Chinese woman forced to abort 8-month-old fetus

I was born 4 and a half weeks early

... That wasn't an abortion it was infanticide.

And saying "They should have not got pregnant" is daft.... There isn't a 100% protection against pregnancy apart from sterilisation or abstinance.

As another poster said earlier, the rule isn't the same for all, it's a blurry line... some get fined, some get punished, some have their baby killed inside them and thrown in the trash...

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes

Yes I am.

Only in your mind, not on this board. Give it up already.

Trying to justify the murder of an unborn baby capable of surviving outside the womb just the same as a newborn that come at the end of 9 months equals an exercise in futility on your behalf. Your just making yourself look silly by continuing to defend this action by the Chinese government.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
Don't flatter yourself.

I don't need to flatter myself. I just re-read my posts, and that does the job for me.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
Meh. If you don't think there is anything wrong with killing an eight month old infant

Au contraire. I think that there is everything wrong with killing an 8 month old unborn child, just as I think it's wrong to kill a 3-month old unborn child; but, perhaps that is for another debate.

What I'm objecting to is the assertion by some posters, that it's somehow worse that this woman's unborn child was 8 months old, as opposed to, say, 7 months and 20 days.

That is all.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
then that's your own private ignorance. Not mine to educate you.

I don't need to be ''educated'', nor am I ignorant on this subject.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
I am, however curious about something. If the baby's age was well established....for example if we knew that it was eight months/three weeks,and five days, would that make a difference to you? Would the few extra days of the usual gestation period give you pause?

It wouldn't make a difference to me, personally.

I'd be just as disgusted if this woman had her unborn child forcibly terminated at any stage of it's fetal development.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
Suppose we forfeit using the term "child" to describe an eight month old. Are you willing to call it an infant? Is it a human infant? When the mother is in the labor room at nine months, but has yet to give birth, it is an infant? Or is it still just a fetus, remaining in the birth canal, unimportant and at the whim and mercy of those who decide who lives and who dies?

It's still a fetus at nine months, just before the mother gives birth.

As abortion is legal, then yes, an unborn child at that stage of fetal development should be treated exactly the same as at any stage of the pregnancy.

Personally speaking, I believe that a ''human'' and a ''child'' are created at conception.

However, that's just my personal opinion, and it doesn't match up with legal, biological or social definitions of the terms.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
Just a couple of more questions, if you will. I'm curious. Are you an advocate of infanticide? Are you a fan of genocide, also? Just wondering. If a country is committing infanticide to keep down it's population, is that a form of genocide?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, if you should be so inclined.

I'm not a fan of infanticide, nor am I a fan of genocide.

But, then again ( as previously intimated ), I'm not a fan of abortion.


There tends to be two schools of thought on the start of human life: One, is that life starts at biological conception, the other, is that life starts when the child is born, or is independent of it's mother.

Both of these opinions are based on provable, factual concepts, and it's up to the individual person to decide which one of these concepts they adhere to, when defining human life.


Any definition of human life between conception and birth, is based on arbitrary, non-factual personal opinions.

This is my objection; someone declaring an 8 month old fetus a ''child'', while happily supporting the termination of a 6 month old fetus ( presumably not a ''child'', in their own personal opinion ).

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Only in your mind, not on this board.

No, entirely in provable facts and definitions.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Trying to justify the murder of an unborn baby capable of surviving outside the womb just the same as a newborn that come at the end of 9 months equals an exercise in futility on your behalf. Your just making yourself look silly by continuing to defend this action by the Chinese government.

In no way am I justifying the forced abortion of this woman by the Chinese authorities.

I think you need to re-read my posts more thoroughly, if you've drawn that conclusion from the points that I've made on this issue.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


And, this is where you fail.

Next time - Just try sticking to the original topic and don't bother interjecting yourself into a post made to someone else, it doesn't do you any favors...

What I wrote was a RE-CAP of the original story to illustrate WHY it was a "horror story" and this was a DIRECT response to a comment of someone else.

You jumped into the middle of this without bothering to read [or understand] context and picked up on a point that was specific to that poster/comment and are now trying to extrapolate it to a larger picture to which you try to make a judgment on what I believe with regards to unborn children.

Seriously, move on... your point is moot and the continued justification only makes you appear incapable of comprehension.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by Kailassa
My youngest was born at 8 months.
He sure looked like a child to me. - one frightened baby, needing cuddling, needing sweet milk, needing the coating of buttery stuff wiped off him.

And what would you say to the doctor that aborted a 6-month-old fetus ?
Would you be arguing these points so vociferously ? I think not.
Thank you.

Are you saying you can't see any difference between forcefully killing a fetus the mother sees as her child, and providing an abortion for a mother who has chosen it?

As a therapist, I've had a gyneacologist confide in me about having to abort a late-term baby because the mother had cancer and saving her life would mean severely irradiating and poisoning the baby. He was a devout Catholic, and a very caring person, but had been put into the position of having to choose the lesser of two evils.
I'm sure the woman concerned was grateful to him for taking care of her.

You'd like to know what I said to him?
I said nothing memorable, just listened, and hugged him.

Originally posted by Kailassa
I guess the doctor and midwife were just ignorant, calling him a baby while checking his position and heartbeat during the birth.

I guess the doctors and nurses were ignorant, when they vacuumed the brains out of a 24-week-old infant, because it may interfere with the mother's life.

I guess you have no less ignorance than that which you attribute to the medical staff you mention.
You know nothing about me, yet you attack me for attitudes you imagine I hold.

