5 Myth about Islam

reply to post by babloyi


I was getting there, I just wanted to have fun with them lol..

They seem to think Mohammad was a pedophile when we know his first wife was older than him.

That's would be a stupid assertion to make considering the definition of Pedophilia:
"a sexual attraction to children"

If Mohammad was sexually attracted to children then his first wife should have been a child, considering child brides were easily obtainable at that time.
If Mohammad was sexually attracted to children then his second wife should have been a child, considering he became a very powerful man, and could easily surround himself with hundreds children.

This is just hate speaking, Shaytan Whispering.

Funny how historic evidence suggests Aisha was between 17 - 20.

reply to post by oozyism


Actually all the evidence suggests she was 9yrs old when the marriage was consumated as I have shown in what most muslims accept as completely authoratative sources.

You seem to belong to one of these fringe minority muslim sects, perhaps this is why you had to flee to the lands of the infidel, lest your brothers in allah kill you for apsostasy.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Actually, they're not considered "completely authoritative" at all, considering that there are several hadith that contradict them. And in the face of two contradictory hadith, you go with the one that is has more reliable narrators, that is closer to the Quran, that has greater verifiability.

And in this situation, note that all the hadith that you quoted are from ibn Urwa, who was known to have fallen in reliability in his old age when he moved to Iraq.

Did you check the link I linked at all?

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
reply to post by oozyism

 

Actually all the evidence suggests she was 9yrs old when the marriage was consumated as I have shown in what most muslims accept as completely authoratative sources.

You seem to belong to one of these fringe minority muslim sects, perhaps this is why you had to flee to the lands of the infidel, lest your brothers in allah kill you for apsostasy.

Well at least you don't call Mohammad a pedophile, so just leave at that.

Unless you want to discuss the details of how old she really was?

reply to post by oozyism


So if a pedophile happens to have married or had sex with someone who is not a child then they can't be pedophiles? Is that really what you're arguing?

Not to offend Muslims but your argument is absurd. There are plenty of pedophiles who have done the above things.

I think a more valid point would be, if someone was a pedophile, why would ALL OF HIS WIVES (save one) be widows who had already been through one marriage previously (at least)?

If anything, one would be accusing the Prophet of being an anililagnile (having a preference for older women)....of course, this is just as absurd.

In any event, accusations of paedophilia are evidence of nothing more than a lack of knowledge of the matter, or an attempt to use rabble-rousing "keywords" to incite those without all the facts into a frenzy of hatred. Because by all accounts, there is no ambiguity that nothing occurred until AFTER the onset of puberty.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by oozyism

 

So if a pedophile happens to have married or had sex with someone who is not a child then they can't be pedophiles? Is that really what you're arguing?

Not to offend Muslims but your argument is absurd. There are plenty of pedophiles who have done the above things.

I think you have failed.

1. Child brides were easily accessible at the time, yet Mohammad's first wife was older than him, the rest of his wives (except Aisha) was already married before.

2. Mohammad was a very powerful man, why did he only marry one Child Bride (for the sake of argument).

Answer number 2, then we will continue.

reply to post by oozyism


That's a cop out and a complete abdication of responsiilty.

It is oh so easy and convenient for 'moderate' Muslims to blame everything on the UK / US / West rather than looking at the role Islam itself has played in the whole sorry affair and asking what they themselves can do about it.

Until Muslim's themselves start dealing with the extremists and the propogaters of the 'myth's' you mention there will always be confrontation,

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by oozyism

 

That's a cop out and a complete abdication of responsiilty.

It is oh so easy and convenient for 'moderate' Muslims to blame everything on the UK / US / West rather than looking at the role Islam itself has played in the whole sorry affair and asking what they themselves can do about it.

Until Muslim's themselves start dealing with the extremists and the propogaters of the 'myth's' you mention there will always be confrontation,

Muslim land fell to Western control since the fall of Ottoman empire, their mis-management caused the political instability which exists today.

The above being said, I'm not laying the blame souly on the West, DUUH, Musilms are also responsible for not following their religion, rather pursuing culture because they think they can't do better than their ancestors.

Americans are coming to a similar situation if you examine it closely.

The Golden age of America has gone past, now Americans want to copy their ancestors, rather than learn from history.

Musilms are doing that right now, they think they can't do better than the Golden Age of Islam, so they are trying to copy the laws of that time, the culture and everything, even if sometimes it goes against their own scripture.

If a man rapes one woman and doesn't rape another woman he is still a rapist.

Mohammed married a 6 year's old girl.
Until consumating the marriage when she was 8 years old Mohammed satisfied himself by 'thighing' her.
Today that would qualify Mohammed as a peodophile.
The age of his other wives is irrelevant.

Different times and different culture, but very suspicious nonetheless.

