I can't defend the welfare state any longer

reply to post by anglodemonicmatrix


That is a very narrow view upon a larger problem. This is like saying the problem with an engine that is misfiring, has water in its oil and a crack in it can all be summed up that it needs a tune-up.

While corporations (the mega ones, mind you...I am on a mission to get people to drop the stereotype that ALL corporations are bad.) do not pay an income tax, they do pay a capital gains tax. They pay their fair share and then some. Although with such restrictive tax policies to feed what Misoir is getting at, the warfare/welfare state, the Government has to introduce these taxes. Thus the cycle is created for these companies to move that money out of the country so they are not penalized for wanting to participate in one the best and most lucrative markets in the world.

Refocus anglo and do not narrow your thought on just your hatred of a certain entity, however justified it may be. There is always a bigger picture to the problems and cannot be solved solely by taxing more.

I second JPZ's comments about you Misoir. You have openly admitted to changing your mind right here in full public view.
That, my friend takes real courage. You do have a curious mind and are always willing to give other ideas a serious listen, something we all should do more often. You haven't been here on ATS all that long but consider yourself an important part of it, you constantly bring good questions and information to the table.

Per your post you are correct about the welfare=warfare state, they work hand in glove together.
There should be no reason why any capable person cannot find gainful employment nor for any person who is not capable of working to have the help of the state.
Our government has been busily thwarting the actual production of wealth through over regulation and taxation while simultaneously building the welfare state through inadequate education and determining many capable people as being disabled.
We have gone horribly wrong as a nation and will have to pay the piper eventually for all our excessive spending.
Let's hope the fallout does not ruin a once great nation.

reply to post by Misoir

They could not actually go to the people and say we need a 35% income tax to fund the warfare state and our empire because we would tell them hell no, but using the welfare state as a shield has permitted them to create this bloated nanny state.

I like how you worded this. Yes, expose the support card. remove this, then their MIC and everything else will fall.

reply to post by ownbestenemy

These stats are a few years old but in this year 275 of the Fortune 500 companies made a profit,the statuatory corporate tax rate is 35 percent yet these companies only paid 17.2 percent. 82 of these 275 companies paid zero or less despite having combined pre tax profit of 102 billion,as I said corporations are not paying what they should as they headquarter overseas or have armies of smart lawyers and accountants to avoid tax a goods and services tax guarantees they pay a fair share regardless of whatever skullduggery they do on their books.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Misoir

 

It's not delusional to want to do good for your fellow citizens. It is, however, misguided to believe that government would be a good steward of the downtrodden. Democrats are supposed to be the party of the poor guy, but when it comes down to it, poor people have been voting for democrats for 50+ years and they're still poor....

Best post I've seen today ... and one that democrats have no answer for.

Reason: The real democrat agenda is to keep their supporters poor and dependent on them (the government) for for their own support.



And kudos to Misoir for the courage to make the OP.

reply to post by anglodemonicmatrix


Since you do not wish to question your own statement, I assume you speaking of this often used quote by Senator Levin, "“Twenty-five percent of the largest U.S. corporations had $1.1 trillion in gross sales in 2005 and yet paid no federal income taxes.”

Am I correct?

Do you even know how either misleading and dishonest that statement is? First, businesses with a corporate tax structure do not pay taxes upon their sales nor does the business itself pay income taxes. They pay taxes on their profits. So even if they had $1.1 trillion in sales, if they only made say on average 7.7% in profit (Source - Data from 2007) and get taxed on those profits at 25% gives us around $21.1 billion dollars.

This doesn't include the taxes that the individuals pay out of their salaries, the capital gains taxes, the dividend taxes, the sales taxes, and on and on.

That isn't to say that companies do things like move assets off shore, but that is the product of the tax structure we have in the United States. Everything is taxed....ALL FOR NOTHING.

I do like the concept of a safety net for people who are down on their luck.

However, how do you keep that safety net from becoming a lifestyle?

That is the real fly in the ointment.

reply to post by Wildbob77


That's part of the problem, it's really impossible.

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by Wildbob77

 

That's part of the problem, it's really impossible.

