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Creationism/Intelligent Design: PROVE IT!
page: 5share:
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
""""""""I've tried multiple times to put forth the vast mountains of evidence that support evolution, only to be ignored or to have these explanations waved away.
I've tried asking creationists what their specific problem is with evolution, only to not get many direct answers and to have my explanations of the problems again get waved away.
Well, evolution is a positive position, it requires proof, which I've tried to provide. Creationism/ID is also a positive position, so it also requires proof.
Lately, I've not seen a single person put forth an argument for the creationist perspective, I've only seen attacks on the evolutionary theory, as if disproving the evolutionary theory would immediately put the creationist/ID theory into the place of truthfulness. This is not true. You need to provide your own proof.
So, where is it? """"""""""
Well as for either case of origins no one can assuredly prove their case as no one mortal was around at the exact moment the earth was created, (or in an evolutionary believers case expanded and contracted).
Though there was someone who was in the spiritual God=Jesus, and six days later Adam and Eve.
Now with those who do not Believe that the Bible is the dictated word of God from beginning to end with out error must understand it is your responsibility to prove that it is wrong not mine to prove it is right.
www.conservapedia.com...
"""The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, not assigned by the critic to himself"""
As to why ""I"" do not except the religious belief of evolution,
1. Cosmic evolution- the origin of time, space and matter. Big Bang. No one there to see it happen religious belief.
2. Chemical evolution- the origin of higher elements from hydrogen.
3. Stellar and planetary evolution- Origin of stars and planets.
4. Organic evolution- Origin of life from inanimate matter.
5. Macroevolution- Origin of major kinds.
6. Microevolution Variations within kinds- Only this one has been observed, the first five are religious. They are believed, by faith, even though there is no empirical evidence to prove them in any way. While I admire the great faith of the evolutionists who accept the first five I object to having this religious propaganda included in with legitimate science at taxpayer’s expense.
The above is the six kinds of evolution that would have to take place for evolutionary beliefs to be true, only the last one is agreed upon by Bible believers and evolutionary believers. That one happens every day.
We engineer corn and plant is and walla up comes corn. We breed a big dog with a little dog and again a dog is born. Variation and adaptation do exist and is not proof that the other 5 above definitions are true.
Man has never ever seen any live birth example of evolution and fossils do not constitute proof, Why? because dead bones are just that, one can not prove if they came from an organism different than itself or that it had any offspring. Just because it does not exist today does not mean that it is a relative of something today.
As I stated above no one can prove for a fact either case, but if the Bible is true then there should be some predictions that would show that we were created as stated.
The Bible says that the world was destroyed
Genesis 6
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living
substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
[21] And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
So with that said and the water was upon the earth for over a year. Lets see what predictions could be made
1. Well the Bible says that the fountains of the deep broke up, well deep sea exploration has proved there are fountains or springs deep under the oceans.
2. Windows of heaven, I will not get to into the definition but in the beginning there was a layer of water in the form of ice which would have created double the air pressure we have today which allow the Pterosaurs to fly with its 50 foot wing span.
3. Also this greater air pressure would allow for plants and animals to grow larger.
4. The air pressure would allow for quicker healing, check out how a hyperbaric chamber helps.
www.genoxinc.com...
5. With these kind of conditions reptiles which grow until they die would grow extremely large.
6. Since a flood happen globally you should see large coal deposits, large mass graves of animals (fossil beds)
7. Since it took 40 days to cover the planet you would first see the slow moving organisms at the bottom, then larger and larger animals as they would move to higher ground until cut off and the last you would see flying animals.
8. www.s8int.com...
You should find man made objects in lower than normal levels as the link show they have and do.
9. There should be evidence that man and dinosaurs (a recently made word as dragon was the word to describe these large creatures was in use until the 1800's)
www.crystalinks.com...
Shows men killing, riding and such dragons or dinosaurs,
China, England, Persia, ect. ect all have tales ( which are considered myths to use as we have been brain washed into thinking that dinosaurs and man did not exist together.)
