UFO "Crosses" Baffle Die-Hard Atheist!

Anyone that has read my threads and replies through the years knows that I'm a die-hard atheist who does not consider any religion to have any reality outside of the mind. Basically, religions are cults. But a lot of strange things happen on Planet Earth that tests the evidence against any religious deity, regardless of country of origin. I'm also very aware of the effects of pareidolia and have pointed it out here many times. The majority of humans are accepters and not questioners so it's a hard road dealing with believers. Every other week someone starts a thread here on Aliens and UFOs trying to mix "aliens" and human religions to which I do not subscribe and state my feelings about the subject.

So when I see a video such as the one titled:UFO Fleet Sign of the Cross over Florida August 14, 2005 and view the video at www.youtube.com... it just makes me wonder what the reality behind this phenomenon is. Of course, the first thought is that these are balloons that are tethered but when one sees the perfect formation of what is called a "christian cross" balloons just don't make it. A
"christian cross" did not originate with the mythical jesus as the Romans are alleged to have been using them prior to his "appearance".

The above video was videographed over Florida but similar UFO "crosses" have been video'ed over Mexico. I know up front that this thread may attract those who believe there is a connection between the religion of choice, christian, and alleged aliens which in my mind are both mythical. Aside from the religious, what do you other thinkers think? What's going on?

reply to post by The Shrike



[color=#F87217]Me thinx I see balloons! I wouldn't even begin to take this seriously!




s&f

The currents and eddies can bring some fortuitous moments.
The mind will relate like shapes with others in it's memory.

I think it is just coincidence and another one of those beautiful moments that the world gives us to enjoy (but few appreciate - or read too much into)?


question mark courtesy of 'The Cloud Appreciation Society'

I only see lights that could be intepreted as a cross. In fact, there is nothing to even say that they are "flying" or up in the air. That could simply be an array of LEDs through the fog. Most likely, it's a sign with lights in the formation of a cross that is in the distance, probably not in the sky at all. Of course it could be ET sent from heaven, but I think it's far more probable that it is something more worldly and natural in nature, maybe even embellished a little to fool viewers.

--airspoon

reply to post by The Shrike


logically - it is " too perfect " , or more accurately - too viewer specific

i dont have time for preparing pictoral examples - but assume the alleged cross is due north of the witness - he sees a " perfect " cross , yess ? as does a second witness who is again due north of the " object / formation " - he too sees a " perfect " cross

but witness # 3 & 4 who are respectivly due west and east of the alleged object will see just a line of 4 dots

and further witnesses at different compass points relative to the alleged object will see various distorted crosses

also - range to the alleged object will create further horizontal distortion - a person directly underneath it will see just a line of 3 dots above him

that is why IMHO it is " too perfect " - almost tailor made for the specific witness

now the " too perfect " argument is rarely valid - but given the overwhelming number of hoaxes and frauds - it has to be considered in this case

and before anyone attrempts to arge that the alleged formation may not be " flat " , sorry - the notion that different elements of it are at different ranges to the viewer - akin to the stars that form constelations

this argument only reinforces the witness specific nature of it - as it would look less like a cross to any othe the other witnesses except witness # 2

Originally posted by The Shrike
Every other week someone starts a thread here on Aliens and UFOs trying to mix "aliens" and human religions to which I do not subscribe and state my feelings about the subject.

www.fullmoon.nu...

those manifested abberrations (ufo crosses) could be what they are, crosses fomed by ufos'...and i dont find any problem with that...
ets/aliens/ufo's are realities that we humans are just now started to sink in our pscyche...slowly and surely...concepts of gods, religion hell, paradise, faith,, day of judgement dogmas and crosses are check valves for "them" to evaluate how far we have improved in our psychological development in terms of how to deal with them...

Originally posted by CitizenNum287119327
The currents and eddies can bring some fortuitous moments.
The mind will relate like shapes with others in it's memory.

I think it is just coincidence and another one of those beautiful moments that the world gives us to enjoy (but few appreciate - or read too much into)?


question mark courtesy of 'The Cloud Appreciation Society'

I appreciate what you say but let's get real: the video doesn't show the "balloons" breaking formation as you would expect where winds are of more velocity than at ground level. Besides, as I mentioned there are other videos from other locations so those currents and eddies don't get around much anymore!

