we cannot be truly tolerant to islam

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood

No, we can be tolerant to Islam and Islam can be tolerant to us.

Wonderfull - we have a genius that is going to sort all this out - perhaps you would begin by explaining how aposty=death in the Koran, is going to be reconciled with freedom of religion in the West.

The same way that we tend to ignore the same in the bible maybe? It's no different. In Christianity/Judaism its also death for apostasy.

Deuteronomy 13:6-11

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

And anyways the Qu'ran doesn't say it's death at all. It says it's punishable by God. It doesn't say death. That part is debated by man, the scholars, who add their own interpretation and own punishments. Some scholars say it's punishable by death and some say no punishment until after death where Allah himself will be the judge.

I'm yet to see any Muslim here being killed for leaving Islam. And believe me i've known some who have left or became more secular for various reasons. It is compatible because the laws of the land supercede any religious laws. That will never change. Just like Christianity, different people choose different parts of the book and religion to follow. There is no difference.

Fact is they follow a religion based on a book written by a man they have never even met, then they have the cheek to preach to us. Same as the bible if ANYONE HERE BOTHERS to do there homework they will see ALL the original bibles where burnt, NONE of the bibles are to be taken serious, be4 or after they were burnt, they were created to control the masses and orginate from greek myths ect... they have been tampered with so many times same with the quran the one they read now which they claim to have never been changed has been changed THE ORIGINAL QURAN was to heavy for the people and was taken away and made easier for the people, being it was clearly to evil so it was lighterned up a bit.

People need to stop religion all together stop worshipping what you do not no, yes obv we need some rules but we dont need to be forced into something on the belief that our creator wants us to be unhappy slaves and if we dont obey he will send us somewhere horrible as punishment, he made us and should accept he didnt make us perfect and if anything punish himself for what he has created. I dont want to upset those who do have religions but the hole goes much deeper than that and to believe it doesnt is to imprision yourself.

reply to post by FermiFlux


The biggest problem with Islam is the Wahhabist movement. en.wikipedia.org... . This link may lesson the ignorance on ATS. Most moslems are law abiding people who respect the current cultural framework of the host country. ihave known moslems in the UK and USA since the 70s.

Well, thats the evil muslims youre talking about I guess.
From my own personal expirience I can tell you that all the muslims I know and have known,
none of the girls have been circumcised, none of them have been forcibly married, none of them have child brides, none of them have been involved or engaged in honour killings or, killing anyone , none of them live under an eye for eye justice system because they live in Europe.
All of them are normal people.
Yes they have their own ways, but so do we here in Spain and so do you over in the US and so does everyone.
Yes there is fanatical bastards out there, yes.
But you must be talking about the evil muslims, evil people, because I know muslims, some of them are my friends.

So, have you seen those christians that chastise themselves here in Spain?
Its a bloody sight. My grandmother is a catholic, but she dont go around chastising her self..lol
You see what I meen?

Originally posted by megabyte

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by megabyte

 

I agree. Human right violations should not be tolerated in religions. Islam is no exception.

full face coverings
poligamy

These two should be allowed IMHO, as long as it is not forced..

not when driving a car - that is when full face covering shoule never be allowed

the other reason is a valid one too - that crimes can be comitted by people who use the full face coverign as a disguise and so a lot of businesses are very watcnful if anyone walks in wearing full face covering

poligamy is unfair to women - I know guys would love it being married to as many women as they fancy but it is not fair to women and i would never ever share a man. its either me or get lost!

Polygami is fine as long as it isn't a forced lifestyle. If the First Wife is willing to bring another woman into the home then why shouldn't it be legal? As for the Facial Shrouds. I think they're fine too. If someone gets into a wreck while wearing one, then they may receive a ticket (Driving while impaired), but that'll be the risk they take. Nothing should be forced on anyone. Especially things that single out different sexes, races, or sexual orientations. Whatever happened to separation of church and state? Christian laws, Muslim laws, Jewish laws, etc should have no influence on Governmental Law, except to say that we are free to choose which ever we desire, or no religion all together.