Originally posted by Freeborn
If a ma rapes one woman and doesn't rape another woman he is still a rapist.

Mohammed married a 6 year's old girl.
Until consumating the marriage when she was 8 years old Mohammed satisfied himself by 'thighing' her.
Today that would qualify Mohammed as a peodophile.
The age of his other wives is irrelevant.

Different times and different culture, but very suspicious nonetheless.

LOL

Doesn't make sense does it, but hate usually revolves around irrational belief.

characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary).

Think for a minute.

If Child brides were easily accessible in those times, then why did he marry a women older than him? When Pedophilia is characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children.

Doesn't make sense does it?

Then again, hate revolves around irrational belief.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by JohhnyBGood

 

Actually, they're not considered "completely authoritative" at all, considering that there are several hadith that contradict them. And in the face of two contradictory hadith, you go with the one that is has more reliable narrators, that is closer to the Quran, that has greater verifiability.

And in this situation, note that all the hadith that you quoted are from ibn Urwa, who was known to have fallen in reliability in his old age when he moved to Iraq.

Did you check the link I linked at all?

edit on 20-12-2010 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

Well here is what I did say - and there are NO quotes by 'ibn Urwa,' whoever he is!

For Sunni muslims these are considered completely authoratative hadiths - the Shia may disagree, but then thier record of pedophilia is pehaps even worse! en.wikipedia.org...

�Aisha played with dolls while Mohammed was present. Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 no.5981 p.1299

�Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 p.130,131

A�isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed�s house. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 no.1876 p.133

A�isha was seven years old when she married, nine years old when she lived with Mohammed, and 18 years old when he died. (not Sahih) Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 no.1877 p.134

Or perhaps you would like even more: This is a site that deals comprehensively and exhaustively with the issue!

To understand the authoritative nature of the example of Mohammed, we have to understand something of the Muslim hadiths. They hold a higher place in Sunni Islam than church tradition does in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Sunni Muslims hold to six collections of hadiths as the most authoritative writings in Islam after the Qur�an. The rest of this paper shows that the accusation is completely true, according to numerous corroborating early Muslims sources. In addition to these quotes from the six authoritative hadiths is a reference from the highly respected early Muslim historians ibn Ishaq and al-Tabari.

1. Sahih al-Bukhari 810-870 A.D. 256 A.H.

1a. "Narrated Hisham�s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married �Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153.

1b. The same points are in Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.234 p.152.

1c. "Narrated �Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with �Aisha while she was six year old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.65

1d. Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect. Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.115 no.163 p.119

1e. "Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don't remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah�s Apostle in the morning and in the evening." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.44 no.245 p.158. Therefore �Aisha either was not born yet or else not very old or not born yet when her parents became Muslims. This is consistent with her being a child when her marriage with Mohammed was consummated.

2. Sahih Muslim 817-875 A.D. 261 A.H.

This is generally considered the second most reliable collection of hadiths.

2a. "(3309) �A�isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah�s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have shared in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah�s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716

2b. "(3310) �A�isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah�s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old."

(3311) �A�isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah�s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married here when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her: and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3310,3311 p.716.

2c. "(5981) �A�isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah�s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah�s Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah�s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her.

2d. (5982) This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Hisham with the same chain of transmitters with a slight variation of wording." Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 ch.1005 no.5981-5982 p.1299

www.muslimhope.com...

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reply to post by Freeborn

Originally posted by Freeborn
Until consumating the marriage when she was 8 years old Mohammed satisfied himself by 'thighing' her.

Proof please. And I want Quran or at least authentic hadith. Not some suspicious audio file in a language not spoken by most here on ATS, hosted on the server of a website dedicated to islam-bashing.

Thanks!

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
Well here is what I did say - and there are NO quotes by 'ibn Urwa,' whoever he is!

For Sunni muslims these are considered completely authoratative hadiths

Once again, Johnny, no, just because there is a hadith in one of the Sahih books, doesn't make it authoritative for all muslims (shia or sunni). And insofar as there being no quote by "ibn Urwa", I think you didn't look carefully enough while pasting that large chunk of hadith. You'll notice (at least one) was "narrated by Urwa".

Perhaps you are not familiar with hadith methodology. Hope you don't mind if I give you a quick recap?
See, the famed collectors of Hadith (in this case examples like Bukhari and Muslim) collected "narrations". Those that they collected these narrations had heard those narrations from someone before them. So if a hadith is relayed with the proper isnad -meaning "chain of narrators"- as it should, to be considered authentic, then it would look something like this:
"Ahmad reported that Abu Mu`awiyah heard Hisham ibn `Urwah on the authority of Fatimah bint Al-Mundhir on the authority of Asma’ bint Abi Bakr, who said: My mother came (to Madinah) during the treaty Quraish had made, while she was still a polytheist. So I came to the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and said to him, “O Messenger of Allah, my mother has come willingly. Should I treat her with kindness?” He replied, “Yes! Treat her with kindness.”"

