Basis, beliefs and cults, and the challenge of organized religion

Something that I have noticed here on ATS is that some people make claims that are without a basis, and far too many people just accept this statement as having more merit than it should. A basis is support for an idea that exists outside of the idea. For example, a basis for gravity is that things fall when we drop them. The falling object isn't gravity, but it lends support to the idea of gravity.

The fundamental problem of belief is that it can't go back to itself for its basis, except to the person with the belief (and sometimes, not even to them.) If you believe something -- say, that Jesus was an extraterrestrial -- that belief is not (well, should not be,) a convincing argument for anyone other than yourself. In addition, merely finding other people who believe the same thing as you is not evidence of anything other than evidence of belief.

This becomes problematic, because such a belief cannot be questioned. If one asks "why do you believe this?" the only answer available is "because I do," because there is no other basis. Take, for example, the "missile" of the coast of California recently. There is now a video of Colleen Thomas stating that this incident was the United States attempting to shoot down an alien spacecraft. Her proof? None. Her basis? That's what she believes. This should convince no one, and yet it most likely will.

I will say it again, for clarity. The fact that you believe something is not a reason, in any way, for anyone else to believe it. If your wife is a Christian, but you are not, her belief may make you think differently about Christianity, but it is no reason to start believing in it. If your parents are Muslim, it surely impacted the way that you were raised, but it is not a reason to just arbitrarily become (or stay) Muslim.

The counterpoint to this is a fundamental aspect of cults. Because the key beliefs of the leader rarely have their basis in evidence, members need to believe simply because the charismatic leader believes (or claims to believe, I'm sure that some leaders don't drink their own Kool-Aid.) This is further brokered by the dismissal of questions, ostensibly because "you have to have faith and not question!" but, in reality, the perspective is forced because there are no answers to the questions, because the belief lacks a basis.

When you are told to believe something and not question it, that is a fair sign that you are being told to believe something which is not believable, and for which there is no reasonable basis. When you are dismissed by statements that you are questioning things because you simply can't understand them, or you haven't been enlightened, or other things that don't respond to your questions, but merely discharge them, it is another fair sign that you are looking at a belief without basis.

There is nothing wrong with a person holding a belief that is without basis, of course. Millions do. But there is something wrong with people insisting that you believe what they believe, simply because they do. What proof did Marshall Applewhite have of a spacecraft in the tail of Hale-Bopp? None. Yet 38 Heaven's Gate believers followed him to their deaths, because they believed something without basis.

I am an Orthodox, Catholic leaning Protestant Christian. I have gone down many paths to get where I am today, but all of them have involved questioning my beliefs, and the beliefs of others, to determine what the basis of my faith truly is. The result (well, the current result,) is a strong faith that I can defend, not merely from a "because I believe" perspective, but from a rational, reasoned position that has basis beyond the belief.

Here in the ATS community, I would say that most of my best friends are non-believers, and I regularly participate in atheistic threads. Not because I want to change anyone's mind, but because their questions make me question, and the act of questioning requires me to have an answer, one which is thoughtful and defensible. I consider it the "benefit of doubt", and I'm thankful for the opportunity to refine and reflect upon my faith.

But I think that far too many people experience exactly the opposite when they encounter organized religion, and this is what drives some away. Ask a priest or a minister a tough question, and the worst answer I think that they can give is "you just need to have faith," as this goes back to the original point about basis. I agree that you need to have faith, but telling you so doesn't give it to you, and allowing that to be your only answer to a specific question is intellectually dishonest.

For those who may have experienced this from organized religion, please recognize that it is not endemic. If someone dismisses your questions, find someone else to ask, because the answer to your question should be as important to the person you ask as it is for you.

In my opinion, that is a sign of true faith.

“There will be no peace on Earth until My Son’s Kingdom. I will crush every kingdom now standing and rock the earth off it’s foundation. I Yahweh will destroy every enemy to My throne, and who can stop Me? Who can turn back My anger? No one.” – Yahweh

Christ Jesus said at Matthew 10:34 “Don’t assume that I came to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

While Satan works to maintain “peace on earth” and halt prophecy, mankind is alienated from God. What was prophesied long ago is currently taking place and will continue to until the battle of Armageddon.

Ezekiel 29:8 “Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: I am going to bring a sword against you and wipe out man and animal from you.”

Yes, that means God is angry.

Revelation 16:21 “Enormous hailstones, each weighing about 100 pounds, fell from heaven on the people, and they blasphemed God for the plague of hail because that plague was extremely severe.”

We are currently in the Tribulation and the severity is about to become much worse. If you think things are bad now, you can’t imagine how bad they will become.

Satan is not the cause of what is occurring in the world via natural disasters, plagues, pestilence, financial crisis and all the rest. It is Yahweh’s will and it comes directly from Him. He is the One in control, and the One whom is nature.

Psalm 83:18 “May they know that You alone – whose name is Yahweh – are the Most High over all the earth.”

Calamity will come upon mankind and it will be via Yahweh’s hand. Satan is powerless to stop Him and mankind is powerless to stop Him.

Ezekiel 28:23 “I will send a plague against her and bloodshed in her streets; the slain will fall within her, while the sword is against her on every side. Then they will know that I am the LORD.”

Yahweh is about to bring full rebellion to Satan’s empire. As hard as he works to try and keep peace, he will not be able to halt the people from rebelling against the governments. There is a reason the job failures and the staggering economy, and the lost homes. They are all designed to culminate against each government of every nation affected by this curse from God.

Malachi 1:4 “Though Edom says: “We have been devastated, but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of Hosts says this: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called a wicked country and the people the LORD has cursed forever.”