Originally posted by Nammu

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood

No, we can be tolerant to Islam and Islam can be tolerant to us.

Wonderfull - we have a genius that is going to sort all this out - perhaps you would begin by explaining how aposty=death in the Koran, is going to be reconciled with freedom of religion in the West.

The same way that we tend to ignore the same in the bible maybe? It's no different. In Christianity/Judaism its also death for apostasy.

Deuteronomy 13:6-11

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

And anyways the Qu'ran doesn't say it's death at all. It says it's punishable by God. It doesn't say death. That part is debated by man, the scholars, who add their own interpretation and own punishments. Some scholars say it's punishable by death and some say no punishment until after death where Allah himself will be the judge.

I'm yet to see any Muslim here being killed for leaving Islam. And believe me i've known some who have left or became more secular for various reasons. It is compatible because the laws of the land supercede any religious laws. That will never change. Just like Christianity, different people choose different parts of the book and religion to follow. There is no difference.

edit on 22-11-2010 by Nammu because: fixing quotes

sorry but we are secular and only 8% go to church so tell me how the secular laws are the same as islam because what is in the bibile is totally irelevant in secular laws

Originally posted by megabyte
we say that in our western nations there is a freedom to practice your religion but there is no way to be truly tolerant to the practices of moslem people

I dont know if it is their cultural or religious ways that we are so intolerant about but here is a short list of things people from moslem countries want to do in western countires that we cannot tolerate

female circumcision

honour killings

child brides

forced marriages

eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth justice system

full face coverings [any criminal can use this as a disguise so it is not allowed to wear in many public places and of course when driving a car]

poligamy

so anyone from Moslem countries wanting to immigrate to a Western nation - please know that there are things we cannot be tolertant about ever. Stay in your own country if these things are important to you

anyone have anything to add to my list of things we cannot be tolerant about?

of course any moslem who wants to observe our laws to live in our countries will alwasy be welcome

edit on 22/11/10 by megabyte because: typo

change the above to
Male circumcision
dishonour killings ( 70 million christians killed by christians WW1 and 2 )
teenage prgnancies catholic priests residential shools ( and the weren't even kissed)
haff the people executed By GWB in Texas were innocent
the banker don't need maskes to rob you blind
mormons
and you are now desxcribing Chrispians
so....what the hell is your point bub?

Originally posted by Mactire

Originally posted by megabyte

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by megabyte

 

I agree. Human right violations should not be tolerated in religions. Islam is no exception.

full face coverings
poligamy

These two should be allowed IMHO, as long as it is not forced..

not when driving a car - that is when full face covering shoule never be allowed

the other reason is a valid one too - that crimes can be comitted by people who use the full face coverign as a disguise and so a lot of businesses are very watcnful if anyone walks in wearing full face covering

poligamy is unfair to women - I know guys would love it being married to as many women as they fancy but it is not fair to women and i would never ever share a man. its either me or get lost!

Polygami is fine as long as it isn't a forced lifestyle. If the First Wife is willing to bring another woman into the home then why shouldn't it be legal? As for the Facial Shrouds. I think they're fine too. If someone gets into a wreck while wearing one, then they may receive a ticket (Driving while impaired), but that'll be the risk they take. Nothing should be forced on anyone. Especially things that single out different sexes, races, or sexual orientations. Whatever happened to separation of church and state? Christian laws, Muslim laws, Jewish laws, etc should have no influence on Governmental Law, except to say that we are free to choose which ever we desire, or no religion all together.

what if a woman driver wearing a full face veil kills someone in a car accident? would you just give her a ticket or would you insist that all drivers have good vision which is unhindered by any head wear?

even today a wife can agree to a husband having a de facto live in if she wants to but very few women want to

now if it was polyandry - I would be al for it!

why dont we make polyandry law in our country?

if you want poligamy then I insist on polyandry too

We should never be tolerant of anything that is a threat to our own culture.
We should never be tolerant of any group who has their own laws which conflict with ours.
Their women demand and get their photo ID Driver's license wearing their full face covering.
I must not go into my bank wearing sunglasses, but a muzzie can go in wearing that full length black sack and nothing is said. I am a criminal in my own land.