As late as the early 1900's tribes from areas in Africa have told of a large long necked creature in the Congo,
in South America the spoke of a large Bird like reptile that would scoop up children.
Job 40
[15] Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
[16] Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
[17] He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
[18] His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
There are no animals today that this description fits, sounds like a brontosaurus to me.
leviathan
[14] Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
[15] His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
[16] One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
[17] They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
[18] By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
[19] Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
[20] Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
[21] His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
Flame breathing animals hmmph. Myth or reality??
Genesis 1
[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. ( this was not the clouds we see today as there was no rain upon the earth until the flood)
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9. The earth is filled with sedimentary rock almost everywhere, which would be expected if the earth were covered by water. The tides would be over 200' high twice a day which would scour the land scape.
This is just about the flood and the visible evidence in support of it which shows that the flood did happen.
Now for Israel, they were broken up and scattered all over the earth as the Bible said would happen.
Then after nearly 2000 years they become a nation again with there language, money, religion. Just as the Bible has stated.
and is said that the generation shall not pass before the completion of the prophecies of Revelations.
""""""""I've tried multiple times to put forth the vast mountains of evidence that support evolution, only to be ignored or to have these explanations waved away.
I've tried asking creationists what their specific problem is with evolution, only to not get many direct answers and to have my explanations of the problems again get waved away.
Well, evolution is a positive position, it requires proof, which I've tried to provide. Creationism/ID is also a positive position, so it also requires proof.
Lately, I've not seen a single person put forth an argument for the creationist perspective, I've only seen attacks on the evolutionary theory, as if disproving the evolutionary theory would immediately put the creationist/ID theory into the place of truthfulness. This is not true. You need to provide your own proof.
So, where is it? """"""""""
Well as for either case of origins no one can assuredly prove their case as no one mortal was around at the exact moment the earth was created, (or in an evolutionary believers case expanded and contracted).
Though there was someone who was in the spiritual God=Jesus, and six days later Adam and Eve.
Now with those who do not Believe that the Bible is the dictated word of God from beginning to end with out error must understand it is your responsibility to prove that it is wrong not mine to prove it is right.
www.conservapedia.com...
"""The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, not assigned by the critic to himself"""
As to why ""I"" do not except the religious belief of evolution,
1. Cosmic evolution- the origin of time, space and matter. Big Bang. No one there to see it happen religious belief.
2. Chemical evolution- the origin of higher elements from hydrogen.
3. Stellar and planetary evolution- Origin of stars and planets.
4. Organic evolution- Origin of life from inanimate matter.
5. Macroevolution- Origin of major kinds.
6. Microevolution Variations within kinds- Only this one has been observed, the first five are religious. They are believed, by faith, even though there is no empirical evidence to prove them in any way. While I admire the great faith of the evolutionists who accept the first five I object to having this religious propaganda included in with legitimate science at taxpayer’s expense.
The above is the six kinds of evolution that would have to take place for evolutionary beliefs to be true, only the last one is agreed upon by Bible believers and evolutionary believers. That one happens every day.
We engineer corn and plant is and walla up comes corn. We breed a big dog with a little dog and again a dog is born. Variation and adaptation do exist and is not proof that the other 5 above definitions are true.
Man has never ever seen any live birth example of evolution and fossils do not constitute proof, Why? because dead bones are just that, one can not prove if they came from an organism different than itself or that it had any offspring. Just because it does not exist today does not mean that it is a relative of something today.
As I stated above no one can prove for a fact either case, but if the Bible is true then there should be some predictions that would show that we were created as stated.
The Bible says that the world was destroyed
Genesis 6
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living
substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
[21] And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
So with that said and the water was upon the earth for over a year. Lets see what predictions could be made
1. Well the Bible says that the fountains of the deep broke up, well deep sea exploration has proved there are fountains or springs deep under the oceans.