BTW, thanks for that link to "The Cloud..." I've always been an enthusiast of cloud shapes and have taken some pretty good photos of some shapes. When people were trying to identify UFOs in paintings from the 1400s/1500s, I took photos of similarly-shaped clouds to show that the painters were just looking at a normal cloud and it was us, modern UFOnuts, who were making ridiculous claims. Then there was the documentary about a guy in a wheelchair that took thousands of photos of cloud shapes, over the edge!

Originally posted by enkira

Originally posted by The Shrike
Every other week someone starts a thread here on Aliens and UFOs trying to mix "aliens" and human religions to which I do not subscribe and state my feelings about the subject.

www.fullmoon.nu...

those manifested abberrations (ufo crosses) could be what they are, crosses fomed by ufos'...and i dont find any problem with that...ets/aliens/ufo's are realities that we humans are just now started to sink in our pscyche...slowly and surely...concepts of gods, religion hell, paradise, faith,, day of judgement dogmas and crosses are check valves for "them" to evaluate how far we have improved in our psychological development in terms of how to deal with them...

I don't think so. If aliens exist and occupy what we term UFOs, we have no concept of what they are, where they are from, etc. There is no evidence to think, as most humans do, that they are from far away places and travel here. And, it is my opinion, that the possible beings we call aliens are smarter than we could ever hope to be and they must know that religious believers can be manipulated since religions manipulate their minds already, i.e., mental slaves. Since there are no gods, hell, paradise, faith, day of judgement, dogmas, etc., the only humans that might give them trouble (if they're hell bent on controlling us) are people such as me, mentally strong with no beliefs, dealing only on daily reality. The religious believers will concentrate right off the bat in trying to get the "aliens" to verify their religious beliefs and, boy, are they going to be disappointed!

As to your link, I don't visit (past the first visit) such sites where the opening remarks are an insult to intelligence. I've pasted the opening remarks below with my comments.

Possibly 90% of those who study UFOs want them to exist and would be nothing less than delighted to find they contained genuine extra-terrestrial visitors.

Faulty thinking. First, 90% is an empty figure since there isn't 100%. And where does he get his stats? Did di do a survey? No one can say that what we term UFOs contain extra-terrestrial visitors. Meaningless.

Perhaps that phenomenon even accounts for a significant percentage of the evidence.

The only evidence we have so far is in the form of films/photos/videos. Not considered irrefutable evidence.

Anyone with any scientific training, though, is quickly frustrated by the tantalising quality of the evidence available. It is - to date at least - never quite enough to substantiate the UFOs beyond reasonable doubt and yet is often not flimsy enough to dismiss out of hand. In any case, it is not my purpose here to discuss any evidence.

UFOs exist, they are "real" and beyond reasonable doubt. Only a fool would deny their reality. This guy's a fool.

Originally posted by airspoon
I only see lights that could be intepreted as a cross. In fact, there is nothing to even say that they are "flying" or up in the air. That could simply be an array of LEDs through the fog. Most likely, it's a sign with lights in the formation of a cross that is in the distance, probably not in the sky at all. Of course it could be ET sent from heaven, but I think it's far more probable that it is something more worldly and natural in nature, maybe even embellished a little to fool viewers.

--airspoon

As I keep repeating, this is only one video of many showing the same type phenomenon and others show points of terrestrial reference. Here are other cross-shaped phenomenas:
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com... (Yes, window reflections are to be considered)
www.youtube.com... (ditto)
www.youtube.com...


Remember, I'm not making claims one way or the other, I'm just baffled by these shapes and other seemingly christian-type images such as the virgin, etc. And the reference bible that I use for research says that crosses were not used by the Romans, that they used a stake. You'll find the word (torture) "stake" mentioned in MATTHEW 27:32, MARK 15:21, LUKE 23:26, JOHN 19:17

Additionally, "'Torture stake' in Mt. 27:40 is used in connection with the execution of Jesus at Calvary, that is, Skull Place. There is no evidence that the Greek word stauros' here meant a cross such as the pagans used as a religious symbol for many centuries before Christ."

reply to post by The Shrike


In any of the videos posted by you, and the plethora of others, I still haven't seen any kind of convincing evidence to suggest that this "phenomenom" is anything more than an over-active imagination by those that deem it a phenomenon. "x's" are found in nature all over the place and it is a very fundamental shape, which might explain why is was used a symbol predating the Christian era and it's certainly why the Roman "crosses" took the form of a cross, without the top piece. I don't believe that the Romans used a simple stake, at least in the times of Christ's alleged death and there is even evidence (I believe) that they used more than just a simple stake, though I'd have to do a little research to confirm it (I'm just talking from the top of my head).