"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." ]/b]
~Aristotle

Originally posted by Nammu
It's no different. In Christianity/Judaism its also death for apostasy.

wrong. the old testament might hint at that, but the FACT is that no christian religion has that as it's law and no government on the planet has it as law that if you leave christianity you will die or that your family has a right to 'honor kill' you. It isn't preached by preachers, ministers, or priests .. unlike Islam that has Imams preaching that sort of thing and idiots who follow it.

I'm yet to see any Muslim here being killed for leaving Islam.

that's because all the dead ones are buried in the ground or their bodies are lost to time ....

If you really think Muslims aren't killed for leaving ... then I have a bridge to sell ya' in Brooklyn.

And of course you can be tolerant of your intolerant society and religion that encourages apathy and is lethargic in the face of constant moral injustices. Tolerance is the ability to accept things which you do not understand and might be foreign to what you have come to believe is acceptable.

But when was the last time you stopped to consider what you thought was acceptable? Can you, for a moment, step outside of your comfort bubble and inspect the elements which make up your belief system? Only a handful of people can actually do this but those that do realize that they are in no position to judge. For example, the US enforces capital punishment and it is one of only three countries of the American continents to recognize it as a form of legal punishment.

The US, again, who claims to be valiant protectors of freedom is the only country to have used atomic bombs, killing nearly 250,000 people. But the horrors have no stopped there, the country's action are still present today when we consider that they use any excuses it deems fit to invade other countries, against their will, and impose a government system which goes against their belief system. It also imposes sanction on countries which do not agree with their foreign policies and uses their economic influence to keep them down and out.

Freedom... No, I don't think you have any idea of what freedom actually means because as soon as someone else's belief system comes in contrast with your own you're up in arms ready to duke it out to prove your religious and moral superiority.

Originally posted by OhZone
We should never be tolerant of anything that is a threat to our own culture.
We should never be tolerant of any group who has their own laws which conflict with ours.
Their women demand and get their photo ID Driver's license wearing their full face covering.
I must not go into my bank wearing sunglasses, but a muzzie can go in wearing that full length black sack and nothing is said. I am a criminal in my own land.

"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." ]/b]
~Aristotle

Why would you want to wear sunglasses inside of a bank?
Unless it has a sun roof, of cos.
"We should never be tolerant of anything that is a threat to our own culture".

Dam, the woman wearing the veil scares me, I was right! When I was young and my mum used to take me out, whenever I saw a muslim woman I always yelled "look mummy a NINJA!"

"We should never be tolerant of any group who has their own laws which conflict with ours".

You meen like the government, with all of its secret society members?
Or you meen the guys who run Guantanamo Bay?
Or you meen GWB, who.......
Or you meen......

I think it's just like extreme forms of anything. Fundamentalism and extreme, unyielding adherence to dogma in any form is just not compatible with Western culture no matter what form it takes. That said, I agree with you that those Muslims who are super set on observing Sharia Law are probably best served by staying out of Western countries. I doubt that many of them are, though.

Originally posted by tiger5
reply to post by FermiFlux

 

The biggest problem with Islam is the Wahhabist movement. en.wikipedia.org... . This link may lesson the ignorance on ATS. Most moslems are law abiding people who respect the current cultural framework of the host country. ihave known moslems in the UK and USA since the 70s.

And who is funding all the European and US mosques?.................................yes its the Wahabbis and Salafists!

The whole strategy of the slow jihad is to 'boil the frog slowly' - don't to anything to wake the stupid infidels up until it is too late and we are in a majority - play the 'tiny minority of extremist' card until you areblue in the face!

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by megabyte

 

Oh pleeeaaasseeee, the majority of the worlds Muslims are extremely tolerant..

You are right...until you draw a cartoon of their Muhammad or criticize them, then you will see these "extremely tolerant" people burning down embassies and rioting in the streets calling for the beheading of infidels.

When you feel like your values and way of life is threatened by a new religion, you tend to try to suppress it.