Satan will bring the nations back up from ruin for a short while, but they will not hold together. During that period of destruction, the people will curse God and seek their true benefactor that is opposed to Christ and Yahweh – Satan. The Antichrist will then make his appearance. The people will be awed by Satan’s regained powers and his strength to bring peace to this world of people. But it will not last. Yahweh will see to that.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!”

All of mankind is cursed except for the remnant. Think. How many people survived the Great Flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? It will not be any different. Those events were precursors to what will occur in these End Times.

Mark 11:12 “[ The Barren Fig Tree Is Cursed ] The next day when they came out from Bethany, He was hungry.”

Mark 11:21 “Then Peter remembered and said to Him, ” Rabbi, look! The fig tree that You cursed is withered.”

Satan’s family tree is barren and was cursed long ago. Mankind is withering under our Creator’s curse.

Jeremiah 17:5 “[ Curse and Blessing ] This is what the LORD says: Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, who makes [human] flesh his strength and turns his heart from the LORD.”

Mankind is under a curse and belongs to Satan. It requires effort – action on the part of anyone hearing this wake up call to get out of Satan’s empire. Those that have remained are to receive the plagues just ahead. Everything else has just been foreplay. The worst is just ahead, and it’s all from Yahweh.

When Satan’s empire totally crumbles out from under him and them as their Antichrist, this is what will happen:

Ezekiel 33:27 “Tell them this: This is what the Lord GOD says: As surely as I live, those who are in the ruins will fall by the sword, those in the open field I have given to wild animals to be devoured, and those in the strongholds and caves will die by plague.”

Ezekiel 38:22 “I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed. I will pour out torrential rain, hailstones, fire, and brimstone on him, as well as his troops and the many peoples who are with him.”

Habakkuk 3:5 “Plague goes before Him, and pestilence follows in His steps.”

That is the path Yahweh will lead Satan’s followers down.

Deuteronomy 28:16 “You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.”

There will be nowhere to hide.

For the so-called Christian churches that claim to reveal Yahweh’s Word in truth:

Revelation 2:23 “I will kill her children with the plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the One who examines minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works.”

They are cursed especially for their lying conduct in reference to Yahweh and Christ. Remember when Yahweh killed the first born males of ancient Egypt? Now He will kill the children of Satan that make up the false churches.

1 Chronicles 21:27 “Then the LORD spoke to the angel, and he put his sword back into its sheath.”

The only way this will happen is if they repent and accept Yahweh for who He really is – in Truth.

Otherwise, those churches professing to be true Christians will go the way of the rest of cursed mankind.

Revelation 2:11 “Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. The victor will never be harmed by the second death.”

reply to post by ReginaAdonnaAaron


Well, I'm not really sure why you posted that here, but "End Times" proclamations do kind of fall into the "believe because I believe" realm. People have been waiting since the time of Paul for Christ's return and forecast said return, on scant data, for almost 2,000 years. It ALWAYS seems imminent, no matter what's going on at the time, because the signs of the end are somewhat generic and can almost always be seen as happening.

It will happen, no doubt, and it may happen tomorrow, but beyond being spiritually ready (as in "being right with God") I see no reason to fret about it, or have it play any role in how I live my life and plan for the future. Christ said that only God knows when this time will be, and I'm content to leave it in his hands.

reply to post by adjensen
adjensen,

What is wrong with organized Christianity is the fact it is asleep. No reproof is given in them anymore. The wrong spirit has taken them captive. How can any become an overcomer when they are taught to believe they can't. Saved in sin is a lie. Can one truly overcome? Yes Christ in you all things are possibe, even overcoming our sins.

Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

They get what they ask for, NOTHING.

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Isa 56:10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

Do as the Bereans,

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so

Demand the truth and not smooth fables and lies.

Truthiron.

I'm guessing the other posters to your thread missed the point. Let me be the first to give a meaningful post to your topic. There is nothing wrong with believing what you believe, so long as you don't try to force that belief down someone's throat. As a christian, I am friends with people of all walks of life. Christians, catholics, agnostics, atheists, makes no difference to me. I am only responsible for myself. I always tell them, do what you do, I am here if you have questions. I am here as a friend. Well said Adjensen

reply to post by adjensen


I appreciate the thread.

It is frustrating when posts are created that make proclamations without supporting evidence and then the poster is insulted or claims that you are attacking them if you ask for sources.

You are exactly right. An assertion is not proof. Whether that assertion is made by the poster or someone he is referencing is irrelevant. ATS seems to go in cycles of scholarship and their are certainly times when finding gold amongst the dross is more difficult.


Eric

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
As a christian, I am friends with people of all walks of life. Christians, catholics, agnostics, atheists, makes no difference to me. I am only responsible for myself. I always tell them, do what you do, I am here if you have questions. I am here as a friend.

An excellent attitude, TEW, one that I share. A person's relationship (or lack thereof) with God is between them and he, and those two alone. As you say, anyone has any questions, I'm ready to explain what I believe and why, and if someone misstates something about Christianity, I will correct it, but part of loving others, as Christ teaches, is recognizing that the Spirit comes to other people on different terms than it came to me, and I show disrespect to both them and God when I demand that they conform to me.

Originally posted by EricD
You are exactly right. An assertion is not proof. Whether that assertion is made by the poster or someone he is referencing is irrelevant. ATS seems to go in cycles of scholarship and their are certainly times when finding gold amongst the dross is more difficult.

Thanks, Eric, that is exactly my point. There are a number of wise and insightful people on ATS, but there is far too much idle speculation and random thinking that has little to no value. As much as we grouse about the mass media, its value lies in the application of a "quality control filter" that weeds out most of the crap (sadly, it also weeds out important stuff, so one can't solely rely on them,) and the first layer of filter is exactly what this thread is about -- "does this claim have any basis?"