Honestly, the only welfare that should exist that is truly sustainable as a lifestyle should be for children and the elderly. For adults, the only safety net that should exist is to keep them alive.

Access to health care and good education should be gained via a market that's actually affordable for people. How we obtain that well, I'm not an economist so I don't know the numbers and I'm a pacifist so I can't kill the people who are causing the problem.

reply to post by ownbestenemy

No I wasn't talking about sales I was talking about profits which are taxed at 35 per cent yet the fortune 500 companies that make a profit only pay 17.2 per cent,a goods and services tax YES is on sales that way the 225 or so Fortune 500 companies that dont make any profit whatsoever would pay their fair share and of the 275 that did make a profit would also pay a premium regardless of whatever offshore tax haven or Enron accounting they use.

reply to post by anglodemonicmatrix


Look, you are copying and pasting and not providing a link between your arguments and those made by the OP. To Misoir, I am sorry and I am not trying to hijack your post.

Since you don't want to take the time and source your information, which can be found here in a commentary: Source, Ill do it for you. This piece actually comes from a website called the Multinational Monitor (Yet I cannot seem to find the piece, maybe just not looking hard enough.)

Now again, you are missing the point of even that article. The deep rooted, under the hood ideas. Why are these companies seeking to find tax shelters to lower their effective taxes owed?

That and not understanding how a company structured as a corporation pays taxes to the Federal Government. Even me, after reading and researching for this article have become more confused but I understand that they have a far more complex system than an individual.

It also strikes me that you bemoan these corporations for having an effective tax rate of around 18% when we take in account the deductions they can take under current Federal Tax laws. The same for individuals. Yet I do not see you complaining that nearly 50% of the American population pays no income tax at all and actually get money back at the end of the year, effectively they are in a negative tax bracket.

From the IRS we see that the majority of companies filing as corporations had approximately $1.2 trillion of taxable income. Still looking at their data, I see that in total, approximately $430 billion was subjected to what the Federal Government deems is their share. So effectively, I see about a 30-32% tax rate. You still have to figure in that these companies will do what individuals do, utilize the tax credits afforded to them by the Federal Government. So after tax credits are applied, of the total taxable income, these companies paid out $353 billion in taxes to the Government. So about a 25% tax rate.

The article you are pulling your data from is skewing the data and pushing an agenda. Which is fine, that doesn't bother me, but the skewing the numbers and then cherry picking data to make it seem as if all corporations are not paying their taxes is dishonest.

I would like you to link your arguments though to the OP, as this is his post and you have yet to show how your arguments are relative to it.

I also ask you this....what exactly does any government need not only the $300 billion from corporate taxes, but another $1.02 trillion from the people and respectively persons operating a business that pays its taxes as an individual!

You are fretting about corporations when the Government is generating a trillion dollars from the general populace to fund what?

Keep your hatred focused though on those evil corporations....don't ever look to the Government as the source of the ills.

Originally posted by Alxandro
Congratulations to the op for realizing the cold hard fact that at some point you run out of other peoples' money.
This would be quickly followed by chaos and lawlessness.

What is the alternative?

I'm pretty sure that going back to having beggars and pick pockets, creates it's own chaos and lawlessness.

Suicide booths. Welcome to the future.

double post - my first ever...

reply to post by Misoir


Look at how much money is spent on defense and compare it to the amount spent on social programs.

That should be enough to end the argument that social programs cost more than defense programs.

Let's face it, America's in a huge rut and NO politician or political party will EVER be able to fix it, no matter what they tell you. We're screwed. End of the story.

reply to post by centurion1211


What's the Republican agenda? Cut taxes, cut them some more and keep cutting them until you can make off like robber barons in the middle of the night?

I see your signature and I question why anyone would to go back to 8 years of the Bush administration. Things were no better than they are now.

Nice work!

I heard this stated the other day: the left has nothing right and the right has nothing left. Think that about does it.

I think being mostly right, yet having just a little of government left is ideal.

Let's not forget "welfare" has many forms and not all are directed at the "poor".

USDA subsidies in the United States totaled $245.2 billion from 1995-2009.
From 1995 to 2009, the top 10 percent of recipients were paid 74 percent of all USDA subsidies.

farm.ewg.org...

