Obama Care, Fascism or Feudalism, you make the call

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Self-improvement, in both the individual sense and the group sense, is a GOOD thing...

Agreed. Keep at it, and maybe you'll come to realize the actual results of well-intentioned tyranny.

Or that political collectivism is antithetical to morality and actually suppresses it, and that true compassion flows forth from the individual and can never be brought about through political coercion (but can certainly be suppressed by it).

I actually think you and I agree on fundamental values, but disagree on how they are realized.

It's a step up from inforeal's adorable post where he arrogates morality to himself merely for the presence of a political idea in his head, and calling everyone who disagrees with him "immoral". Of course, to be fair, one can't see a person's actions from an Internet forum, which is significant, as Mom always said actions speak louder than words.

For my part, in case anyone is curious, my political views are fairly close to those of the psychologist Carl Jung. Here's the relevant section from his Wiki article:

"Giving laws, wanting improvements, making things easier, has all become wrong and evil. May each one seek out his own way, the way leads to mutual love in community. Men will come to see and feel the similarity and communality of their ways." – Carl Jung in 'The Red Book'

Jung stressed the importance of individual rights in a person's relation to the state and society. He saw that the state was treated as "a quasi-animate personality from whom everything is expected" but that this personality was "only camouflage for those individuals who know how to manipulate it", and referred to the state as a form of slavery. He also thought that the state "swallowed up [people's] religious forces", and therefore that the state had "taken the place of God"—making it comparable to a religion in which "state slavery is a form of worship". Jung observed that "stage acts of [the] state" are comparable to religious displays: "Brass bands, flags, banners, parades and monster demonstrations are no different in principle from ecclesiastical processions, cannonades and fire to scare off demons". From Jung's perspective, this replacement of God with the state in a mass society led to the dislocation of the religious drive and resulted in the same fanaticism of the church-states of the Dark Ages—wherein the more the state is 'worshiped', the more freedom and morality are suppressed; this ultimately leaves the individual psychically undeveloped with extreme feelings of marginalization.

Much of the above comes from his book The Undiscovered Self, a short but incredibly insightful book I would recommend to anyone of any political, religious, or socioeconomic persuasion. Yeah, I read books. You know, self-improvement.

My beliefs are sincere. They are not the same as yours, but they are sincere. But you kids are welcome to keep calling me immoral for disagreeing with you on an Internet forum.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Did it ever occur to ANYONE that universal healthcare (that actually works) is the sign of a truly advanced and civilized society??? There are certain things that should NOT be based on profit and greed, and the health and well being of a society should be near the top of that list! Health for profit is just a piss poor way to do things, PERIOD!

I agree with you sir - However I think we are too primitive to distinguish HEALTH and place it outside the concept of money making activities, less providing, some what like a sacred cow or realm in society. It is my opinion that basic health and water are the two things that should not be subject to the regular capitalistic model as a venture to
to reap tremendous wealth. This does not mean that there cannot be an augmented private component to Healthcare or water, which would ensure that choice and competition remains. Almost ALL of us here in America
saw a doctor the day we came to this Earth and we will also likely be seen by a doctor during or immediately following the end of our life.

I saw your Star Trek avatar Jaxson and thought if the human race had to flee Earth on a Space Ship, we could not continue this ludicrous practice, Healthcare would be the same as water and air;

free to all or paid for by all, so wake up folks

Earth is a spaceship

reply to post by NewlyAwakened


No one is talking about political collectivism.

Where you were in the early twentieth century when they made children work 14 hours a day?

Black people were getting lynched in the south.
Woman couldn’t vote.

I imagine your Jungian principles would be against the COLLECTIVE eliminating those evils through democratic means.

We are a society of humans

We are not lone wolves running around in the woods

Its nothing wrong with attempting to eliminate suffering as much as we could

You call that collectivism
I call it love and brotherhood, and humanhood and the intelligence to realize that what happens in society affects us all.