That's why the Romans went off on the Christians. They thought circumcision was child abuse and nearly went to war over it. They liked their sex and love and 'stuff' just the way it was and it DID work for them, and they considered THEMSELVES civilized. The early Christians were talking about celibacy and not defending yourself and they were like "get these people OUT of here."

It's a culture clash. And it's historically been very bad when a group moves in with 'Our way or the highway" and you let them have their way...then they take the highways and everything in between too.

If Muslims like the West, FINE, come and be Western. By why move here, and gallop to change it?

Originally posted by hadriana
When you feel like your values and way of life is threatened by a new religion, you tend to try to suppress it.

That's why the Romans went off on the Christians. They thought circumcision was child abuse and nearly went to war over it. They liked their sex and love and 'stuff' just the way it was and it DID work for them, and they considered THEMSELVES civilized. The early Christians were talking about celibacy and not defending yourself and they were like "get these people OUT of here."

It's a culture clash. And it's historically been very bad when a group moves in with 'Our way or the highway" and you let them have their way...then they take the highways and everything in between too.

If Muslims like the West, FINE, come and be Western. By why move here, and gallop to change it?

Perfectly said, they wish to live In western countrys as the life style Is so much better - yet try to change It to their own rules. Ie If that happened the west would be as the country they left as not good enough.

Hypocrites Is the word I hear repeating lol. If there country Is so much better by their way and rules ... please have them explain why they filled In applications to move to other countrys?????????????????????????

reply to post by megabyte

sorry but we are secular and only 8% go to church so tell me how the secular laws are the same as islam because what is in the bibile is totally irelevant in secular laws

Sorry, but you're going to have to clarify your point further. The same applies to Islam. There's a whole bunch of secular Muslims too, that's my point. Someone asked how the Qu'aran saying apostasy=death (which is wrong anyway) could be compatible with Western society and i made the point that the bible says the same and we don't follow that. Sorry if i'm misunderstanding your point.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

wrong. the old testament might hint at that, but the FACT is that no christian religion has that as it's law and no government on the planet has it as law that if you leave christianity you will die or that your family has a right to 'honor kill' you. It isn't preached by preachers, ministers, or priests .. unlike Islam that has Imams preaching that sort of thing and idiots who follow it.

Double wrong. I know plenty of Muslims who left the faith. I know plenty with hardline Islamic parents that chose not to follow the faith themselves. None of them have been killed for this.......

that's because all the dead ones are buried in the ground or their bodies are lost to time ....

If you really think Muslims aren't killed for leaving ... then I have a bridge to sell ya' in Brooklyn.

Well i personally know gay Muslims, lesbian Muslims, ones that dont go to mosque at all, ones that drink, smoke, take drugs, ones with strict hardline parents that have left the faith.

So you can say what you want FlyersFan, I know from experience your talking bull. I'm not saying some people in some countries don't, but you know that majority are not like that. People leave the faith all the time. I've seen it myself. You're utter hatred and tarring all Muslims with the Wahhabist brush is nothing short of disgusting. YOU are part of the problem here. Your hardline views and the opposite hardline views of those on the other side are the problem.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

Originally posted by OhZone
Why would you want to wear sunglasses inside of a bank?
Unless it has a sun roof, of cos.

Because I was wearing them in the car and why should I take them off for just the few minutes that I am in the bank? This is Florida and people do not usually take sun glasses off for such a short time, and besides a lot of people have prescription sun glasses and so would have to change to regurlar for just those few minutes. Why shoud they do this?

Dam, the woman wearing the veil scares me, I was right! When I was young and my mum used to take me out, whenever I saw a muslim woman I always yelled "look mummy a NINJA!"

Do you think that this tradition should excusse this woman from showing her face to the security cameras in the bank? Do you think she should get her ID & driver's license with her face covered?

"We should never be tolerant of any group who has their own laws which conflict with ours".
-----------------------------------------------------------------
You meen like the government, with all of its secret society members?
Or you meen the guys who run Guantanamo Bay?
Or you meen GWB, who.......
Or you meen......

Those too, but they aren't the subject here.