God's Stance on Abortion

I recently got into an interesting discussion with my Father. He's a fundamentalist Christian and often espouses viewpoints similar to those touted by people like Pat Roberston and Christine O'Donnell and other well known fundamentalists. I asked him who he was going to vote for and he said he would vote for a completely pro-life ticket... So I asked him: "Where in the Bible does it say God doesn't like abortion?" ... he said "Its in there somewhere"

"But where?" I asked "Surely not in the Old testament"

"Yeah," he replied, "in the Old testament"

My problem with this is that the Old Testament God kills innocent children in the Old Testament numerous times. It doesn't make sense for a deity to be willing to commit genocide against the first born children in Egypt if he is against abortion. I don't get it. Now if my Father had said the New Testament I could see where he would get that from. Jesus never kills kids and actually seems very fond of them and also tells people to turn the other cheek. Jesus is far removed from the spiteful angry God who decides to punish the innocent of Egypt, or drown innocent children and animals in the Flood, or command the Israelites to go out and slaughter the Amalekites including the infants, or summoning bears to slaughter kids that made fun of Elisha, killing Job's children, etc.

So my question to fundamentalists is: Where does it say that abortion is wrong in the Bible or that God is against abortion?

And my follow up to that is:

If its in the Old Testament how can you justify the other Old Testament laws (such as the one that says those that work on the Sabbath should be killed) and the fact that the Old Testament God doesn't mind shedding the blood of children?

You got it spot on, but fundamentalists frequently make up what they want religious texts to say if the texts don't say it.

BTW: I never really thought of it that way - excellent post.

The only times in the Bible where God would have destroyed children is when he was passing a judgement. Otherwise, God was very clear on how he felt about unborn fetuses.

Exodus 21:22, 23 "If people, when brawling, hurt a pregnant woman and she suffers a miscarriage but no further harm is done, the person responsible will pay compensation as fixed by the woman's master, paying as much as much as the judges decide. If further harm is done, however, you will award life for life" Psalms 139: 15,16, "my being held no secrets from you, when I was being formed in secret, textured in the depths of the earth. Your eyes could see my embryo. In your book all my days where inscribed, every one that was fixed is there."

Today, we hardly have the qualifications to judge an unborn life. We are in no way equal to God. Otherwise, we would be accepting the first lie ever told; Gen 3:5 "God knows in fact that the day you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good from evil."

As far as differences between the Hebrew and Christian Greek scriptures, Jesus did away with the law by his sacrifice. Example... Christians no longer do animal sacrifices. So don't be confused by the old law. Hebrews 10: 9-10 "and then he says: Here I am! I am coming to do your will. He is abolishing the first sort to establish the second. And this will was for us to be made holy by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ made once and for all." Rom. 10:4 "But the Law has found its fulfillment in Christ so that all who have faith will be justified." Col. 2:16,17 "Then never let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink, or about observance of annual festivals, New Moons or Sabbaths. These are only a shadow of what was coming: the reality is the body of Christ."

Jesus was quite clear about the subject of bloodshed when he addressed Peter in the Garden of Gethsemane when Peter tried to kill one of those who were about to apprehend Jesus. Matthew 26:52 "Jesus then said, 'Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.'"

Truth is, we never really know what god wants or his stance on anything, purely because we are (supposedly) on a lower vibration than god.
And yes, drives me insane when the fundamentalists twist things, but the bible was made by people, so who knows which parts are true or not?

reply to post by CodeRed3D

the person responsible will pay compensation as fixed by the woman's master, paying as much as much as the judges decide.

Looks like you need to read the verse in context with the rest of the chapter. Exodus 21 sets up rules for slavery and talks about how bad you can beat your slave. The keyword in the verses you gave here is MASTER. The pregnant woman being described is a slave and the fetus being protected is a future slave (according to Exodus 21:4). If in order to claim that God is against abortion you need to invoke a verse speaking about slavery there is a problem. So God is against abortion IF the woman is a slave.

We are in no way equal to God.

We are certainly not equal to the Old Testament God. If his idea of "passing judgement" is committing unspeakable genocide than I am thankful we are not equal to God. I also find the defense that God was passing righteous judgement to be based on extremely poor reasoning for several reasons.

1) Such a scenario cannot apply to the killing of innocents such as the first born of Egypt or the infants that were killed in the Flood. Surely the innocent are not sinners, surely they are not deserving of death at the hands of a loving God.

2) God sets up rules in the Old Testament, such as Thou Shalt Not Kill but manages to break that rule and commands the Israelites to break that rule all the time. A God not following the rules of man is one thing but a God who cannot follow his own rules is a false God indeed. This is especially true if we view God as a Father. What sort of double-standards is he setting for his children by telling people not to commit murder but then commanding the Israelites to go out and slaughter the Amalekites down to the last child?

So don't be confused by the old law.

