humanoid -- not many blobs or insects or octopuses.
3) The technology exhibited by most UFOs is advanced, but generally not far beyond what we are already capable of.
4) Aliens appear to be interested in protecting the environment and studying DNA, which could arguably more important to a human from Earth than an alien just passing through, collecting specimens.
5) Their coyness and lack of contact could be due to a "temporal Prime Directive" which might be even more important, since messing with the past could have a direct negative effect on their own existences.
6) Countries like the U.S. keeping time travel a secret would be very important, as you don't want enemies going back in time and making us lose wars we thought we already won.
7) We know humans exist, and will likely continue to exist in the future. At the moment, aliens remain hypothetical.
8) When it comes to navigating spacetime, it sure would be a lot easier for us to find where Earth was or will be at a particular time, as it zooms through space. Just trace the spirals back or forward.

Actually, there are more good reasons for these things to be associated with time travel than with aliens from other planets. Of course, there's that little catch that has to do with time travel being impossible. But hey, human beings are clever, and if there's a way around that, we'll figure it out.

Originally posted by Blue Shift

Actually, there are more good reasons for these things to be associated with time travel than with aliens from other planets. Of course, there's that little catch that has to do with time travel being impossible. But hey, human beings are clever, and if there's a way around that, we'll figure it out.

Based on our current understanding of physics, time travel to the past is possible (for more on this, I recommend checking out Time Travel in Einstein's Universe by J. Richard Gott,) but so unbelievably, incomprehensibly, mind blowingly difficult that it probably wouldn't be practical even for an intergalactic supercivilization.

In some ways, this is worse than merely seeming impossible. We know with some degree of certainty what the laws regarding time travel are, and they simply don't seem to be arranged for our convenience.

Originally posted by Desertopa
In some ways, this is worse than merely seeming impossible. We know with some degree of certainty what the laws regarding time travel are, and they simply don't seem to be arranged for our convenience.

Well, that just makes it more of a challenge, then, doesn't it?

reply to post by jeddun

Facts, of which there are many I'm sure, I'll cover here are just a few key points as to why i believe these UFOs are anything but alien.

Looking forward to your presentation.

1. DNA Abductee Acquisitions: Well, this is by and large the easiest to discredit. An interstellar capable race of superior intelligence would NOT need multiple DNA biopsies done repeatedly. As all Human DNA is 100% the same why would they need any more than 1 single sample??? Surely a race such as this is capable of replicating what they need from one single sample, no?

Human DNA is not 100% the same. So you're wrong right off the bat. As to your basic premise... you bring up a debatable point. However, are plenty of good reasons as to why they would perform an integration program the way that's purported by abductees. The most important one is the "human factor." Perhaps this is their way of being "personal," something our culture completely defines itself by. Individual people.

2. DNA Bovine Acquisitions: See above..a Cow's, a Cow's, a Cow.....they (Aliens) haven't figured this out yet? I submit that It's the gasses in the bellies of these animals splitting the flesh from expansion to reveal a clean 'surgical' line of cutting....and of course animal scavengers.

Again, I think you are viewing this from one angle. If these beings really wanted to "hide," I think they probably could. Obviously, they are leaving us clues. How is that not obvious in the UFO/Alien research that you have conducted?

3. Visitation: It is HIGHLY implausible that of all the races i read about, from the Reptoids on down to the lowly Greys, and beyond (i have read COUNTLESS different species descriptions in books and media from over the years) would all adapt and adhere to the single Mandate of 'hiding' from the Human species/world population. This just makes no sense to me, and surprisingly I've never read anyone else even mention this as It's so simple. Why would every race of Alien, from God knows where, with no connection to one another even in the Political sense, stick to the same process? Like clockwork, from reading accounts of witnesses, it would appear they are all on the same page, following the same orders of "staying out of the public eye".....strange.