If people see a cross in the clouds or even their morning toast, they are likely to attribute it to some apparition, due to their own personal biases and the tendency for the mind to see what it wants to see.

Now, I'm not saying that this doesn't happen, only that I have not seen any supporting evidence of such a phenomenon and no, I don't consider those videos, or the plethora of other videos and pictures that I have seen, to be supporting evidence. Just because I have not seen evidence, does not mean that it exists because I have no seen any evidence to suggest that it doesn't happen either. However, as Carl Sagan put it so elegantly, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

Don't sweat it, I've seen people believe in much more crazy crap with even less evidence, in fact these people are at every Red Lobster in their Sunday's best on well, Sunday.



--airspoon

Originally posted by airspoon
reply to post by The Shrike

 

(snip)I don't believe that the Romans used a simple stake, at least in the times of Christ's alleged death and there is even evidence (I believe) that they used more than just a simple stake, though I'd have to do a little research to confirm it (I'm just talking from the top of my head).

I hijacked my own thread to assist you with your biblical research. I post below 2 photos of the text associated with "torture stake" in my Jehovah's Witness bible. I hope I didn't reverse the photos but if I did, you can still use the info.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8e37d563d2e6.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3e96919a7654.jpg[/atsimg]

I looked at my reply and saw that I goofed in the size of the photos although I've seen giant photos posted here. If what you see is enough, great. If you need to see the right side of each image say so and I'll reformat the photos. Sorry 'bout that.

What I see in all these are dubious looking youtube video's, most are overdubbed, all look like fabrications and I'd guess that many of them appeared soon after which ever was first on Youtube.

The more logical person in me COULD say that if these were real (I doubt it) then our space friends are having a little joke with the god squads, could they be saying that 'guess what people, you know you have believed in god and created a religion around it, well actually it was us that came down and you have made a huge mistake, it was just us and we are showing you that by these formations'.

You see for me that's a far more likely scenario, give it some thought, beings coming down in celestial chariots doing amazing things, in any civilisation back then they would have been deemed gods.

Thanks for posting about this. I guess I am a believer, if for no other reason than I see the beauty of God in everyday life. I can say I have gone back and forth on this issue, I wonder did people come from aliens? I've researched a lot of differing theories. The one I find most compelling comes from Fatima Portugal, otherwise known as the Miracle at Fatima. The Virgin Mary told these 3 little children that there is anger in Heaven and there would be signs from God, more specifically she said:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. "

I guess my point is, are these signs from Heaven that we need to open our eyes and hearts to Him? Isn't it kinda freaky that the Pope came out and said that if there aliens, they too are God's children? Why DOES the Vatican have a $500,000,000.00 telescope? Who knows. Of all the stories of doom and gloom, this one sticks with me the most. What do you think?

Originally posted by Califemme
Thanks for posting about this. I guess I am a believer, if for no other reason than I see the beauty of God in everyday life. I can say I have gone back and forth on this issue, I wonder did people come from aliens? I've researched a lot of differing theories. The one I find most compelling comes from Fatima Portugal, otherwise known as the Miracle at Fatima. The Virgin Mary told these 3 little children that there is anger in Heaven and there would be signs from God, more specifically she said:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. "

You're welcome. I'm not a believer and I see the beauty of nature. I do not even give one iota of my thinking to wondering if people came from aliens. The anthropological evidence does not include any connection to other than nature which we still don't understand in its entirety. The events at Fatima are curious but provide no solid answer and since we know that the christian religion with all of its personalities were created by humans, nothing associated with christianity can be given any worth. It's all in the believers' minds with nothing in real life to account for the myths, initiated by jews in the Mediterranean.

I guess my point is, are these signs from Heaven that we need to open our eyes and hearts to Him? Isn't it kinda freaky that the Pope came out and said that if there aliens, they too are God's children? Why DOES the Vatican have a $500,000,000.00 telescope? Who knows. Of all the stories of doom and gloom, this one sticks with me the most. What do you think?

edit on 8-10-2010 by Califemme because: Forgot to leave a point to all of it

Only religius believers can accept what you suggest since it is all articles of faith and do not affect those that are not mentally conditioned to accept religion control. The pope is not a special person, he was born in the same way you and I were. He was educated just as we were, learning from past history. Whatever he says is only for those religious believers who accept his words as authority over their lives. That Vatican telescope, BTW, was probably paid with American taxpayers money since a huge amount of taxpayers' money is given to the Vatican, usually covertly. We're talking trillion$!

