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Originally posted by NorEaster What it indicates is that conscious thought (consciousness) is the result of the brain's activity, and that suggests that matter creates consciousness.
This aligns with the notion that consciousness is a form of information,
with information as the result of activity (something occurs and the fact emerges that it is occurring, occurred, once occurred), the brain's thinking, reacting, emoting being the activity that's being represented by the heavily textured information that we call consciousness.
The researcher sees one indication from this test result, but it also indicates other possibilities that have nothing to do with "free will" or whatever they were focusing on.
Originally posted by RRokkyy Ramana was saying J.Krishnamurti was not Realized.
Originally posted by midicon I see that you disagree with Krishnamurti, well at least with regard to his contention that thought gives rise to duality. And of course you are correct in this, it cannot be other than you have stated. I know this because I have had the direct experience of detachment.
This detachment or observation of thought preceded or facilitated the movement of consciousness from thought to self. although this movement or ‘shift’ seemed more like an approach from self to consciousness, if you know what I mean. This happened almost two years ago and it took me a week to get over it. In the sense that the immersion in self for me was so overpowering and overwhelming that I couldn’t think about it without breaking out in tears.
I posted an account of this on ATS, and yet I missed out the important precursor of detachment. I was too concerned I think with the profoundness and power of this immersion in self. I could expand on this experience i.e. the detachment from thought but if you too have experienced this then it may not be required. Let me ask you this, how can one avoid the total immersion in self?
All I could say was ''something has happened to me. I'm sure everyone thought I was having some sort of breakdown.
So my questions are…how does one avoid the immersion in self once detachment from thought has taken place?
And can one live like this in a detached state?
Also the idea that the two become one, what does this mean in the real sense?
it could go some way towards explaining what had happened to me.
Originally posted by Michael Cecil
Originally posted by RRokkyy Ramana was saying J.Krishnamurti was not Realized.
In other words, the Eastern perspective--which, to a large extent, focuses on WHO is "Realized" or not--in effect, resulting in the worship of the "self" as the source of Absolute Truth, rather than whether there is any such thing as "Realization" in the first place; is not all that better than the Western perspective which focuses on the preservation of the scientific PARADIGM in the description of consciousness--in effect, resulting in the worship of the 'thinker' as the source of Absolute Truth.
Mi cha el
Originally posted by RRokkyy You have your paradigm which you are comfortable with your
The purpose of worship is to become One with Object of Worship. So it does make a difference what level your Teacher is at. You cant worship a Non Fully Realized Being and gain any benefit.
The Guru/Disciple relationship once past the beginner stage or total ignorance stage is not about Wisdom in the Form of Words. It takes place on a Level Of SuperPhysics. It is about transmission of spiritual energy. And it is about the Guru Meditating the Disciple. The Guru does the Disciples Meditation for Him. The Guru is to be Worshiped as the Divine Person.
It is a Love Relationship. It is certainly one of the Great Enjoyments of Existence.
This makes Adi Das' Teaching Unique.
Yet no one is interested.
Well, this, of course, is the issue. And that can come about only with the knowledge that, no matter how intense is that immersion into the "bliss" of that kind of consciousness--and, on the very edge of that "bliss", there is a stark and horrifying terror--that is still a consequence of the duality originating in self-reflection.
It is written in the Upanishads that as soon as an other is noticed there is Fear. The Ego is fear as you describe above.
Originally posted by RRokkyy The Guru/Disciple relationship once past the beginner stage or total ignorance stage is not about Wisdom in the Form of Words. It takes place on a Level Of SuperPhysics. It is about transmission of spiritual energy. And it is about the Guru Meditating the Disciple. The Guru does the Disciples Meditation for Him. The Guru is to be Worshiped as the Divine Person. It is a Love Relationship. It is certainly one of the Great Enjoyments of Existence. Women find the Love aspect easily understandable. Men have difficulty with this and turn the spiritual process into one of concepts and the ascent of subtler states of consciousness.The Guru is a great advantage to the Devotee. Narcissus the Ego Self rejects the Guru and flees from him. (They refused Jesus),
Originally posted by filosophia I'd say close enough but reality is founded on Divine Consciousness as opposed to our consciousness, since the system still encloses our consciousness's. The distinction is that transcendental awareness is unified and that includes all of our consciousness's.
Originally posted by midicon
reply to post by Michael Cecil
Thanks again for your patience, I am a fool...
and finally I get the point. Your analysis of what I experienced makes perfect sense.
Of course I'll now wander off into some other misinterpretation of your observations. Can I ask you... this dimension of consciousnes that is not dual, i,e not of the self or of the thinker. How is observation, knowledge (I'm not sure which term to use here) of this accessed? How have you come to this?
Meditation is the understanding of the whole structure of the ‘me’, the self, the ego, and whether it is possible to be totally free of the self, not seek some super-self. The super-self is still the self. So meditation is something which is not a cultivated, determined, activity. – Jiddu Krishnamurti
Meditation is not mind, and mind cannot create meditation. Meditation is getting out of the mind, becoming a watcher of the mind, witnessing all the stuff that goes through the mind — the desires, imaginations, thoughts, dreams, all that goes on in the mind. You become simply a witness. Slowly slowly, this witnessing becomes stronger, becomes more centered, rooted. And suddenly you understand one thing: that you are one with the witnessing, not with the mind; that the mind is as much outside you as anything else. - Osho
Meditation demands an astonishingly alert mind; meditation is the understanding of the totality of life in which every form of fragmentation has ceased. Meditation is not control of thought, for when thought is controlled it breeds conflict in the mind, but when you understand the structure and origin of thought, which we have already been into, then thought will not interfere. That very understanding of the structure of thinking is its own discipline which is meditation. - Jiddu Krishnamurti
Meditation is to be aware of every thought and of every feeling, never to say it is right or wrong but just to watch it and move with it. In that watching you begin to understand the whole movement of thought and feeling. And out of this awareness comes silence. - Jiddu Krishnamurti
Meditation is one of the greatest arts in life - perhaps the greatest, and one cannot possibly learn it from anybody, that is the beauty of it. - Jiddu Krishnamurti
The meditator is different from meditation. As long as there is a meditator, there is no meditation. You understand all this? Because the meditator is concerned about himself - how he is progressing, what he is doing, 'I hope I will be better tomorrow', anxiety, in meditation there is no meditator. Once you have seen this, sir, for yourself, the beauty, the depth, the subtleties of it. - Krishnamurti
Meditation is not something that you practise for an hour or ten minutes and the rest of the day do your mischief. Meditation is the whole of life and that is the beauty of meditation, it is not something set aside, it covers and enters into all our activities and to all our thoughts and feelings. So it is not something that you practise or give attention to once a day or three times a day or ten times a day and the rest of the day live a life that is shoddy, neurotic, mischievous, violent - Krishnamurti
If you observe your own mind in what you call meditation, you will see that there is always a division, a contradiction between the thinker and the thought. As long as there is a thinker apart from thought, meditation is merely a ceaseless effort to overcome this contradiction. - Krishnamurti
Meditation must enter into every corner of our life, otherwise don't meditate, it has no meaning. - Krishnamurti
Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy He said meditation is not only just sitting down and meditating, but a state of mind one should be in all day, in whatever activity they are doing.
Do not say it is something "beyond" you, have you tried it? Without expectations?
I enjoy Krishnamurti very much...
Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
It seems you do have a mind and you are using it to think too much,
relying more on analytical and "logical" thinking versus actual experience and realization.