Because they aren't "aliens" in the way that hollywood portrays them. They act as one because they understand themselves and what they are, while humans do not. Humans think divergently. We act indepentantly from one another and in the end, if we do not change, this will ultimately lead to our end. Humans act like the mammals they are. The "aliens" have moved beyond the silly paradigm of defining (and limiting) themselves in such ways.

4. Craft Lighting: Ok, why in Hell would any race of beings, hiding from the public, even run a single light aboard these craft? Surely they have a HUD screen where they can see anything they wish, including star system charts (reports over the years describe just this)...so why the anti-collision lights? Do they really expect to 'run into' an earthly craft whilst flying? Surely not as we've already outlined the absolute technological wonders they are capable of...so why something so SO simple as anti-collision lights???

Has it not occured to you that perhaps the lighting is just due to the way their craft operates? Or perhaps most logically, they don't always make an effort to "hide" because they want us to discover them and know them...

5. Power & Diplomacy: Any race able to transverse the interstellar muck MUST have a process of Diplomacy, why is it SO hard for them to approach even one of us in power to exalt their desire to reach out to us? What are they waiting for? With their technology surely they are masters of energy and war (even a peaceful race is able to defend it's home and border).....so why so tentative with the Human race?

There is no "diplomacy" with these guys. They are trying to make this as painless as possible for us because obviously they "care" for us in some way. Perhaps we are related...?

Anyway...chew on that for a bit and once you get a clue you'll see that all these Alien craft are either mis identified natural occurrences OR Military.

I chewed on it a few moment and spit it out because it makes no logical sense nor was it well researched. Here are some books for you to "chew on" before you try your hand at another thread:

1) Leslie Kean - UFOs
2) Any book by Richard Dolan
3) Above Top Secret - Timothy Good
4) Unconventional Flying Objects - Paul R Hill
5) Missing Times - Terry Hansen
6) Flying Saucers are Real - Donald Keyhoe (old book)
7) Passport to Magonia - Jacques Vallee (old book)
8) Missing Time - Budd Hopkins
9) Secret Life - David Jacobs
10) Abduction - John E Mack

Thanks for playing....

-SJ76

Originally posted by jeddun
Facts, of which there are many I'm sure, I'll cover here are just a few key points as to why i believe these UFOs are anything but alien.

1. DNA Abductee Acquisitions: Well, this is by and large the easiest to discredit. An interstellar capable race of superior intelligence would NOT need multiple DNA biopsies done repeatedly. As all Human DNA is 100% the same why would they need any more than 1 single sample??? Surely a race such as this is capable of replicating what they need from one single sample, no?

First of all your premise is incorrect. Human DNA is by no means 100% the same across the species. In fact, variations within a species' DNA is one of the basic principles of evolution. It is also an ongoing cause of disease within our species:
Variations in DNA That Cause Disease

Second of all, you are making a speculation about an equally speculative theory. Personally I think it's silly to say that aliens are in need of our DNA unless there is evidence to support this. How do we know what aliens are looking for? Their very existence hasn't even been proven, much less their motivations. So, it becomes equally silly to say that a totally hypothetical alien race is absolutely NOT looking for DNA.

2. DNA Bovine Acquisitions: See above..a Cow's, a Cow's, a Cow.....they (Aliens) haven't figured this out yet? I submit that It's the gasses in the bellies of these animals splitting the flesh from expansion to reveal a clean 'surgical' line of cutting....and of course animal scavengers.

I have a lot of doubts about animal mutilation theories involving aliens, too. But if such a thing were occurring, there could be countless unknown reasons for doing so. Again, it is impossible to theorize unless we know more about the supposed alien species.

3. Visitation: It is HIGHLY implausible that of all the races i read about, from the Reptoids on down to the lowly Greys, and beyond (i have read COUNTLESS different species descriptions in books and media from over the years) would all adapt and adhere to the single Mandate of 'hiding' from the Human species/world population. This just makes no sense to me, and surprisingly I've never read anyone else even mention this as It's so simple. Why would every race of Alien, from God knows where, with no connection to one another even in the Political sense, stick to the same process? Like clockwork, from reading accounts of witnesses, it would appear they are all on the same page, following the same orders of "staying out of the public eye".....strange.

