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Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy Alright! Gsheessh! It's as if every time you reply to one of my posts you are merely setting me up to tell me off!
Originally posted by midicon When you say…
“you are already, for that period of time, operating in that dimension of consciousness beyond the "self" and the 'thinker'.”.
Does this mean that we are constantly unconsciously moving between and operating in/from these different dimensions?
Do these dimensions some how overlap, or are they sharply defined?
How can we become more aware of this consciously, and see it somehow in our everyday relationship with ourselves and the world?
When you say… “I have received two very specific Revelations: The Vision of the "Son of man" (or the "Vision of Knowledge") and the Revelation of the "resurrection",” What led you to these revelations?
How was this knowledge revealed, i.e. in what form did it reveal itself?
What sort of impact did this have on you and your life?
These religious texts that you have understood through this revelation, why are they ‘couched’ in such obscure language/metaphor and symbolic imagery?
Don’t you think that you are ‘beating a dead horse’ in trying to convey your understanding to religious believers?
Have you had much success?
Would it not be more productive to bring this knowledge to the open minded…and in a sense…leave out the religious text interpretation?
Lastly, what questions do you think I should ask?
Is it enough just to understand this three dimensional revelation?
If so, then where does one go from where I am right now?
Originally posted by midicon You have mentioned the gospel of Thomas and Mary. I have never read these texts. Should I read this sort of literature and try and see the three dimensional revelation contained within them?
Would there be any value in reading them if I have through you, access to the revelation contained within them?
Is there any further understanding to be gained and would it somehow help facilitate observation from/in or movement to the two dimensional conscious state?
Is 'fear' and 'desire' necessary for relationship to the world?
Originally posted by midicon If I assume for the moment that this information is accurate, then it would be a revelation…the implications in a way are frightening...And then there are these words, revelation, prophecy and memories of past lives, none of which sit comfortably with me.
I am now continuously thinking about the three dimensions of consciousness and how the reality of them affects/effects me, not only that, but how this reality is revealed in the world around me.
I had an experience two years ago of moving from the dimension of thought to the dimension of self. I could not explain it to myself, although I sometimes thought of the phrase ‘shift in consciousness’ but they were only words really, they didn’t explain anything.
I’m still thinking about this.
Originally posted by Michael Cecil
reply to post by RRokkyy
Just a few problems with the video:
1) I had to stop a few minutes into the video. I could only take so much. I was being bored to tears.
2) He is using words to describe the experiences of a "self". Those words are like poetry or the lyrics of songs. What he is doing is lulling people to sleep with words which convey images of understanding; but which, fundamentally, do nothing more than provide pleasure to the "self". Of what importance are such experiences and words as to the understanding of reality?
3) It is a one-sided communication in which the audience has neither any opportunity nor any responsibility to engage in conversation. Their only responsibility and opportunity is merely to listen, like little children rather than adults, to those words and to be pleasured by those words; and, of course, to provide the required monies for that pleasure. The political parallel to this kind of relationship is a totalitarian fascism of one kind or another.
4) The point of this thread is to engage in an actual conversation or discussion about consciousness and reality; rather than merely to sit in rapt attention to what someone has to say, or to interact with others who have seen the video, but with no opportunity to interact with the person on the video itself. So, what is the point of placing a video of such a monologue on this thread of someone who is not involved in the discussion at all, but who is merely dictating his thoughts on the subject; and, more importantly, is not in any position to be challenged? That, in and of itself, is a manifestation of what kind of "teaching" is being provided: a 'teaching' which is merely dictated by a 'teacher' to a 'student'; something not to be questioned but merely to be believed unquestioningly because it is so obviously the 'truth'.
We don't need ATS for that.
And is thisconditioning towards totatalitarianism really something that the people on ATS want to be involved in?