And I wouldn’t prevent people like you who want to go off in the woods and be on your own

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by Rynocerous7

 

It’s not a left right paradigm
It is unfortunately to most people.

It’s a good versus evil paradigm
What is good to one can be evil to another.

It’s a generousness versus selfishness paradigm
Too much generosity can create dependence, and there is no freedom in dependence.

It’s an intelligence versus ignorance paradigm
Is any version of "intelligence" absolute and compatible with the innumerable points of view on this planet?

It’s a love versus hate paradigm
Love is great, but in this reality can we honestly expect everyone to love eachother?

It’s a peace versus war paradigm
Peace is not profitable, and will not allowed to be unfortunately

It’s good to feed people
It's also good to teach people to be able to acquire the means to feed themselves.

It’s good to provide a good living for people
It's good for people to provide a good living for themselves, and not depend on others unless absolutely necessary

It’s good to provide health care for people
I wish that were economically feasible

It’s good to provide education for people
Education in this country sucks, how about we improve it?

It’s good to help each other
That it is

And it is ultimately evil to do the opposite
What is evil depends on your point of view

reply to post by Rynocerous7


The problem with your excuses against doing basic fundamental things to maintain a civilized society and help each other is that they are philosophical abstractions that you are applying to concrete problems that actually have simple solutions.


Certainly good and evil have their degree of complexity in theory but the basic issues that we are dealing with are about life and death not intellectual abstractions.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Did it ever occur to ANYONE that universal healthcare (that actually works) is the sign of a truly advanced and civilized society??? There are certain things that should NOT be based on profit and greed, and the health and well being of a society should be near the top of that list! Health for profit is just a piss poor way to do things, PERIOD!

This!

Outside of South Africa, we are the only modern Western nation in the world without a universal and free healthcare system. Admittedly we are larger population-wise so it is harder to organize, but it's a travesty that we are one of the few civilized nations in the world that lacks one. Despicable and intolerable come to mind.

If you think otherwise, then I hope for your sake you never get terminally ill and bankrupted (life ruined) by millions of dollars you'll never be able to pay back for you and your family.

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by Rynocerous7

 

The problem with your excuses against doing basic fundamental things to maintain a civilized society and help each other is that they are philosophical abstractions that you are applying to concrete problems that actually have simple solutions.


There are no simple solutions to these concrete problems in modern society. Look at what's happening in Europe (and here in the U.S. in many ways) for example. The whole let the state and taxpayer take care of you idea isn't working out so well is it? So many people have become dependent on the system that it's collapsing under it's own weight. If you can just rely on others to take care of you how do you advance as a person? What sort of behavior are you encouraging? I'm not saying let's cut off people who genuinely need help, lets help them get back on their feet and weed out the people who are leeching off the system because of their laziness and expectancy.

Originally posted by DavidKrabs


Teaparty people are destroying America through their ignorance, backward thinking, and obstructionist tactics. If they actually knew anything about the health care package they'd know it was for the American people's best interest.

And the politicians have their* own superior health care system because???

*Since 'we' are paying for it should be equal to what 'we' get.

Ya know, I think that instead of listening to what others think about health care reform, I think that people should actually read it.

Health Care Bill

I don't think that it's fascism, or feudalism, I think that there are some things wrong with the bill, but I think that it does address some key things that should have been done a long time ago.

Let's have a poll. How many of you anti-"Obamacare" people have actually lived in a society that has universal healthcare?

Was there panic in the street? Nope. There were likely some lovely sidewalk cafés where people enjoyed their afternoons. Was the very fabric of society in ruins? Nope. There was likely people gathered enjoying some time together.
In the US there's this "We have a better work ethic" type stupidity that's prevalent. You have to work, all the time, because if you don't you can't afford to eat because you're paying silly prices for insurance for just about everything. How did this happen? Because the insurance companies lobbied to make it happen. You pay way too much. A far larger percentage of your paycheck goes to insurance companies than pretty much anywhere else in the world. Why? Because you are free? Because you have the dream to pursue happiness? Stop pursuing it, and actually experience it. Those countries with the evil "socialized medicine" have people who vacation for about four weeks a year. Do they work any less hard than you? Yes! Because they aren't feeding insurance companies! They use their spare money to actually enjoy life.

