does this Venturi theory explain mutual attraction of bodies? aka gravity

reply to post by XPLodER

Universal expansion theory has to do with the expansion of empty space between galaxies and not so much within galaxies. To be honest I am on the fence with this whole Universal expansion theory due to some discrepancies in their measurements, i.e. red shift of quasars and galactic bridging, but this is another subject.

However your observation of the heliosphere is something different. For one it is the direct measurement of material, plasma, from the Sun and it is not really expanding. If I were to make a guess I would think that the size of this bubble (heliosphere) changes over time due to an influence from the galaxy. It gets bigger and smaller due to the amount of pressure from the outside galactic medium but I don't think there is a constant expansion. I would also think that this heliosphere loops back into itself at the solar poles similar to what the Earth's magnetosphere does. Energy that is thrown out from the Sun, hits the interstellar medium at the bow shock and then flows back around towards the Sun's poles.

reply to post by Devino

your ideas are interesting to me

I would also think that this heliosphere loops back into itself at the solar poles similar to what the Earth's magnetosphere does. Energy that is thrown out from the Sun, hits the interstellar medium at the bow shock and then flows back around towards the Sun's poles.

the idea is easyer to understand if we leave the volume fixed just to show its not the expansion of the heliosphere diameter, leave the volume fixed
i dont mean expansion of the heliosphere boundry
i mean expansion of the three dimentional space that is the "static" volume filled up with presure and density at temperature.

the expansion happens inside the sphere
when density is expressed into the sphere from its centre (sun) it expands evenly outward away from the centre.
it fills the sphereical space up to 1AU its traveling at 1,800,000 km/h
the next bit to fill is 2AU but the area difference between 1Au and 2Au is massive.
then fill up to 3Au with presure/density at this point the energy stored in pressure density would have disapated to a point where the solar wind could "slow down" into the area of the 3Au sphere and equalise pressure with aera expansion.
there are 7Au more to "fill" up with this pressure
yet the pressure expands outwards in all directions only losing 1/2 of its speed?
over 10 Au of area?

the numbers are more of an example than to explain the principal

xploder

Originally posted by XPLodER
Area of circle 1 = 1 dia = volume 0.5235987756
Area of circle 2 = 2dia =volume 4.188790205
Area of circle 3 = 3 dia =volume 14.13716694

Originally posted by XPLodER

Let's look at the area of interest in this diagram, the red area between the bodies:
OK based on this example, when dealing with a planet like the Earth, the leading edge (closest to the sun) is at 93,000,000 miles, and the trailing edge of the Earth is 8000 miles further, say 93,008,000 miles. So the expansion of the solar wind sphere can be calculated using those two radii. That's not much expansion, and that's all the expansion there is in the red area in your diagram, right?

Originally posted by XPLodER
But the process in space is not expansion of gas but an expansion of 3 dimensional space that the bodies reside in.

And your latest reply describes an expansion of plasma moving through space, NOT an expansion of 3 dimensional space that the bodies reside in, right?

reply to post by Arbitrageur

Let's look at the area of interest in this diagram, the red area between the bodies:
OK based on this example, when dealing with a planet like the Earth, the leading edge (closest to the sun) is at 93,000,000 miles, and the trailing edge of the Earth is 8000 miles further, say 93,008,000 miles. So the expansion of the solar wind sphere can be calculated using those two radii. That's not much expansion, and that's all the expansion there is in the red area in your diagram, right?

The expansion of area from 1Au to 2Au is an 7 fold “expansion” of area in all directions simultaneously “3 dimentional” expansion refers to the area “expansion” not just “radially”

radial definition
ra•dial (rā′dē əl)
adjective
1.
a. of or like a ray or rays; branching out in all directions from a common center
b. having or characterized by parts that branch out in this way
2. of or situated like a radius
3. ANAT. of or near the radius or forearm

www.yourdictionary.com...
ie the radial ray is one primary ray travelling from the center outwards the further it gets from the centre the further it gets from all other rays travelling radially away from the center.
But not in this case
The rays are NOT getting further away from each other (they are technically)
The more they travel from the center the more area there is “supposed” to be between them.