Good advice for all Fundamentalists who still cling to the Old Testament as if any of it were true.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I've always thought of "thou shalt not kill" as including abortion, since abortion is killing, so I'd say it's included under that verse. I'm too lazy to check the reference, but I think it's in Exodus 20, somewhere.

reply to post by DragonsDemesne


Okay, I can see how that would work.

So far this is the best answer I've received

However Yahweh does kill people and order the killing of people in the Old Testament. What is your opinion on the Old Testament God's seemingly lax stance when it comes to that Commandment?

Eve ate from the tree of knowledge and so was therefore granted free will just like Adam so wouldn't that mean god is in fact pro-choice?

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by DragonsDemesne

 

Okay, I can see how that would work.

So far this is the best answer I've received

However Yahweh does kill people and order the killing of people in the Old Testament. What is your opinion on the Old Testament God's seemingly lax stance when it comes to that Commandment?

Personally, I'd go with the "Love God, love everyone else" teaching of Christ. Abortion, even for most who would say that they are pro-choice, would be kind of considered the antithesis of loving others.

Once you get out of the mire of Deuteronomy and Leviticus (come on, my friend, join me in the good news :-) specific admonishments aren't really all that pervasive. Some put that down to interpretation ("It's okay to kill, if you are justified",) while I put it down to rational inclusivity. Why say "don't abort babies", "don't stab people", "don't beat to death", when just saying "love everyone, which means no killing, no matter how 'right' you think you are, or how 'wrong' you think the other is."

Personally, I refuse to vote blindly on the basis of a single issue, as this marginalizes the voter, but you'd be pretty hard pressed to say that your father is incorrect for thinking that abortion is against his beliefs. And telling a fundamentalist that "God killed children, so I guess it must be okay" is likely to draw a glare and a hearty "You are not God!", lol.

In the old testiment, killing was ok'd by God only when the people posed a direct threat to Israel. Do we call our soldiers evil for defending our country? Even if it's a pre-emptive strike? I sure don't, and I don't see any reason for God to do so either. It's not a double standard, it's God having the foresight to protect His people. In the bible, we also see people who don't always do the right thing. David was a rapist and murderer, but God said he was a man after His own heart. David screwed up. He sent one of the soldiers off to battle in the front lines so that he'd die and David could marry his wife. God wasn't ok with that, but yet He still forgave him. That shows grace.

Abortion is not ok because it is outright killing an innocent child. Unless you do it in self-defense (ie alien ninja baby hellbent on destruction of mankind or something) then the bible says it's wrong.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


In at least some of the cases, my opinion is that it happens when the alternative to killing is something even worse. In various Old Testament battles, for instance (or modern war) it is probably an equal or worse sin to allow somebody to kill you than it is to defend yourself and kill them. Of course, that doesn't explain all the cases in the OT, but I think it is justification for some of them.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Gods killing is justified.God brought us into existence, holds us in existence, and takes us out of existence.Your problem is, that you cant comprehend the over all story of salvation history.How god built a nation.

reply to post by oliveoil

Gods killing is justified.God brought us into existence

Sorry but that doesn't excuse the slaughter of innocent people and children. If I create a child that doesn't give me the right to kill that child.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Sorry but that doesn't excuse the slaughter of innocent people and children

. Who's to say that these children were innocent. they were the seeds of evil.Offspring of Cain.A malignant tumor.SIN.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull
Titen-Sxull,

Have you ever heard "Father knows best". That includes our Heavenly Father. Really our Heavenly Father does for sure. I read over all the replies and some answered your question well, I would advise reading them again.

We all live and learn and it's a pity so many times we don't learn except by experience. The Word of God is the best teacher on this earth and I hope you don't find that out too late.

Lot of times I didn't want to agree with old Dad also but later in life I found he was smarter than I thought.

Truthiron.

reply to post by oliveoil


Umm.. how about the vast majority of human beings on the Earth including every single Christian I've ever met? Its absurd to think that a child deserves to die because of what their parents did and yet Yahweh seems to think that the sons should be punished for the sins of the Father. Why is it that every single human being I've ever met has better morals than the God of the Old Testament? If you truly believe that some babies deserve to die I urge you to seek help and am honestly fearful to live in a world where attitudes like that still exist.

reply to post by truthiron

Have you ever heard "Father knows best". That includes our Heavenly Father. Really our Heavenly Father does for sure.

But the God of the Bible is a terrible Father. Also I don't think the "best" thing for the babies in the flood was to have their lungs filled with water... How anyone could defend this stuff is beyond me

The Word of God is the best teacher on this earth and I hope you don't find that out too late.

The Bible is not the Word of God. I did a whole thread about a year ago about just that subject. The Bible is a horrible guide morally, it teaches us to keep slaves, stone women who aren't virgins on their wedding night, force rape victims to marry their attackers, put people who work on the Sabbath to death and that things as simple as telling a lie and saying God's name wrong are offenses worthy of eternal punishment. I actually couldn't think of a worse book to take advice from... Helter Skelter maybe.