So you get sick. Your insurance company has kicked you to the curb because they (a) expect you to pay a very high deductible = Payment to stop them paying, even though you've already paid the premiums, (b) because they've found a loophole that allows them to not pay for your treatments (and they will...), (c) you are now a liability to their profits. Your treatments are $200,000 a year and the medications are $2,000 a month. You sell everything you have, you move into a trailer, you can barely afford to eat.... All in a days work for the mighty insurance companies. Why was the treatment so expensive? Because the insurance companies are putting the screws on the doctors/hospitals in liability insurance. The pharma guys are charging what they damned well feel like. You're screwed by the very system that you are protecting.

Similar situation in pretty much every other civilized society? You get treated, and your prescriptions are covered. How much more does this cost you? Big question? Actually a lot less than you are paying now, all told.

If your medical insurance premium goes down by, say, 40%, but your taxes increase by 20%, you still have the option to spend that extra 20% on 'premium insurance' to get you pampered and powdered once an hour by beautiful models with medical degrees if you really want that.

Same as with the "don't tax the super rich" argument. It doesn't affect YOU in any way, shape or form, it is just an ideology that you've bought into. Unless you earn that kind of money, you're just voting for rich people. 99% of those who voted for the tax cuts to the top 1% are not in the top 1%. They just like the idea that they possibly one day could be.... Same with health care. You're against something that somebody who stands to lose some profits told you to be against.

Common sense, it's not just for the poor.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


No, I just BUILT the things I mentioned.

Maybe I should ask if YOU were public schooled.

Since everyone has COMPLETELY missed the POINT of the OP, that the way the system is being instituted, is a purely Feudalistic or Fascist system.

Since everyone is sooooo intelligent I guess the POINT was missed.

I wonder when I will get MY WAIVER.

Here is the list of the feudal entities that have been given lordship-

www.hhs.gov...

Boy, lots and lots of unions and Corporations. Well ain't that spaycial.

Originally posted by Evanescence
This!

Outside of South Africa, we are the only modern Western nation in the world without a universal and free healthcare system. Admittedly we are larger population-wise so it is harder to organize, but it's a travesty that we are one of the few civilized nations in the world that lacks one. Despicable and intolerable come to mind.

I don't really want to argue in this thread anymore because it's apparent I would have to write a book to get you people to understand the problem of scarcity, and why only economic liberty actually reduces scarcity, while socialized systems simply rearrange existing resources (with admittedly a little bit of meager production). But ya'all might benefit from studying economics; then you will realize the solutions are not nearly as neat and simple as you're telling yourselves in your minds.

For this reply though, I would like to bring up the simple fact that almost all of the modern medical techniques and technology used in socialized systems all over the world were developed right here in good ol' healthcare-capitalistic America. Coincidence? I think not.

I'd also like to add I hope you remember your post 10 years from now when the socialized systems around the world bankrupt themselves.

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
Since everyone has COMPLETELY missed the POINT of the OP, that the way the system is being instituted, is a purely Feudalistic or Fascist system.

Okay I'll bite.

I would say it's evolving into both, but each not for the same reason as you seem to imply in the OP.

The feudal elements stem from the fact that it's a centralized system that forces all providers into a pyramid-like hierarchy, and prevents individuals from getting healthcare without dealing with the bureaucracy. The idea that when you get sick, you go to a local doctor in your town, agree on a price, and he treats you, and you go on your merry way, and nobody else gets to stick their fingers in that transaction, and if you don't like your doctor you find another who perhaps does things completely differently and more to your liking, is already long gone. It has been a steady slide to medical regimentation, conformity, and bureaucracy for almost a century. Obamacare is just the next step.