See, that blocked part of the text is very important...it is what hadith scholars used throughout the ages to verify the authenticity of a certain hadith. If one of the narrators in the chain was weak, the hadith was downgraded in status.

So, in the case of the hadith you are relating, while there may be several end narrators (the first in the chain), and thus give the impression that there is a consensus among a large group relating to the same hadith, this doesn't mean it is exactly accurate, because one of the narrators in the middle of this chain, in this case ibn Urwa, was considered untrustworthy at the time he related that hadith.

See what I mean?

Look personaly I dont care how many little girls Mo diddled - he did far worse things than that - what is perverse is that his example is considered normative and 'Holy' and is copied widely throughout the Islamic world as an example.

First you tell me that all my examples are from an untrustworthy source "narrated by Urwa". when none of them are - then you tell me one of them is - when in fact none of them are! - this seems allways to be the case with debating Muslims, lying, obfuscating , denial, evasion - this is just pathological!

reply to post by babloyi


I think JohnnyBGood has done that for me.

No doubt you will find something wrong with the source.

We've had this discussion on several occassions, it seems that neither of us will ever convince the other of the validity of our claims.

I believe that by the moral standards of today Mohammed would rightly be considered a peodophile.
What he did was not that uncommon within his culture and society.
We are ALL too quick, and it is a big mistake, to use the morals and stanndards of today when judging the acts and deeds of yesterday.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


Now this is what I'm talking about.

Do you know how Hadith is collected?

How is the credibility of a Hadith tested?

It is not about which books Sunnis or Shias hold dearly, or believe most, it is about history, this is all history.

How do historians check whether a quote from someone is correct or not?

-----------

There are timelines which goes against the quotes you provided, in that sense making the quotes very unreliable:

1. The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.

2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.” [6]

(Go here to see an image of the full entry in Urdu.)

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

www.muslim.org...

Enjoy.

Hadith is corrupted and is filled with man made errors just like the Bible, I won't bring it forward as facts, I would bring it forward as vague history, which needs to be cross references with other historic events for credibility.

Then again all History is vague, history is simply a lesson, we must learn from.

Well I would certainly agree most of the Hadith even the authoratative versions are just a collection of unreliable PC doctored anecdotes - only I would extend that to the compilation of the Quran itself - and that is precisely why it is paraded as a pure, unquestionable and infalible source - because it is chock full of innanity, contradictions, nonesense, plaguerism, hatred and errors! - that to permit any critical scrutiny of it, would cause it to collapse like the house of cards it is.

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
Well I would certainly agree most of the Hadith even the authoratative versions are just a collection of unreliable PC doctored anecdotes - only I would extend that to the compilation of the Quran itself - and that is precisely why it is paraded as a pure, unquestionable and infalible source - because it is chock full of innanity, contradictions, nonesense, plaguerism, hatred and errors! - that to permit any critical scrutiny of it, would cause it to collapse like the house of cards it is.

Don't be angry because your pedophilia dreams of Islamists didn't come true.

It is OK.

Mohammad is neither a Pedophile, DUHH married mostly widows and older women, and his marriage to a 9 year old is absolutely uncertain.

What else are you gonna throw our way?

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
Look personaly I dont care how many little girls Mo diddled

You seem to have dedicated a significant number of posts to something you don't care about..or are you slowly realising that you position is untenable, and are slowly backing out from giving it any importance?
Because yes, the hadith which relate Aisha's age as being 6 and then 9 are all from Hisham ibn Urwa, through his father. And while you (or whoever you pasted those hadith from you have in your post) may not have included the chain of narrators (even so, Hisham ibn Urwa is mentioned in a couple of those you posted, probably by accident), they are still there.

reply to post by Freeborn

Originally posted by Freeborn
I think JohnnyBGood has done that for me.

No doubt you will find something wrong with the source.

I see no mention of any "thighing" going on in any of Johnny's quotes.

In Iran as of June 2002 it is legal for a 9 year old girl to marry with her parents� permission. Voices Behind the Veil p.136-137 www.muslimhope.com...

The sources I quoted are well known as being THE authorities in hadith for you to pretend that they are not is ludicrous - perhaps you should take your argument up with the Iranian legal scholars!

The reason I have spent so much time on this is that I am fed up to the back teeth with the dissembling of Muslim apologists thinking they can just bamboozle all the infidels with tortuous and disigenous interpretations, that if they just keep lying and evading they will get away with it.


If this is legal in Iran - it is because it is considered an authoratative example from the life of Mohammed - and therfore cannot be argued against!