Mi cha el
On April 25, 1972, the date of this talk, Franklin invited devotees, disciples, students and seekers to approach him for the first time at his Ashram(1) in Los Angeles. Agroup of about 30 people assembled in a newly renovated storefront at 6913 Melrose Avenue, in a Hollywood business district. As they arrived, they were ushered into a modestly sized hall, passing through the small bookstore that faced the street. There they sat quietly, waiting for the evening's event to begin. It was on this date that his public work truly began. Before this time, prior to the creation of his Ashram, he taught only a few intimates. But since that time he has been involved in a progressive and open communication and demonstration of the way of Truth, the way of the Siddhas or "Completed Ones," who come in the forms and activities of God. Once seated, Avatar Adi Da began to gaze silently around the room. He Radiated simplicity and ease. As He continued to sit, the room became thick with the feeling of Fullness characteristic of His physical Company. After a few minutes, He closed His eyes and sat quite still. Some of the people in the room also closed their eyes, while others continued gazing at Avatar Adi Da. Everyone showed their respect by remaining silent and attentive. After about an hour, Avatar Adi Da stretched His body from side to side, left to right, signaling the end of the silence. Then he spoke in an undertone barely audible to anyone but Himself, "Who will cast the first stone?" Then, addressing everyone in the room in a clear voice, He asked, "Everyone has understood?" As Avatar Adi Da spoke these words, the room was silent in response. Then a man near the back of the room stood up and declared that he had not understood. FRANKLIN: Are there any questions? (the people who were in attendance say the first statement of Adi Da was "Who will cast the first stone?" No one replied, so Franklin spoke again. FRANKLIN: Everyone has understood? QUESTION: I haven't understood. Explain it to me.2 FRANKLIN: Very good. What haven't you understood? QUESTION: Well, you said "Did everybody understand?" and everyone seemed to understand but me. Would you explain it to me? FRANKLIN: Explain what? QUESTION: Well, you could start with the word "understanding." FRANKLIN: Yes. There is a disturbance, dissatisfaction, some sensation that motivates a man to go to a teacher, read a book about philosophy, believe something, or do yoga.3 What we ordinarily think of as spirituality or religion is a way to get free of that sensation, that suffering that motivates us. So all paths, yogic methods, forms of seeking, beliefs, religion, grow out of this sensation, this subtle suffering. Ultimately, all these paths are attempting to get free of that sensation. That is the traditional goal. So all men are seeking, whether or not they are very sophisticated about it, using very specific methods, yoga, philosophy, religion, whatever. When that whole process of seeking begins to break down, the man no longer quite has the edge of his search left. He begins to suspect himself. He begins to doubt the whole process of his search. Then he is no longer fascinated with his search, his method, his yoga, his religion, his ordinary teacher. His attention begins to turn to this sensation that motivates his entire search. When a man begins to re cognizee, consciously to know again that subtle motivation, this is what I call "understanding." When he begins to see again the subtle forms of his own action, which are his suffering, that recognition is understanding. When this becomes absolute, perfect, when there is utterly, absolutely no dilemma, no form in consciousness interpreting the nature of existence to the individual, when there is no contraction, no fundamental suffering, no thing prior to consciousness, this is what I call "radical" understanding. It is only enjoyment. The traditions call this enjoyment the Self, the Heart,4 God Union, Satire,5 Nirvana,6 Heaven. But it is simply consciousness. There is no thing prior to consciousness. We are not some piece of Divinity seated inside the body, that somehow must get released from the body and go back to its spiritual Home and Source. There is no such entity. The Home and Source is also the very Nature of the "entity." There is consciousness, and the apparent entity is within consciousness. So that when consciousness begins to enjoy its own state or real nature, even in the midst of conditions, even where there is life, that is true understanding. When, no matter what event appears, there is only the enjoyment of consciousness itself, not transformed or modified by events, when no implication arises on the basis of events to change the nature of consciousness, that is "meditation." When there is fundamental enjoyment of consciousness, that is called "liberation." All of that is simply "understanding." There is a subtle contraction in the process of man, and it constantly changes the quality of consciousness. It creates the identification of consciousness with the contracted sense. That form, that body, that mentality. And in that act of identification, it differentiates itself from other forms, other beings. Then the rest of life is spent, through exploitation of the movement of desire, to overcome that creation. Through the movement that is desire we seek constantly to create a connection, a flow of force between the contracted identity and everything from which it has differentiated itself. Yoga, religion, spirituality, philosophy, all our strategies, even our simple psychological strategies, our lifestyles, have this same form. They are all attempts to release energy between this contracted, separated one and all from which it is differentiated. Thus, all ordinary activity is founded in this dilemma, this self created contraction. Traditional spiritual life is a search in this same form. There is dilemma, and there is the spiritual method, which is an attempt to overcome this dilemma. When the individual begins to see again the dilemma that motivates his method, that seeing is understanding. As long as he is simply seeking and has all kinds of motivation, fascination with his search, this is not understanding. This is dilemma itself. But where this dilemma is understood, there is the re cognition of a structure in consciousness, a separation. And when that separation is observed more and more directly, the person begins to see that what he is suffering is not something happening to him, but it is his own action. It is as if he is pinching himself without being aware of it. He is creating a subtle pain, and, worse than the pain, a continuous modification, which is "mind," which consciousness identifies as itself. The more he observes this, the more his search is abandoned, spontaneously, intelligently. He simply sees his