Eddy diffusion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Eddy diffusion, eddy dispersion, or turbulent diffusion is any diffusion process by which substances are mixed in the atmosphere or in any fluid system due to eddy motion.[1][2] In another definition[3] it is mixing that is caused by eddies that can vary in size from the small Kolmogorov microscales to subtropical gyres.
Because the microscopic processes responsible for atmospheric mixing are too complex to model in detail, atmospheric modelers generally treat atmospheric mixing as a macroscopic "eddy" diffusion process. In this approach, the diffusion rate at each pressure level is parameterized by a quantity known as the eddy diffusion coefficient, K[4] (also sometimes called eddy diffusivity).
References

en.wikipedia.org...
so there is some process that provides for “expansion” between these rays
so there is a even distribution of “density” regardless of distance from center and from other rays
when you look at the
1. Ray expansion diffusion process, you realize that very quickly the rays are filling ever increasing area but not losing any speed or medium density
2. The only way to explain the rays travelling in three dimentions and not becoming diffuse is the ray itself must also be expanding in three dimentions.
The mechanism of expansion of the rays i have used is eddy diffusion because it shows the three dimentional movement involved in the type of expansion im trying to explain.
In a nut shell
The eddys are a representation of three dimentional “expansion” that im talking about
And even small eddy currents will interact with two bodies (red line) to provide for the expansion between the two bodies which draws them together.
The eddy currents are an example of the physical “expansion” between two bodies causing the effect.
Whew
xploder

Originally posted by XPLodER
The expansion of area from 1Au to 2Au is an 7 fold “expansion” of area in all directions simultaneously “3 dimentional” expansion refers to the area “expansion” not just “radially”

The red area in your diagram, if the body was the Earth, covers roughly 0.99996AU to 1.00004 AU, not 1AU to 2AU.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


ah yes you are correct
but to fill the 2Au area the 1Au area has to allow "flow" through it to get to 2Au and because the 2Au area is bigger than the 1Au area the "flow" through the smaller area is faster but the expansion is less because of the smaller area to expand in.
edit to add the amount of expansion is not local to the "diameter of the earth"
the expansion happens from 0Au to 10Au
0Au has the less amount of "expansion" but because its closest to the radial path at its center the strongest "expansion" force is created.
at 1Au the area "between" the "rays" has more to fill in with the eddys so it has to "allow" more "expansion" to take place but to "fill in the extra area between the rays. the "eddys are larger but less "powerful"
ie the more expansion required to fill the area between the rays
the less overall streangth the eddy currents have the bigger they are

so at the 10Au point (approx)
the eddy currents have become so diffuse themselves they can no longer "support" the expansion of area and the three dimentional expansion comes to an ubrupt halt difusing at a boundry we know as the helio shock boundry


xploder

Originally posted by XPLodER
edit to add the amount of expansion is not local to the "diameter of the earth"
the expansion happens from 0Au to 10Au

so at the 10Au point (approx)
the eddy currents have become so diffuse themselves they can no longer "support" the expansion of area and the three dimentional expansion comes to an ubrupt halt difusing at a boundry we know as the helio shock boundry

I read the wiki and it lists the termination shock, is that what you're talking about?

en.wikipedia.org...

The termination shock is the point in the heliosphere where the solar wind slows down to subsonic speed (with respect to the star) due to interactions with the local interstellar medium. This causes compression, heating, and a change in the magnetic field. In our solar system the termination shock is believed to be 75 to 90 astronomical units[7] from the Sun.

So 75 to 90 AU is a lot further than 10AU if that's what you mean.

But getting back to the topic of this thread, your diagram shows a red area where the flow would "speed up" between the bodies, that is the area of interest I've been focusing on for the venturi effect claim. So in that area of interest the expansion from 0.99996AU to 1.00004AU isn't a huge effect, I don't see how additional expansion of the solar wind out to 10AU is relevant to that.

And you still haven't answered my question:

In addition to speeding up in between the bodies, as your diagram shows, won't the solar wind also speed up on the corresponsing outside edges? In this illustration that would be the top and bottom flow.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/935a9440299d.png[/atsimg]

Don't the flows above and below the top sphere cancel out, and the flows above and below the bottom sphere cancel out?

If you bring the spheres closer together you might get some interaction different from this, but they would have to be pretty close, much closer than the moon is to the Earth.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by XPLodER
edit to add the amount of expansion is not local to the "diameter of the earth"
the expansion happens from 0Au to 10Au

so at the 10Au point (approx)
the eddy currents have become so diffuse themselves they can no longer "support" the expansion of area and the three dimentional expansion comes to an ubrupt halt difusing at a boundry we know as the helio shock boundry

I read the wiki and it lists the termination shock, is that what you're talking about?

en.wikipedia.org...

The termination shock is the point in the heliosphere where the solar wind slows down to subsonic speed (with respect to the star) due to interactions with the local interstellar medium. This causes compression, heating, and a change in the magnetic field. In our solar system the termination shock is believed to be 75 to 90 astronomical units[7] from the Sun.

