we cannot be truly tolerant to islam

Somewhere in Europe, a leader will rise and offer a solution to problem of Islam on the continent. I am very this will happen.

I don't particularly like Islam(mainly because of all the radicals),but I think all they need is to be modernized a little bit.Just give it time.

But I wouldn't say in order to achieve that we need to kill them and be intolerable towards them.That's never a good thing.That will only make them hold onto their beliefs and become even more radical.It's pretty simple...U mess with someone...say something negative about them.. they'll probably lash out towards you.

Originally posted by megabyte

we say that in our western nations there is a freedom to practice your religion but there is no way to be truly tolerant to the practices of moslem people

I dont know if it is their cultural or religious ways that we are so intolerant about but here is a short list of things people from moslem countries want to do in western countires that we cannot tolerate

You will find that the majority of Muslims in Europe were born in Europe. The Muslims I know wouldn't really give two sheets about what you think and if you started forking with them they get out of their way and fork with you an yours. You want that kind of life then go for it with your list making and ultimatum making habits.

female circumcision

This is a predominantly African tradition with only a small fraction of Muslims practicing female circumcision largely because they are Africans. In the Jewish faith, mohel circumcise boys and suck the baby penis to sooth and to stop the bleeding. You know about the slander on Muslims but you don't know about the innate homosexuality in Christian priesthood and what circumcision entails in Judaism.

Female circumcision is classified as "haram" in Islam. Haram means forbidden.

honour killings

There is no such thing as honour killing in Islam. All murder is haram in Islam. Honour killing is a custom in the Asian subcontinant and is more widely practised in the Hindu tradition than Islam. It is a product of the Hindu caste system and used to enforce the prohibition of intercaste marriage. Pakistan was part of India until it separated and this custom was used to enforce tribal traditions.

In France you have crimes classified as "crimes of passion" in the Napoleonic Penal Codes and includes relatives killing each other, lovers and married couples committing the terrible crime of murder against each other. When Arabs and minorities commit this terrible crime in France, the press report it as an "honour killing" and when whites commit the same crime, it is a crime of passion!

child brides

In the Third World and even a few decades ago in the West, people married very young. They married as young as 12 years old and to this day a man can legally have sex with a 13 year in Spain or a 12 year old in Catholic Philippines.

en.wikipedia.org...

Mary had Jesus when she was 14 and the prophet Mohammad gave sanctuary to Aisha. When she was of age to marry, most of the menfolk in the tribe were dead or married already. Mohammad married Aisha to keep her safe under his name. Mohammad did not marry Aisha at age 4,6 or 9 as some haters claim. Women of anceint times normally stopped having children in their mid 20s and were grandmother in their mid thirties.

forced marriages

Forced marriages are forbidden in Islam and if a Muslim forces his child to marry he is committing a mortal sin. I think haters are deliberately confusing the customs of Asians and non-Muslim countries to facilitate slander.

eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth justice system

That phrase comes from the Bible and is a Jewish tradition. For a Muslim, this rule of an eye for an eye only applies to murder but no body on the planet executes as many people for murder as the US. You have the death penalty in most Muslim countries and a sentenced person can appeal to the courts for mercy or offer to pay blood money to the victim's family. The final decision rests with the victim's family and all Muslim's are obliged to show mercy as they would expect from God. As normally happens, most people fall short of the standards expected.

full face coverings [any criminal can use this as a disguise so it is not allowed to wear in many public places and of course when driving a car]

It rarely happens. Most criminals don't wear burkas or pretend to be trannies to rob banks or drive cars. You just have sour grapes. I don't particularly like these clothings but I think a woman should wear what ever she wants.

poligamy

Polygamy is illegal in Europe and is only practiced were it is legal. If a man decides he wants more than one wife and the women he is marrying do not object, what is it to you?

Anti-polygamy laws exist in Europe to prevent fraud but there is nothing in the Bible that bans it. King Solomon had many wives and hundreds of concubines. In Islam, concubines are not permitted.

You simply have a beef with Islam because you have been adequately propagandized. This allows for you to tolerate paying more tax to finance the wars in Muslim countries which were founded on lies. You have been made to hate Muslims in order to tolerate your government killing thousands of ordinary Muslims in their countries.

There have been agent provocateurs in Europe like Roberta Moore, a zionist Jew, who is fomenting religious strife in Europe. There are dozens of her kind in each European country stoking trouble for Muslim people. There is one of these creatures in New York called Pamela Geller a zionist Jew and there was also the zionist Jewess Orly Taitz, an Israeli national, who mobilised racists in America against Obama when Israel thought he was going to force peace between them and the Palestinians.

You are truly a victim of circumstances or you could simply be a zionist.

reply to post by Waldo64

Originally posted by Waldo64
Somewhere in Europe, a leader will rise and offer a solution to problem of Islam on the continent. I am very this will happen.

Didn't we go down that road a few decades ago (with a slight variation)? Didn't end very well, if I remember correctly.

Originally posted by Nammu
[
Well i personally know gay Muslims, lesbian Muslims, ones that dont go to mosque at all, ones that drink, smoke, take drugs, ones with strict hardline parents that have left the faith.

So you can say what you want FlyersFan, I know from experience your talking bull. I'm not saying some people in some countries don't, but you know that majority are not like that. People leave the faith all the time. I've seen it myself. You're utter hatred and tarring all Muslims with the Wahhabist brush is nothing short of disgusting. YOU are part of the problem here. Your hardline views and the opposite hardline views of those on the other side are the problem.

edit on 23-11-2010 by Nammu because: fixing quotes

Blahblahblah - when I see enraged demonstrations of moderate muslims shouting down the extremists, who are supposed to have 'hijacked' their 'religion' then I will take a blind bit of notice!