First of all, I wouldn't just lump all the species descriptions you've ever read together into one cohesive theory. There's a lot of nonsense out there based on nothing more than perceived "spriritual awakenings." Second, why are you assuming that if there are alien races observing Earth, they have no political connection to each other? This confounds me. Everything we have observed about our own species suggests that intelligent beings will try to build order between them in order to increase each other's odds for survival. So I think it is very scientific to propose that intelligent aliens would likewise have some kind of political connection or alliance with one another.

As for staying out of the public eye, the UFO phenomenon suggests to me that if there's one thing aliens AREN'T doing, it's staying out of the public eye. If you're wondering why UFO's wouldn't be flying around our skies in plain sight 24 hours a day, I think it's reasonable to assume that whatever their intentions may be, getting attacked and hassled by the human establishment would not be one of them. But if you only hang around for 30 seconds or so (most sightings are short in duration, after all), then you have nothing to worry about from us humans.

4. Craft Lighting: Ok, why in Hell would any race of beings, hiding from the public, even run a single light aboard these craft? Surely they have a HUD screen where they can see anything they wish, including star system charts (reports over the years describe just this)...so why the anti-collision lights? Do they really expect to 'run into' an earthly craft whilst flying? Surely not as we've already outlined the absolute technological wonders they are capable of...so why something so SO simple as anti-collision lights???

You are so eager to assume. Why on Earth (or off it) would these lights be "anti-collision lights?" Once again, there are countless other possibilities that we can barely even imagine. Most of the descriptions I've seen / read do not suggest "anti-collision lights" but more of a technological phenomenon, like flames or searchlights. And again, such a species wouldn't necessarily be concerned about whether or not a couple of gawking civilians happen to spot them.

5. Power & Diplomacy: Any race able to transverse the interstellar muck MUST have a process of Diplomacy,

For the record, this is the exact opposite of what you said earlier, when you claimed that alien species would not have a connection to one another even in the political sense.

why is it SO hard for them to approach even one of us in power to exalt their desire to reach out to us? What are they waiting for? With their technology surely they are masters of energy and war (even a peaceful race is able to defend it's home and border).....so why so tentative with the Human race? To say "Oh they know we aren't ready" is preposterous and self-aggrandizing...only Humans think Humans are special. Especially hen this is mentioned in the same breath as "Oh the Human Earth race is unlike any other..so they are taking their time"...LOL the only place this way of thinking works is in the 3 top religions of the world.

It is difficult for us to consider an alien species that observes us yet does not interact with us for precisely the same reasons you are describing: After eons of being the only civilized species on our planet, humans have acquired a sense of self-importance. Humans think humans are special. What's this? Somebody has more advanced technology and society than we do? How DARE they not interact with us? Throughout our history, when we humans decided we wanted something, we got it, and no other species could tell us no. Now, all of a sudden we're faced with the possibility that maybe in some circumstances, we don't have the final say. Frankly I think a little humility is just what we could use these days.

I do think humans are special. Any scientist with half a brain can look around and see that we are unlike any other organism around. If we discovered an intelligent but less-advanced species of aliens on another planet, would we be interested? Of course! In fact, we would be utterly fascinated. There is so much we could learn from observing another species, but that doesn't mean we'd go parading across their territory and shaking the hands of their leaders. Likewise, why wouldn't a more advanced species have a similar fascination with us? And who are we to demand when and how they should interact with us? It could even be as simple as the possibility that they just don't have anything to gain by interacting with us directly. I can't think of anything we could teach them that they can't simply observe by watching us.

Anyway...chew on that for a bit and once you get a clue you'll see that all these Alien craft are either mis identified natural occurrences OR Military.

