Serbian anti-gay protest, reflection of worldwide opinion.

Originally posted by Carseller4

I could care less about an individual's sexuality, but when they get together in groups and start demanding special rights, that's when I turn against them.

The only right I have heard about them wanting, is the right to marriage, and with the rate of divorce among heterosexuals, that right isn't even that "special" anymore.

Maybe it's something about being raised in Vancouver, but most people I know really don't care whether there is gay people around. It just is. They are just people. It has never been a big deal, and I still can't see what all the fuss is about.

reply to post by MrAtomicspace


Yes I do know how polls are conducted, it's listed above.

You stated this represents the majority of people, this is CLEARLY not true as YOU yourself have posted. Please tell me that I am wrong in stating that 895 people in NO way represent the majority of the world.

Your argument is flawed, it is a personal one and has NO weight when you actually add the facts, because there are NO facts. The arguments against homosexuality are theological and ideological.

If you want to continually state that "most" people are against homosexuality, then show me a statistic which includes MOST people. Not some random sampling.

~Keeper

Originally posted by MrAtomicspace
reply to post by Carseller4

 

I also do not care about a person orientation, it is their right to express themselves. But I am not as extremist in my views as you.

I'm against any group of people getting special rights. How is this extreme?

reply to post by Carseller4


I'm just gonna point out that blacks and women were required to fight for "special righs".

~Keeper

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I do not know who you are, or your level of knowledge. But I can tell you that from your arguments you haven't really impressed me. There are tons of mathematical derivations and facts behind the accuracy of polls. Depending on the population being affected by a certain variable, a poll could be done upon a sample of this population (in this case the population is big), or on the population itself (in this case there is a smaller population being affected by the variable, and it would be easier to poll everyone). That is just a simple explanation. Please tell me how you would go about asking every american's opinion? Furthermore, when a poll is done on a sample population, certain variables are introduced in the equation to minimize the error, so that it reflects the majority's opinion.

reply to post by Carseller4

I'm against any group of people getting special rights. How is this extreme?

All people have rights, it does not matter in what form they stand up for their rights.

reply to post by MrAtomicspace


This is why polls are flawed. You can't go about asking every American his or her opinion, it's impossible, therefore you can't go around saying that any poll represents the marjority.

Regardless of the math involved, that's just a hypothesis. It's basically saying, well based on what these 895 individuals responsed, we can conclude that 330 million people feel this way.

It's a flawed logical system, only usefull for elections and even then it's not accurate at all. Everybody has a different opinion, and if you are going to ask them a yes or no question, it must be asked TO THEM, or else you can't include some fake answer of what they "would" have answered if these variables were met.

ETA: I'm also not here to impress you, sorry if you thought I was trying.

~Keeper

Originally posted by MrAtomicspace
reply to post by Carseller4

 

I'm against any group of people getting special rights. How is this extreme?

All people have rights, it does not matter in what form they stand up for their rights.

Equal rights are not the same as special rights.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

This is why polls are flawed...

Regardless of the math involved,...

...they "would" have answered if these variables were met.

1. A good poll has an 2%-5% deviation
2. If you do not regard math, there is no other thing you will regard, therefore im wasting my time.
3. It shows you do not know what variables are used, and how it is logically correct, therefore you are wrong.

reply to post by Carseller4


Ok, I see your point now. Thank you for clearing that out.

reply to post by MrAtomicspace


I'm not wrong.

No matter how you look at it, it's still ONLY the opinion of 895 people.

You can't take that, add math and then say it equates to MOST people. MOST peole don't think like MOST people.

They think for themselves.

I'm sure if you actually took a poll of MOST Americans, you'd be surprised by the findings, regardless of what the topic is.

Trust me, I understand polling, I understand the variables and I understand QUITE a bit of math ( engineering and computer programming requires a good knowedge base) so I know where your coming from.

It's still ignorant to state that a poll conducted with 895 people is a realistic protrayal of the Majority. Especially when the polled populace represents less than 5% of the actual ammount of citizens.