Until then I will use the common sense assumption that they are passive supporters and cheerleaders of the jihadists as all the polls, the evidence, and the koran suggests.

reply to post by Ilovecatbinlady

For a Muslim, this rule of an eye for an eye only applies to murder but no body on the planet executes as many people for murder as the US.

China (1700), Iran (388), Iraq (120) and Saudi Arabia (69) executed more people in 2009 than the US (52). Of course, your statement may be right if we take only people executed for murder.

Add blowing stuff up to that list.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Blahblahblah - when I see enraged demonstrations of moderate muslims shouting down the extremists, who are supposed to have 'hijacked' their 'religion' then I will take a blind bit of notice!

Blahblahbla to you too. No body is claiming that the Muslim religion is being hijacked. In Islam there is no priest class or a pope for there to be a hijack. Anyone declare themselves a Muslim and do what they want.

Why should Muslim chase around other Muslims when the majority of them are busy dealing with Israel.

Had there been no Israel, there would not have been the oppression of Palestine, no Dancing Israelis, no 9/11, no AIPAC, no Pollard, no USS Liberty attack...etc

Israeli is always wrong, Israel is always guilty of terrorism.

Originally posted by strato
Add blowing stuff up to that list.

Blowing things up like mossad?

Israeli Mossad trainee gets caught planting fake bomb under car

A trainee spy for Israel's secret service agency Mossad was arrested by Tel Aviv police while taking part in a training operation, media reports say.

The young trainee was spotted by a female passer-by as he planted a fake bomb under a vehicle in the city.

He was only able to persuade police he was a spy after being taken in by an officer for questioning on Monday.

The authorities have refused to comment on the story although Israeli media outlets have expressed their surprise.

'Just a drill'

Mossad does not tell local uniformed police about its training exercises.

newworldorderreport.com...


Huh! Training people to plant bombs under taxis?!!!!!

Do you remember a few years ago in Iraq with taxis mysteriously blowing up near US checkpoints, in front of schools, in front of hospitals and markets and people stood around scratching their heads? It stinks of Mossad.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Ilovecatbinlady

 

For a Muslim, this rule of an eye for an eye only applies to murder but no body on the planet executes as many people for murder as the US.

China (1700), Iran (388), Iraq (120) and Saudi Arabia (69) executed more people in 2009 than the US (52). Of course, your statement may be right if we take only people executed for murder.

The US has executed more people than any other county in the world but I think China is trying to catch up.

How about a link? This would be helpful and it allow us to examine your source.

reply to post by Ilovecatbinlady


Is Israel an integral part of your denial? Can you not defend Islam by its own merits?

No priests in Islam? What's an Imam then? Aren't Imams also spiritual leaders much in the same way that priests are? Don't they carry out sermons and suggest people how to live?

Also what you are basically saying is that the preoccupation with Israel (encouraged by their religious leaders) draws Muslims' attention away from their own internal problems.. That's not a good thing, now is it?

reply to post by Ilovecatbinlady


Here is the source:

en.wikipedia.org...

The US has executed more people than any other county in the world but I think China is trying to catch up.

How about a link? I would like to see your sources.

Yikes!

What a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding floating about in this thread!

First off, none of those reasons on that list in the OP are true, except for the polygamy bit, I guess, and if you assume a metaphorical understanding of "tooth for tooth"- If someone breaks your tooth it doesn't mean you get to break their tooth. In the case of murder, however, you can get retribution by having the criminal executed, but the Quran mentions that forgiving them is better.

And then people going on and on about the evils of Shariah law....making it plainly evident they have no idea what they're talking about. Just because a country is supposedly muslim, and has some laws, doesn't make those laws "Shariah". There is no codified, structured, fixed thing known as "shariah law".
It is like someone saying "I want good law". What does that even mean? Sure, shariah is supposed to follow the Islamic way, but if you told some people to write out the complete and total "Shariah", nobody would be able to do it, and if they did, no two versions would match. There are some things they all have in common, of course, such as divorce and marriage proceedings (although many even get THOSE wrong), and yes, even punishments such as whipping and chopping of hands for thieves under some conditions. Shariah law is certainly not the "founding concept of Islam and thus MUST be followed", and saying "the Quran is not as open to interpretation as the Bible is", is also patently false, seeing as there is a hadith where it is stated that there are at least 7 levels of interpretation of the Quran.

However, the "shariah" being implemented in the UK and such doesn't involve any of the criminal laws! Only civil ones, such as the marriage stuff and agreements between people. This is just to HELP OUT the muslim users of these systems, they're not trying to TAKE OVER YUOR SOULZZZ or anything absurd like that. For example, in Islam, marriage is a contract. So while a non-muslim may just get married and get a certificate or something if needed, and then if they desire, a pre-nup (although there seem to be social issues with that), in Islam, it is all rolled in to one.


And then we have this nonsense:

Originally posted by megabyte
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."

I mean seriously? SERIOUSLY?! I might as well try saying "Yeah, jews are evil because they eat christian babies, and then bathe in their blood" with a straight face, and expect people to take me seriously, because it is just as absurd a claim. The ONLY place you'll be seeing this claim is anti-islam websites, and if that is what you are using to get your information about Islam, then it isn't surprising that this thread has so much silliness in it. This isn't true either:
"the only reason there is no rape in islam culture is because whatever the man wants is legal so rape does not exist and besides - it takes 4 women to testify they witnessed the crime. "

Oh, and by the way, "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society" is NOT a quote from Aristotle, it is a falsely attributed quote.