2. Windows of heaven, I will not get to into the definition but in the beginning there was a layer of water in the form of ice which would have created double the air pressure we have today which allow the Pterosaurs to fly with its 50 foot wing span.
3. Also this greater air pressure would allow for plants and animals to grow larger.
4. The air pressure would allow for quicker healing, check out how a hyperbaric chamber helps.
www.genoxinc.com...
5. With these kind of conditions reptiles which grow until they die would grow extremely large.
6. Since a flood happen globally you should see large coal deposits, large mass graves of animals (fossil beds)
7. Since it took 40 days to cover the planet you would first see the slow moving organisms at the bottom, then larger and larger animals as they would move to higher ground until cut off and the last you would see flying animals.
8. www.s8int.com...
You should find man made objects in lower than normal levels as the link show they have and do.
9. There should be evidence that man and dinosaurs (a recently made word as dragon was the word to describe these large creatures was in use until the 1800's)
www.crystalinks.com...
Shows men killing, riding and such dragons or dinosaurs,
China, England, Persia, ect. ect all have tales ( which are considered myths to use as we have been brain washed into thinking that dinosaurs and man did not exist together.)
As late as the early 1900's tribes from areas in Africa have told of a large long necked creature in the Congo,
in South America the spoke of a large Bird like reptile that would scoop up children.
Job 40
[15] Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
[16] Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
[17] He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
[18] His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
There are no animals today that this description fits, sounds like a brontosaurus to me.
leviathan
[14] Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
[15] His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
[16] One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
[17] They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
[18] By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
[19] Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
[20] Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
[21] His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
Flame breathing animals hmmph. Myth or reality??
Genesis 1
[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. ( this was not the clouds we see today as there was no rain upon the earth until the flood)
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9. The earth is filled with sedimentary rock almost everywhere, which would be expected if the earth were covered by water. The tides would be over 200' high twice a day which would scour the land scape.
This is just about the flood and the visible evidence in support of it which shows that the flood did happen.
Now for Israel, they were broken up and scattered all over the earth as the Bible said would happen.
Then after nearly 2000 years they become a nation again with there language, money, religion. Just as the Bible has stated.
and is said that the generation shall not pass before the completion of the prophecies of Revelations.
reply to post by ACTS 2:38
Dear God! You used conservapedia as a source for evolution. Typical Christian.
Funny Article
Another great article
I have some websites for you to look over and ask your opinion on.
Basic Questions
Arguments for God
The Dragon in my Garage
Dear God! You used conservapedia as a source for evolution. Typical Christian.
Funny Article
Another great article
I have some websites for you to look over and ask your opinion on.
Basic Questions
Arguments for God
The Dragon in my Garage
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
By the way! I have some more sites to share.
Since you mentioned Noah's Ark. Why don't you check out all the other similar flood stories.
Flood Myth
Epic of Gilgamesh
As well these similar stories of creation.
Top 10 creation article
Creation similarities
By the way! I have some more sites to share.
Since you mentioned Noah's Ark. Why don't you check out all the other similar flood stories.
Flood Myth
Epic of Gilgamesh
As well these similar stories of creation.
Top 10 creation article
Creation similarities
It is difficult to explain faith. Because you're the person who believes it in life. As a Christian I can't explain my faith to others to make them
want to join. They can join freely. But trying to prove these figures existed is difficult. Like my cousin RR tells me everyone interprets Jesus
differently as well other religious figures. So who's to say who is right and who is wrong? Just live life!
John would have been 70 today
i think he had the right idea
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
i think he had the right idea
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
You have not proved your point as the only use is for the definition of Aristotle's dictum
www.conservapedia.com...
"""The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, not assigned by the critic to himself"""
and not for anything to do with my argument of the religious belief of evolution.
those I have used other sites.
So you did not read anything I said and only have posted your presupposition belief of anti Jesus and the bible.
If you chose not to define the worlds visible evidence with biblical views that is your choosing.