So 75 to 90 AU is a lot further than 10AU if that's what you mean.

But getting back to the topic of this thread, your diagram shows a red area where the flow would "speed up" between the bodies, that is the area of interest I've been focusing on for the venturi effect claim. So in that area of interest the expansion from 0.99996AU to 1.00004AU isn't a huge effect, I don't see how additional expansion of the solar wind out to 10AU is relevant to that.

And you still haven't answered my question:

In addition to speeding up in between the bodies, as your diagram shows, won't the solar wind also speed up on the corresponsing outside edges? In this illustration that would be the top and bottom flow.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/935a9440299d.png[/atsimg]

Don't the flows above and below the top sphere cancel out, and the flows above and below the bottom sphere cancel out?

If you bring the spheres closer together you might get some interaction different from this, but they would have to be pretty close, much closer than the moon is to the Earth.

ill try to answer your question directly

thermodynamic interaction of spherical bodies creates a picture similar to the black and white diagram you have supplied.
something to keep in mind is that if those two bodies were close enough together both the inner surfaces would speed up flow creating the venturi effect.

so the "speed" around the outside the "outside" would be constant (no change)
but because the two curvatures can "focus" or increase the speed of medium between.
ie add the two inner suface interactions together, and they mulitiply the effect.
this is a very weak force by itself and as you have mentioned
but if the entry diameter "between" the bodies and the minimum distence between the bodies is different, there has to be an increase in velocity "between" the objects.

so put simply
the two inner surfaces create a funnel between them so that both curvatures "act" together to factor the effect.
while the two outter forcses only have their curvature (singular surface)



the reason i was using 10Au was for a static volume to help claify the "expansion" i was talking about

If you bring the spheres closer together you might get some interaction different from this, but they would have to be pretty close, much closer than the moon is to the Earth.

well the issiue becomes "scale" surface area vs solar wind and density and speed are all important to the equation
remember the solar wind is traveling very fast. but im glad you can visualise the mass inertia created between the "earth and moon" because of the venturi effect, even if tiny on a solar wind scale.

add to equation of solar wind providing this combined curvature interaction
a three dimention expansion

in this senario the two curved surfaces working together to increase velocity in the solar wind,
now if that "solar wind" (between) the bodies was also expanding that too would increase the velocity of the solar wind because it would also have to increase velocity again to allow for expansion

that expansion is the red triangle in the original diagram

when these two forces are factored together, bodies a larger distence away from one another can interact at their inner curved surfaces and create the effect known as the venturi effect.

xploder
ps i hope that answers your question
phew again

i have drawn on your diagram to illistrate the effect



lets use air for now

the air flow has to increase velocity to "squeeze" between the round objects
and a low air pressure area is formed "between" the objects
"pulling" the objects together

the red lines show where this increase and decrease of velocity and corrosponding drop in pressure takes place
(for airodynamics)

According to the laws governing fluid dynamics, a fluid's velocity must increase as it passes through a constriction to satisfy the conservation of mass, while its pressure must decrease to satisfy the conservation of energy. Thus any gain in kinetic energy a fluid may accrue due to its increased velocity through a constriction is negated by a drop in pressure. An equation for the drop in pressure due to the Venturi effect may be derived from a combination of Bernoulli's principle and the continuity equation.

en.wikipedia.org...
xploder

Originally posted by XPLodER

According to the laws governing fluid dynamics, a fluid's velocity must increase as it passes through a constriction

Yes but the gap between the Earth and the moon is too large to be called a constriction

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by XPLodER

According to the laws governing fluid dynamics, a fluid's velocity must increase as it passes through a constriction

Yes but the gap between the Earth and the moon is too large to be called a constriction

well it depends on whats being constricted
it depends on the medium density (mass) and inertia (mass)
the speed of the medium density (velocity change of mass)
weather or not the medium is under thermal expansion

General volumetric thermal expansion coefficient
In the general case of a gas, liquid, or solid, the volumetric coefficient of thermal expansion is given by


The subscript p indicates that the pressure is held constant during the expansion, and the subscript "V" stresses that it is the volumetric (not linear) expansion that enters this general definition. In the case of a gas, the fact that the pressure is held constant is important, because the volume of a gas will vary appreciably with pressure as well as temperature. For a gas of low density this can be seen from the ideal gas law.

en.wikipedia.org...

under the right conditions i could (in theory) create a drop in "pressure" between the earth and the sun and create a mass inertia that forces the two bodies together.

xploder