motivation, his actual suffering. He can only live that suffering. It does not move, until conscious life becomes a crisis. Then he sees the entire motivation of life is based on a subtle activity in consciousness. That activity is avoidance, separation, a contraction at the root, the origin, the "place" of consciousness. In the beginning of this crisis a man only observes the contraction as a sensation, as a sense of dilemma, as a search. But the more directly he observes it, the more clearly he recognizes the action itself. At first he sees the avoidance, the strategy, the life technique. Then he begins to observe this activity in terms of what it is excluding, what it prevents, what is always being eliminated from consciousness and conscious life. That which is always excluded is the condition of relationship. Ordinarily, a man is unaware of relationship, as relationship. He only lives the drama of separation. But when he becomes directly aware of this contraction, this separation, this subtle form, he observes or enjoys relationship as that condition which is always already the case. Relationship is always already the condition of living consciousness. When this contraction is observed perfectly, radically, there is only relationship, and no obstruction. Then, spontaneously, it is also perfect awareness. That perfect awareness is called the Heart, the Real, what always already is the case. The Heart is always active, always accomplishing the thing that desire always seeks but never finally realizes. The Heart 15 always unqualified relationship, always force, conscious force without obstruction. But the life of desire is always already based on separation. Separation has already occurred in the usual man, so desire tries to heal the sense that arises as a consequence of that separation. But there is no ultimate success by the means of desire, even "spiritual" forms of desire. There may be temporary releases, fascinations, but desire never radically escapes its own dilemma. This is because it does not deal with the dilemma. The search is concerned only with desire and the objects of desire. But beneath that is this subtle contraction. Therefore, the Heart is always, already the absolute continuum, the flow of power, without obstructions. It is always already like desire fully satisfied, because the flow is always already accomplished. Always already accomplished, not the result of any motivated action. The great Siddhas,7 men of radical understanding, are those who live consciously as the Heart. They function as the Heart for living beings. And that function is simply relation ship, unobstructed flow. The pressure of the presence of such a one stimulates and intensifies the flow of force in living beings. All obstructions tend to fall away in the presence of this force. Where it moves there is either surrender or flight in its path. The Siddhas communicate the living Force of Reality. They live it to living beings. They simply live the natural state of enjoyment with other beings. And those who stay to live in friendship with the man of understanding tend also to understand. QUESTION: Franklin, I have to go, but I have one more question. You said the Siddhas live as the heart. What about the mind? Do they live as the mind also? FRANKLIN: What is it? QUESTION: Do they live as the mind as well? It is connected with the heart. FRANKLIN: What mind? QUESTION: What mind? The mind that they exist in. There is only one mind. FRANKLIN: There is? Which? QUESTION: Of course their brains are functioning too. Right? FRANKLIN: And? QUESTION: And? FRANKLIN: What is the point you are trying to make? QUESTION Well, I asked you the question about the mind. FRANKLIN: Yes. What mind? QUESTION: What mind? FRANKLIN: The brain? QUESTION: Yes, the brain. FRANKLIN: Ah, well that is something very specific. You are talking about the brain, or the "One Mind"? QUESTION: Well, there is only one mind, of course. FRANKLIN: You are talking about the mind now, and not about the brain? QUESTION: Well, I was asking you what is the relationship between the two. Between the mind, the brain and the heart. FRANKLIN: You are talking about the physical heart? QUESTION: Not necessarily. FRANKLIN: Well, which? QUESTION: You can answer whichever way you like. FRANKLIN: I do not have need for the answer. What specifically are you asking? QUESTION: Well, actually you answered me, because I wanted to see what you wanted to say. FRANKLIN: No, that is not what you wanted to see. Don't play games. I am not here to entertain. All these little dramas you are playing have no place. I have no interest in them, and neither have you. I am not here to "lay something on" to you. I am not concerned with that. If you want to discuss something with me for a real purpose, that is something else. But if you want to play at polemics, and idle cleverness QUESTION: That's not what I want. FRANKLIN: No, no. That is what you want. QUESTION: Do you think that is what I am trying to do? FRANKLIN: Yes. QUESTION: Why do you think that? FRANKLIN: What is all of that? (pointing to his expression) QUESTION: What is what? FRANKLIN: What has all of that (pointing to his expression) got to do with anything, hm? You are very upset. What are you upset about? QUESTION: I'm not upset at all. FRANKLIN: Yes you are, my friend. (to another) Does he look upset to you? ANOTHER: Yes. I recognize that. (to the questioner) You know what that is? It is fear stone cold fear.
Originally posted by RRokkyy You dont even believe in a state of permanent Enlightenment.
...or even the teaching of Jesus at its core.
Originally posted by NewAgeMan Forget our origins...
Originally posted by Most Infamous
reply to post by YouAreDreaming
Nice one. Interesting ideas, I wish I had joined in the debate earlier.
Originally posted by Most Infamous
Anyways, I think that Mr. YouAreDreaming has hit on a number of interesting points. The idea that Reality is based more on thought and consciousness than matter is an idea that is irrefutable for one who has awoken to his true self and to the true nature of the universe. Take a good look at what science calls "matter" or "reality". All the supposedly concrete objects of objective reality are nothing more than "thoughts" of concreteness. When you touch, see, hear, taste, or smell anything, it is nothing more than a neurological state of mind that tells you "I see, I hear, etc". What you see and what actually is does not have to correlate.
Originally posted by autowrench
So is Reality Real? Are we real, or are we simply a dream in the sub-concious mind of a vastly superior being? Or are we that dream, and then the dream is but another dream in another being?
Originally posted by YouAreDreaming The problem is our Scientific Paradigm simply rejects consciousness as having any relevance to reality...