I would be ostracized by friends and family, if they knew I was speaking out against farm subsidies. Though most of them do not need the money, they've developed the welfare mentality that, "if we don't take it, the government will just give it to someone else". And, unfortunately, that is true.

reply to post by badw0lf

I'm pretty sure that going back to having beggars and pick pockets, creates it's own chaos and lawlessness.

Are you under the impression that the U.S. doesn't have beggars and pickpockets these days? There are all forms of begging including institutionalized begging from the numerous non-profit organizations that exist in the U.S., but sticking with just panhandling, consider this:

An article written in 2008 for U.S.A. Today, titled; Cities Crack Down on Panhandling:

Panhandling on public transportation can get you a year in jail in Medford, Ore. Telling a lie while asking for money in Macon, Ga., is against the law. In Minneapolis, begging in groups has been banned. Cities across the USA are stepping up efforts to restrict panhandling, especially in downtown shopping areas.

The Center for Problem Oriented Policing has an article on Panhandling:

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, in 2009 wrote this article; No Walking Away From Panhandling Problem

The Seattle Post Intelligencer featured this article in 2007; How Do Panhandlers Spend Your Money?

In 2009 The Indiana Barrister featured an article titled; Panhandling Problems

The Town of Chappel Hill, North Carolina has an entire page featured in their official website on panhandling.

The Los Angeles Times recently reported on the courts okaying the barring of Hare Krishna's Panhandling at Airports

On and on and on there are numerous articles regarding panhandling.

As far as pickpocketing goes, and just staying with one city, that being The Big Apple New York City, The New York Times reported as far back as 2001 that:

That said, pickpocketing, like all other categories of crime, has declined in the last decade. In 1990, there were 23,068 reported incidents and an estimated $9,487,008 in property lost to pickpockets in the city, police statistics show. Five years later, those figures were halved. And last year, there were fewer than 5,000 incidents reported.

However, as recently as July of this year, The New York Post reported the disturbing news that the crime of pickpocketing was downgraded on police reports to being "lost property":

"Their position is that if a [victim] does not see his property being taken, then he does not have knowledge of a theft and hence, it's a 'lost property,' " said one police source. The alleged fudging of statistics has caused dozens of thefts -- including of wallets, cash and suitcases -- to go uninvestigated, according to internal reports and interviews with airport cops, crime victims and union officials. Read more: www.nypost.com...

And the website for the New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority features advice on how to deal with pickpockets:

Against Pickpockets Stay awake. A pickpocket's easiest victim is a sleeping passenger. If you feel drowsy, it's best to get up and stand, or take another seat. When you find yourself alone in an empty subway car, move to a car that has a conductor (usually in the center of the train), a train operator (front car), or other riders. Being alert and staying in a subway car with other people are always good precautions.

www.mta.info...

I don't know where you live in the United States that you think that begging and pickpocketing is a bygone behavior of a time prior to social welfare programs, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that begging and pickpocketing are just as prevalent today as they were before income taxation and the social welfare programs that followed.

I ran across this Misoir today, while rereading a book. I find it refreshing as it comes from a Conservative, but one of old as I have told you before.

He muses about what he would want to hear and acted out by a statesman (notice, there is a wide difference between a statesman and a politician in my mind).

Emphasis is mine

I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution, or that have failed in their purpose, or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is 'needed' before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents' 'interests,' I shall reply that I was informed their main interest is liberty and that is that cause I am doing the very best I can

- Conscience of a Conservative written by Barry Goldwater.

I know it is a long portion to read, but reading it sounds nothing like either Democrats nor Republicans of today. They would scoff at such a notion as being radical and out of step with what the American people 'want', rather what they mean to say is not 'want' but 'need.'

While I lean towards his thinking and his politics, I recommend that read to anyone for an understanding of how not only the Democrat party has been hijacked, but also the Republican party as well. All in the name of more power to the Government.

I once had a conversation with an old man at the flea market.

I stated that I was against a lot of the government control,over-regulation,corporate welfare....

He said that without all of that,we would have "Anarchy!"......

I stated "This is Anarchy!',just look around you......

A short time later,he died.

Nothing ever changes.

Teach your parents well.