Only religius believers can accept what you suggest since it is all articles of faith and do not affect those that are not mentally conditioned to accept religion control. The pope is not a special person, he was born in the same way you and I were. He was educated just as we were, learning from past history. Whatever he says is only for those religious believers who accept his words as authority over their lives. That Vatican telescope, BTW, was probably paid with American taxpayers money since a huge amount of taxpayers' money is given to the Vatican, usually covertly. We're talking trillion$!

Thanks for responding. Yeah, like I said, I'm in constant flux re the origins of human life. But I do find it weird that so many things in the Bible can be correlated to UFOs (bible-ufo.com), so I figure why couldn't God have created aliens too. And then there's this from the Bible:

"Luke 21:25 (King James Version) 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;"

Kinda sounds like what we are witnessing world wide. Also, in Revelations, it (basically) says that the apocalypse will happen after after a war with Israel, and that too, seems to be coming true. Iran sure seems pretty bent on "wiping them off the map" and I'm not sure how that happens without nuclear weapons. All of that info also seems to be falling into line with these doomsday prophecies, so I am "believeing" out of pure faith and hope that there is a God. I even say an extra prayer for my hubby, because he, like you is an atheist. I'm trying to get him to be more agnostic, but he just thinks it's all voodoo anyways. Oh well, at least we'll know soon about WW3, and the visit from aliens on October 13!!

Just to be safe, I think I'll say a prayer (voodoo!!) for you too, and maybe my empathy will help get you in with the Lord, you know, just in case

Sorry for all the spelling errors, how embarrassing !!

Originally posted by Califemme
snip
Thanks for responding. Yeah, like I said, I'm in constant flux re the origins of human life. But I do find it weird that so many things in the Bible can be correlated to UFOs (bible-ufo.com), so I figure why couldn't God have created aliens too. And then there's this from the Bible:

"Luke 21:25 (King James Version) 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;"

Thankfully, at 72 I'm at peace because I do not subscribe to any form of mental control except mine. I do not have a belief system; I either know or don't know. I've learned through research into the bible that it is not a book for the modern person. It was written a long time ago for the benefit of a particular race, mainly jewish men living in the area now called Israel. Quite a bit of the bible is made up stuff and material borrowed from other sources. There is not a single instance in which anything one reads in the bible can be connected to aerial objects aside from natural objects such as meteors, etc. Whatever you read about UFOs, etc., as being in the bible is strictly modern projection and is not meant for anyone other than those who require this kind of affirmation. I don't.

Kinda sounds like what we are witnessing world wide.

As we progress with technology making leaps and bounds, warfare is usually a given between TPTB. Control is the name of the game. Nature will always be nature: earthquakes, tsunamis.

Also, in Revelations, it (basically) says that the apocalypse will happen after after a war with Israel, and that too, seems to be coming true. Iran sure seems pretty bent on "wiping them off the map" and I'm not sure how that happens without nuclear weapons. All of that info also seems to be falling into line with these doomsday prophecies, so I am "believeing" out of pure faith and hope that there is a God. I even say an extra prayer for my hubby, because he, like you is an atheist. I'm trying to get him to be more agnostic, but he just thinks it's all voodoo anyways. Oh well, at least we'll know soon about WW3, and the visit from aliens on October 13!!

Since the new testament was written approx. 2,000 years ago, nothing in it applies to the present. No one, no human, can tell the future, then or now. I know that nothing I say can be held to be authoritarian but the truth is that there is no god and there never was and there will never be. God is a human creation and it exists only in the minds of those mentally conditioned to not be questioners. The Egyptians had their multitude of gods, so did the Romans, the Greeks, etc. All of those gods "died" with their believers. If instead of the christian Columbus having landed in the New World, it would have been the Egyptians, Romans, or Greeks, humans would now be praying to Ra, Horus, Hathor, Sekhmet, Nut, Geb, Osiris, Seth, Isis, Thoth, etc.

If it would have been the Romans humans would now be praying to Jupiter, Juno, Neptune, Pluto, Apollo, Diana, etc. If it would have been the Greeks humans would be praying to Chaos, Tartarus, Gaia, Eros, Erebus, Nyx, etc. And a ton more!

Just to be safe, I think I'll say a prayer (voodoo!!) for you too, and maybe my empathy will help get you in with the Lord, you know, just in case

The Doors - "The Soft Parade" Lyrics
"When I was back there in seminary school
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the lord with prayer
...
You cannot petition the lord with prayer!