Is this a mental problem or just trolling?

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Okay.

At first I got the impression that it is only the use of the word "child" in this context you are objecting to.
But it's more than that.

If you will, locate some pictures of a six week old fetus, and an eight month old one, and engage in a little comparison study on your own. See if there is a difference to you. If there is, you might want to think about reconsidering your position.

Peace Out.

Biologically and mentally, a fetus isn't a true child until at least a month after birth. Up until this point, it's still effectively in the same state as it was in utero.

This happens all the time in China. It's not an isolated incident. Women are forced to have abortions right up to the point of birth. There are stories about new born children being left to die as well. (orphanages are full of rescued babies) Being anything other than a first born child over there is dangerous for the child ... life threatening.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
Actually, it does. When a fetus is capable of sustaining it's own life outside the uterus, it is considered a viable life. The taking of that life in the manner described, should be felonious.

Aren't you just reinforcing my point ?

A fetus is not a child.

Stop pretending otherwise.

Isn't it just semantics.. a viable fetus is a child a baby an infant what ever you want to call it. At 8 months gestation this fetus/baby could have survived had it been allowed to be born. [baring any abnormalities]

That the government allows [insert your choices of words] to be killed is an abomination. Perhaps the couple should have been more careful and prevented pregnancy but since it happened and progressed as far as it did, it should not have been killed.

Unfortunately I and most of us don't have the answers.

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
Biologically and mentally, a fetus isn't a true child until at least a month after birth. Up until this point, it's still effectively in the same state as it was in utero.

Tell that to any mother, father that cuddles their new born baby.

Do you have any link to back this up?

when will people wake up. if my government came into my house and kidnapped my wife and forced her to have an abortion i would be all over the news as the worst spree killer in history starting with the doctors and working my way through all the officials involved with this atrocity. if i ever heard of a reason to have revolution then this would most definitely be it . god help us but we be in bed with a horrific foreign government.

reply to post by ShadeWolf

a fetus isn't a true child until at least a month after birth

Over the years I have read many misinformed and silly statements on the internet, and this one is right up there, seriously that is one of the most misinformed ignorant statements I have ever seen posted on ATS.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by ShadeWolf

 

a fetus isn't a true child until at least a month after birth

Over the years I have read many misinformed and silly statements on the internet, and this one is right up there, seriously that is one of the most misinformed ignorant statements I have ever seen posted on ATS.

I have to agree with this statement.

And to contradict you on this ShadeWolf I would like to state that a fetus becomes a child the moment you see that predictor stick turn blue. Believe me. We went through a miscarriage at 16 weeks and somehow it felt like we lost a child, not a fetus...

Peace

reply to post by Kailassa

Are you saying you can't see any difference between forcefully killing a fetus the mother sees as her child, and providing an abortion for a mother who has chosen it?

This truly is the essence of this whole story!! It doesn't matter what kind of measure you are going to apply in determining whether or not it was a child or a fetus. It's merely a definition. What matters is how that mother perceived it.........and she just lost a child. End of discussion.

Peace

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
Biologically and mentally, a fetus isn't a true child until at least a month after birth. Up until this point, it's still effectively in the same state as it was in utero.

Once you get to 'big school' the teachers will probably start teaching you human biology..... might be a good idea to ask Mommy and Daddy about it first because it looks like you might be in for a shock.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
This happens all the time in China. It's not an isolated incident. Women are forced to have abortions right up to the point of birth. There are stories about new born children being left to die as well. (orphanages are full of rescued babies) Being anything other than a first born child over there is dangerous for the child ... life threatening.

I think what you mean is in China: "Being anything other than a first born healthy male child over there is dangerous for the child".

I expect you already know a lot of firstborn girls in China are killed or abandoned so the couple can have a boy instead, leading to a huge shortage of women in China these days.

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
Biologically and mentally, a fetus isn't a true child until at least a month after birth. Up until this point, it's still effectively in the same state as it was in utero.

This statement is almost funny, but tell me, is this supposedly one month after a full term birth or one month after birth at any gestation.

I have given birth at 42 weeks, 38 weeks and 27 weeks.
All 3 had very distinct personalities at birth, not a month later.
However my preemie was behind developmentally at birth compared to what her brothers were at birth, and one month later she still was not where they were developmentally at birth, but she had emotions, and a personality.

Originally posted by ShadowAngel85Makes me wonder, why they #ed around to produce another child.

Umm... An accident which they didn't find out about until it was too late? Condoms do break. Seriously, think a little more before you post next time.

Originally posted by ShadowAngel85It was their own fault, they should've known better

Yeah! We should go down to Africa and FORCE ABORT each and every kid they have right? They're only going to starve to death! We should FORCE ABORT each and every soon to be crack addicted baby in slums in the states right? I mean it's the mothers fault and therefor should be taken out on the unborn child right? (Sarcasm of course.)

Your entire post ShadowAngel makes me sick. Because accidents happen, a child has to suffer? I can only hope that one day, you and everyone who starred your post get to experience what these two did. Make put a little real world perspective in your life.

This is wickedness beyond comprehension.

I suggest people start looking at the place of origin of the goods they buy before purchase. If its made in china then dont buy it. You are propping this evil up and allowing it to thrive by doing so.

As for some of the posters here pffft.. Shame on you!

A child is NOT a legal definition. Its NOT a dictionary definition. Its NOT a medical definition.

A child is a gift, our future.. We kill our children and there is no future and quite frankly we do not deserve one if we allow this evil to persist...