~Keeper

reply to post by tothetenthpower

MOST peole don't think like MOST people.

Trust me, I understand polling, I understand the variables and I understand QUITE a bit of math ( engineering and computer programming requires a good knowedge base) so I know where your coming from.

It's still ignorant to state that a poll conducted with 895 people is a realistic protrayal of the Majority. Especially when the polled populace represents less than 5% of the actual ammount of citizens.

1. "MOST peole don't think like MOST people. " Do you want to rephrase that? It is arbitrary.
2. Your program does not require knowledge on polling whatsoever, but you should have basic knowledge of the math behind it, although it is not reflected in your arguments, I wonder what university you are in and what country/location. I am also an aerospace engineering student for that matter.
3. Again you do not seem to understand the basic knowledge, an engineer would not ask such a question. I can prove to you that 1% of the population can reflect the whole population within 2%-5% error. Although I dont have the time for that to do so.

reply to post by MrAtomicspace


I agree with you that it can be done too look that way.

But that would still only be a mathematical propability or hypothesis, not a factual real work application.

As far as what University I went to it was University Of Toronto, probably when you were just being born .

I hope your studies go well, I would not want to be in that line of business, far too much math and physics for my liking.

In any case, I'm much more interested in discussing your belief that gays should not adopt based on ethical issues. Care to continue with that conversation?

~Keeper

reply to post by tothetenthpower


UofT eh? I myself go to Ryerson. I also would like to remind you that I do not mean to offend you in any way whatsoever, especially since you are older than, it is not the way I was raised.

Concerning the topic, I believe that if a person is homosexual, it is their right. But they should not be given the right to adopt, for the same reason a person with down syndrome, or mental disability should not become a parent. By no way am I suggesting an homosexual person is same as a person with mental disability, but from the ethical point of view, in both cases parenting should not be allowed. What happens when that child starts understanding more, when they go to university/college, or if religion becomes an important part of their identity, will they deny their parents? These are some of the ethical issues related with homosexual parenting. Also I believe that an homosexual person should try become part of an heterosexual relations, although it might be horrible at first, after awhile it will get better. Everyone has difficulties in life, and we all must face them, although some people have it harder than others, those people will gain more in the end. Also when you will become old, there will come a time when you will ask yourself: what did I accomplish? What should I have changed in my life? And I think you know that no person on this Earth is perfect.

Originally posted by MrAtomicspace
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

UofT eh? I myself go to Ryerson. I also would like to remind you that I do not mean to offend you in any way whatsoever, especially since you are older than, it is not the way I was raised.

That's a fine institution, and none taken.

Concerning the topic, I believe that if a person is homosexual, it is their right. But they should not be given the right to adopt, for the same reason a person with down syndrome, or mental disability should not become a parent. By no way am I suggesting an homosexual person is same as a person with mental disability, but from the ethical point of view, in both cases parenting should not be allowed.

Well, you see you did compare homosexuals to downsyndrome people, or mentally disabled people. Homosexuals are NOT in any form defective and or mentally handicapped.

-
What happens when that child starts understanding more, when they go to university/college, or if religion becomes an important part of their identity, will they deny their parents?

Well the only experience I have with that are my own children, so allow me to add some perspective for you. My oldest is almost 20. She currently resides in BC going to University. Not once has she ever looked down upon homosexuals or us for that matter. She's actually a Born Again Christian ( we follow no religion in our home, but encourage all forms of spirituality, my 15 year old for example is a staunch Budhist, my husband an Atheist, and myself an agnostic, we don't judge.) and her religious beliefs in no way conflict with her love for her parents and her fellow human beings.

The first thing a religion teaches everybody is to not judge. She took that lesson.

These are some of the ethical issues related with homosexual parenting. Also I believe that an homosexual person should try become part of an heterosexual relations, although it might be horrible at first, after awhile it will get better.

No it won't. Thats my men in their 40's leave their wife and children for some man they've just recently met. Because they weren't happy living a lie. This is the thing about your perspective that doesn't make sense to me. You can't simply call sexual orientation a "trial" for somebody to deal with and overcome.