The fascist elements stem from the fact that politically-connected corporations like drug companies and insurance companies get plenty of favors from the state. This has been going on in far more fields than just medical. The country as a whole has been sliding away from free-market capitalism, in which businesses are allowed to fail when they stop meeting consumer needs as well as others do, toward fascism, where some businesses with lots of power and influence magically become "too big to fail", essentially solidifying their position, creating monopoly privileges for themselves, and basically placing an alliance between powerful corporations and the government at the top of the dog pile.

It ain't gonna last. Human civilizations always seem to grow this way for some reason, but they eventually get top-heavy and everything comes crashing down in a series of crises of ever-increasing intensity. Has happened to every great civilization in history. To think it can't or won't happen to us is pure hubris.

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
reply to post by JaxonRoberts

 

I demand NOTHING from my fellow man or government except to LEAVE me alone. Leave my Property alone, leave my Life alone, leave my Liberty alone.

Some people just do not get it. These measures are available in other countries, why not move there? Oh I see, you want the US to look just like Greece. Gotcha.

Hey, why don't you move to California, they have all kinds of "civilized" attitude to fit your needs. They are so "civilized" as to give illegals the same rate of college tuition as state citizens, yet not the same as for someone say from Nevada. Such a civilized state. Only half a trillion in debt and in only two years, their pension system will dole out more money than comes from taxation. Hmmm, wonder how they are going to stay so "civilized".

I guess in the whole scheme of things, if the civilized world is what you can point to, I would rather be uncivilized.

But of course if I do not like your civilized world, My Property, My Life and My Labor will be stolen with a gun to my head.

Thanks for being so CIVILIZED.

no ones going to steal your corporate products from you or your serfdom to corporate interest(life) or your slave wages.

Remove the government if you don't want them to steal from you.

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower

I wonder when I will get MY WAIVER.

Your waiver to keep and maintain your insurance?

I'm almost shocked that you, of all people, would demand the government allow you to have healthcare. Then again you probably have no idea what these 'waivers' are for.

The collective feeling of the rightwing blogosphere and Fox; "Skippin' out of the mandate? Woo! Where's mine?!"

Originally posted by links234

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower

I wonder when I will get MY WAIVER.

Your waiver to keep and maintain your insurance?

I'm almost shocked that you, of all people, would demand the government allow you to have healthcare. Then again you probably have no idea what these 'waivers' are for.

The collective feeling of the rightwing blogosphere and Fox; "Skippin' out of the mandate? Woo! Where's mine?!"

WHAT A FRICKING JOKE!

You and the weened masses actually think we want something from the government. This is where we differentiate from you, those of us (true conservatives) want NOTHING from you. So why is it that you have to collect from us? OH that would be because we COST you nothing. We are the types that make you collective society exist.

HOW bout just leaving US alone? Oh, then you collective society would not EXIST. We are learning, do you actually think we are letting you absorb our money anymore? IDIOTS!

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


So you are in favor of dismantling the military? You are in favor of demolishing the interstate freeway system? You are in favor of doing away with Customs and let any country that wants to just pull up to a dock and unload anything it wants? You are in favor of doing away with any type of border enforcement? Are you truly that naive? Smaller Government is one thing... A less intrusive Government is one thing... But NO Govenment is... well, a stoneage mentality...

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


WOWWWWW!

Where will people get the FACTS from people like me.

I am a Constitutional Libertarian. Do you understand what that means? There is a list of Constitutional authorized components that the federal government is allowed to do. NOW, YOU and people LIKE YOU authorize our government to act JUST LIKE THE NAZIS!

Do you understand that? Or are you just a MAROON?

What gives the US government the RIGHT to dictate ANYTHING in any other government?

Why don't you tell me that mr know it all.