Your self-assurance confuses me. How can you feel so utterly convinced about something which you (and everybody else, including me) know nothing about?

Bonus: One of the oldest and most 'loved' stories by Alien believers is the Aurora Texas windmill crash in the late 1800s...proven a hoax!

That's nice. There are plenty of hoax stories out there. Your "bonus" could easily be pulled from an entire library of UFO hoaxes. But there are also plenty of stories that remain unexplained. Instead of assuming that they, too, are hoaxed, consider investigating each story on its own merits.

Finally, regarding your claim of "Occam's Razor:" This thing is so overused it's ridiculous. It's a reasonable scientific tool but its reach is actually very narrow. Most people use it in far too broad a context. Here's what I mean: To say that the simplest answer is the best one assumes that you know enough about the subject to say what is "simple" and what is not. For example, suppose you went back to the year 1000 AD and asked a Roman volunteer the question, "Which is simpler: Going to the Moon in a closed carriage that shoots fire from one end, or going to the Moon by acquiring permission from the gods through careful ritual practices?" The Roman probably would have just shrugged, assumed you were crazy, or chosen the second answer. So I don't think something as hypothetical as alien visitors is the proper place for Occam's Razor, at least until we know more about the true nature of the Universe and our place within it.

reply to post by Scramjet76


Ok so it's a your opinion against mine type thing? Maybe i wasn't clear but i would need some proof to back up your claims...i do not need proof as I'm the skeptic per se...but you seem to be speaking for these 'races' of humanoids as if you've known them and their methods. On top of it all you are just referencing material from people that share your beliefs. UFO writers have found a CAREER in this field, they have recourse. Hell this is how they choose to pay their bills.

I want some savory scientific discussion...otherwise it's ones opinion vs anothers.

But ok...everyone's entitled.

How do i close a thread?

This isn't going where i expected it to..it's becoming an opinion driven discussion..and i should know better as all the users here aren't skeptics but believers...my bad.

Not to mention none of us are qualified to even discuss it academically..I just had a few points i thought someone could help me with.

So you don't think UFOs are ET in nature. Then you would admit that you claim no knowledge as to ET, since they haven't visited us? Then you would admit that you have no idea what a true ET would look like, what a UFO would look like, etc. You also must admit (if you are a rational person) that there is no way to know what an ET's objective on our planet might be if they were here, or what their technology would be like. You are making the assumption that aliens are just like humans with way better technology. That is an assumption you are making about a subject which you admittedly have no knowledge (you admit this by saying you do not believe UFOs are ET). One cannot judge a phenomena which currently defies description in accepted scientific terms and within accepted ideologies, based on our own ideas! ET is alien, it is not human, it is irrational and likely foolish to believe that other life forms would have the same motives and perspectives as humanity, especially a race which is advanced enough for interstellar travel.

I'm not supporting either position here (UFOs being ET or just human). I'm just stating that your position and evidence is not logical in nature, since some of your assumptions are contradictory to your own stated knowledge and beliefs on the subject. If you believe there are no ET UFOs on earth, then there is no way in hell you can know what ET UFOs *should* be doing if they were on earth.

Yes, while i believe in ufo's and by that i mean seemingly intelligently controlled objects that far surpass technology we 'know' of in terms of rate acceleration and maneuverability...that does not mean i think they are alien in nature, it is far more probable that they are man made. The technology must be astounding though and deserves to be made public.

reply to post by jeddun
I agree there's a lot of implausibility in the subject of UFOs. Way too much. On the other hand, there's some signal in all that noise and it points to a mystery that isn't really addressed in your list.

1- Red herring

2- Red herring

3- It's a redundant argument using the mythical creatures of ufology to argue against visitation from elsewhere. I agree that it makes no sense if all these accounts are to be believed. The thing is; who believes all the accounts?