Did you overcome your homosexuality? I am assuming no, since you probably NEVER were a homosexual or had any of those feelings. It's not some switch you can turn off. Attraction is a chemical attraction, hardwired within you.

Why would you choose to live a lie? To be unhappy for the sake of other people's opinions?

Everyone has difficulties in life, and we all must face them, although some people have it harder than others, those people will gain more in the end.

This is true, but only applies to things that people are actually capable of changing. You can't undo gays my friend. People have tried and if you talk to any of these people, they are clearly brainwashed by those who've made them think that who they are is a bad thing.

Also when you will become old, there will come a time when you will ask yourself: what did I accomplish? What should I have changed in my life? And I think you know that no person on this Earth is perfect.

I am old my friend, and I have asked myself what I have accomplished, here's the short version.

I have sucessfully raised ( and currently raising) 4 children who are and will be productive members of society. For the sake of the argument I will also add that none of them are gay or show any signs of becoming homosexual.

I have succesfully built and maintained several different Canadian and America businesses who are currently flourishing.

I married one of the most respected Pediatricians in the country, and we both are involved and contribute a great deal of our time and wealth to our community.

To me, that's a life well spent. And being gay had nothing to do with it.

~Keeper

reply to post by MrAtomicspace



Homosexuality is in the same group and Judaisim.....society has been socially engineered so that any criticism of either and you are labelled anti-semite or a homophobe immediately.....absolute crap IMO

Why should we accept Homosexuality?

Why does the gay community force its views so publically and make every that criticises them feel guilty about it?

Gay activists cry out for equality and respect and to be cosidered "normal" (as much as they beleive it is possible) yet prance around on gay floats in the mardi-gras dressed as priest, nuns and the pope.....how the hell are you going to get respect when you as a community do not show it in return?

The term "homophobe" is one that gets thrown around very easily and lightly amonsgt the gay crowd.....funny that - I am yet to meet anyone that is pathologically scared of a gay person....its more a case of "homo-loathe" than "homo-phobe", I proudly proclaim to be the forma

Back in the 90's they wanted recognition for their relationships and they ended up getting them, now they are pushing their agenda for acceptance of "gay marriage" and in some places they are getting it....when will it end? dont we as hetro-sexuals have a right to be anti-gay? its democratic to have an opinion last time I checked.

So what next for the "gay-bricade" ? proportional representation in government? Compulsory gay-education programs? fines against people puclicly speaking out their opinions on anti-gay matters?

regardless of any documented proofs and data statistics you dont have to be Einstein to know that the majoruty of the world populace is anti gay!

thats the bottom line....thank God they cannot breed, thou gay-adoption is another obstacle to conquer.

a Proud and opinionated "homo-loathe"

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I would try to argue with you, but I am starting to see what you mean. It is just that most of us are not educated on this topic and we are somewhat ignorant. We also have the concept that kids raised by homosexual parents tend to do worse in life, well in your case that is of course not true. But I guess divorce is even worse for children, than being raised by homosexual parents, if being raised by homosexual parents was proven to be so. My main issue is that I find it repulsive for a guy to be homosexual, and its something I cannot change. Although I do respect you for what you have accomplished, and the difficulties which you have faced during past years.

reply to post by MrAtomicspace


Thank you for your kind words.

It's not so much that you are ignorant in terms of intelligence, but in terms of experience seeing how homosexuals parent children. It's not different than heterosexual parenting.

In my opinion, a home that provides love, education, understanding and opportunity is far better than no home at all.

Unfit parents are unfit because of who they are, not because of a label that society has chosen to give them. You're also right that divorce is a nasty thing which impacts children far more than most adults care to understand.

Obviously not being a homosexual, I understand your "repulsion". I would stress that you realize that your repulsion is based on the physical acts of homosexuals, the sex itself. You need to look past that and see the person, not the behaviour.

~Keeper

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Yes that is where "repulsion" relies at, it is very hard to do so. But thats my issue and it does not reflect in my attitude.

Who in their right mind would have a parade based on where they stick their sausage?