Here, I'll let me, from my blog a few months ago, explain the problem a bit better:

If any one of us decided to kill a kid, for whatever reason, you can bet we'd end up in prison for the rest of our lives. Yahweh, on the other hand, abides by an apparently different set of rules. What would constitute a sin of the highest order if a mortal committed it is apparently not a sin when a Holy and Loving God commits it. There in lies the conundrum as far as I'm concerned, exactly how does killing a child become LESS sinful when the being committing it is MORE Holy? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Should Yahweh really be allowed to breach his own commandments with impunity (and command the Israelites to do the same)?

Source

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Sorry but that doesn't excuse the slaughter of innocent people and children.

Straw man. The Psalmist states we are all born sinners.

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." ~ Psalm 51:5

Plus another way of looking at this is God is concerned more with the kingdom of heaven than with the world. If all children under the age of accountability are granted heaven then God would be taking them all instead of a "few" that would still love Him when they were older.

Lastly, I hate when people bring up the deaths of the Egyptian firstborn, but refuse to acknowledge that is was done as a judgment for all the Hebrew babies that were thrown into the Nile years earlier.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

The Bible is not the Word of God. I did a whole thread about a year ago about just that subject.

Heptadic Structure of the Bible 1 of 2

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The Psalmist states we are all born sinners.

Keyword there being: the Psalmist states, those words are not accredited to God in any way. Even if we pretend for a moment that those are God's official words it only paints God in a worse light. Assuming that Original Sin in the Garden is the reason babies are born sinners all God has to do is eliminate Original Sin by forgiving Adam and Eve.

Also, do you REALLY believe that babies are born with sin? So then all those babies that died in the Flood, and all babies who EVER died, ALL WENT TO HELL? Wow, what a loving God

What about abortion? The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, if all those babies are formed with sin already in the womb don't they deserve to die and be cast into hell? So then would God be for or against abortion?

Lastly, I hate when people bring up the deaths of the Egyptian firstborn, but refuse to acknowledge that is was done as a judgment for all the Hebrew babies that were thrown into the Nile years earlier.

I don't have to mention it. Revenge isn't an excuse for murdering children, especially not for a God that is supposed to be loving and merciful. Let me set up a hypothetical example:

Hitler kills one million Russian infants BUT he does it because the Russians killed one million German babies a few years before. Is Hitler justified in committing mass murder because someone did it to his country first?

The answer is an obvious no. It is not right for anyone, let alone a God that is meant to be righteous, to seek our petty vengeance and slaughter children wholesale. Reading the story in context actually makes it far worse for those that believe the story because not only is their God a murderer but he WANTED to kill the babies. Exodus has Yahweh repeatedly hardening Pharaoh's heart and preventing Pharaoh from letting the Israelites go, apparently just so God can go out and suck the life from thousands of infants.

The story wouldn't be so bad but knowing there are people out there who believe in a God who would murder children and still consider him righteous...

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by NOTurTypical


Keyword there being: the Psalmist states, those words are not accredited to God in any way.

It also states "ALL scripture is God-breathed." All would include Psalms.

Even if we pretend for a moment that those are God's official words it only paints God in a worse light. Assuming that Original Sin in the Garden is the reason babies are born sinners all God has to do is eliminate Original Sin by forgiving Adam and Eve.

Not if it was His plan before creation to redeem mankind through His Son to glorify Him. Which is what happened.

Also, do you REALLY believe that babies are born with sin?

Yes, we are all born in sin.

So then all those babies that died in the Flood, and all babies who EVER died, ALL WENT TO HELL? Wow, what a loving God.

Missed the part about "Age of accountability" huh?

What about abortion? The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, if all those babies are formed with sin already in the womb don't they deserve to die and be cast into hell? So then would God be for or against abortion?

See above.

I don't have to mention it. Revenge isn't an excuse for murdering children, especially not for a God that is supposed to be loving and merciful.

It's not "revenge", it's "justice". And it's the principle of sowing and reaping. You will reap what you sow. God is loving and merciful, but He is also just. Failing to acknowledge His justice is called "cherry picking".

Let me set up a hypothetical example:

It's a straw man example...

Hitler kills one million Russian infants BUT he does it because the Russians killed one million German babies a few years before. Is Hitler justified in committing mass murder because someone did it to his country first?

Hitler is not God. Since Hitler didn't create the life he has no authority to take it.

Exodus has Yahweh repeatedly hardening Pharaoh's heart and preventing Pharaoh from letting the Israelites go, apparently just so God can go out and suck the life from thousands of infants.

He didn't harden it at first, Pharaoh had the choice to let the Jews go, he refused.

The story wouldn't be so bad but knowing there are people out there who believe in a God who would murder children and still consider him righteous...

I let God be God, it's not my place to judge Him. He's the Creator, I'm just one of his creation. I have an eternity to ask all the "whys" I want to.