4- The facts of many UFO reports are that they are illuminated objects. Such sightings have been reported by all sections of societies the world over from Joe Schmo to trained observers like meteorologists and famous astronomers. It doesn't necessarily follow that they are 'alien.'

5- Not knowing anything at all about the motives of a potentially intelligent visitor/species/race, it's a leap of faith to second guess them. There's no reason to use the benchmark of your own imagination as a limitation to the activities of visiting unknowns. I can think of several scenarios that would account for the silence and dozens more have been proposed in Sci-Fi and the books of researchers/ commentators.

Anyway...chew on that for a bit and once you get a clue you'll see that all these Alien craft are either mis identified natural occurrences OR Military.

Ignoring the trolling flavour of this comment, some very good cases have been reported/ recorded by military. Check out the Kelly Johnson case, or the Edwards AFB incident where two radars and base personnel identified UFOs in their airspace for several hours. The UFOs buzzed the landing strips and eventually two jets were scrambled.

As a side-note, the 'black projects/ secret weapons' argument is pretty limited and often illogical. UFOs have been reported in the skies of just about every nation on Earth. Are the advanced nations testing new aircraft over major population centres or over foreign countries? Investing millions in new tech and running the risk of it crashing in New York or some suburb of Croatia is unlikely.

Most UFO sightings are identifiable, but there's a few that have defied explanation. In the official reports, the 'unknowns' range from around 5% to nearly 30%. If I hadn't seen a couple of 'unknowns' with my eyes (in company), I'd be willing to entertain the minute possibility that it's all BS.

Originally posted by jeddun
How do i close a thread?

This isn't going where i expected it to..it's becoming an opinion driven discussion..and i should know better as all the users here aren't skeptics but believers...my bad.

Not to mention none of us are qualified to even discuss it academically..I just had a few points i thought someone could help me with.

heh, you don't close a thread because it isn't going where you want it to...thats the nature of ATS..
You realize how many religious threads trying to prove a deity or a specific religion went poorly?

The best way to formulate a thread it to simply open up a discussion and let people add their views and knowledge on a subject and simply see where it ends up.

As far as qualified academically, I am.

reply to post by jeddun


Oh, God! (Just a saying...)
My conclusion using Occam's razor is entirely different.
Human DNA has many variations and there are things about DNA that we don't know yet. It's only natural for Extraterrestrial beings to take as many different DNA samples as possible. As for their presence they are not even trying to hide it as it does not matter to them. I mean how many of us have any moral problems dissecting dead fish for scientific purposes after we have killed it?
In my opinion majority of Spacecraft IFO sightings are mistaken as most of abduction cases are hoaxes. However, there are some cases, where Occam's razor points out to unearthly conclusion such as Chiles-Witted incident.
(I'm not stating that they have been Extraterrestrial vehicles, but in some cases we should take it as the best explanation for incident if we use Occam's razor and unless more contradicting evidence is provided)

There is one thing that has always made me question Alien abductions and their credibility. Direct contact with alien and human should cause biological contamination, yet there has been no such evidence so far. Alien would possibly get some native human microorganisms and vice versa. One could argue that "Aliens" had removed all biological contaminants from their environment, but that sounds unlikely. These other theories sound even more unlikely.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
As far as qualified academically, I am.

Me, too. I don't have a degree in Ufology, but I like to think that having an active interest in the subject for over 40 years qualifies me in some small way to comment on it with some authority.

For instance, the primary problem with UFOs being considered "alien" in nature is that the existence of aliens has never been established. That's all the argument you need.

It's the exact same reason why UFOs are not (----------------) in nature. (----------------) remains unknown, so associating UFOs with any attributes of (------------------) makes no sense.

And, naturally, anyone claiming that such craft or entities are "not human," is simply trying to prove a negative, which is logically impossible, since any knowledge base that conclusion is based on is going to be incomplete.

So there you go. It's not so much that UFOs are unlikely to be "alien," it's that we don't really have any good definitions or examples to prove the positive case is true.