I myself work in excavation and can and do see the evidence myself and do not except the beliefs of government indoctrinated can not think anything for myself people.
Schools do not teach critical thinking most people do not observe the things they quote nor test the theories. They accept what some one who paid lots of money to be indoctrinated writes down on paper as gospel and never reproves it!
Deny ignorance means to do more than just read but to chase every aspect of your belief, making sure that you understand the words and definitions you are using.
As for your beliefs in other things yet dismissal of dragons is your loss.
Aliens are comming.
www.nwcreation.net...
www.nwcreation.net...
You have not proved your point as the only use is for the definition of Aristotle's dictum
www.conservapedia.com...
"""The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, not assigned by the critic to himself"""
and not for anything to do with my argument of the religious belief of evolution.
those I have used other sites.
So you did not read anything I said and only have posted your presupposition belief of anti Jesus and the bible.
If you chose not to define the worlds visible evidence with biblical views that is your choosing.
I myself work in excavation and can and do see the evidence myself and do not except the beliefs of government indoctrinated can not think anything for myself people.
Schools do not teach critical thinking most people do not observe the things they quote nor test the theories. They accept what some one who paid lots of money to be indoctrinated writes down on paper as gospel and never reproves it!
Deny ignorance means to do more than just read but to chase every aspect of your belief, making sure that you understand the words and definitions you are using.
As for your beliefs in other things yet dismissal of dragons is your loss.
Aliens are comming.
www.nwcreation.net...
www.nwcreation.net...
edit on 10-10-2010 by ACTS 2:38 because: add to
reply to post by ACTS 2:38
Using Conservapedia as a source for anything is beyond retarded!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???
That's like using a spongebob cartoon to explain quantum mechanics. Imo the mere action of believing anything on that site states, turns you into a brainwashed religious zombie moron.
Using Conservapedia as a source for anything is beyond retarded!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???
That's like using a spongebob cartoon to explain quantum mechanics. Imo the mere action of believing anything on that site states, turns you into a brainwashed religious zombie moron.
edit on 10-10-2010 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)
You guys really should not be surpised ACTS 2:38 used Conservapedia as a source.
What is your guys favorite Conservapedia article ?
edit on 10-10-2010 by nophun because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Myendica
Originally posted by Myendica
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
what about the sacred ratio? fiburnacci ?? numbers... its found almost everywhere.. is that proof?
How are the Fibonacci numbers proof of a deity and creation? How are they 'sacred'?
Being prevalent doesn't mean that they're proof of creation.
Here is how they are sacred and evidence of a designing, transcendental intelligence:
smphillips.8m.com...
smphillips.8m.com...
After mastering these research papers, try studying many of the 51 other articles, which offer even more remarkable, mathematical proof of the existence of divine design behind superstrings, human DNA, the human skeleton, the seven musical diatonic scales and other examples of holistic systems. This is groundbreaking research that provides the irrefutable, mathematical connection between religion and science.
edit on
10-10-2010 by micpsi because: reply added in wrong place.
reply to post by ACTS 2:38
Jesus! You're wrong on evolution. You used a Christian bias website.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
This thread is by me and it explains evolution.
Jesus! You're wrong on evolution. You used a Christian bias website.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
This thread is by me and it explains evolution.
Originally posted by snowen20
But that probably wouldn't go well with the evolutionist who likes to arrogantly claim we are the only creatures in the universe, an arrogance that is just as fanatical as the bible thumper screaming about redemption on a soap box.
Whats the difference? One soap box is just paid for by an educational foundation.
Which evolutionist would that be? I don't believe I've run across one making that claim, but then I've not read every single one of them. The few folks I've heard say we are the only creatures were more towards the fundamentalist Christian end of the spectrum.
Originally posted by micpsi
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Myendica
Originally posted by Myendica
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
what about the sacred ratio? fiburnacci ?? numbers... its found almost everywhere.. is that proof?
How are the Fibonacci numbers proof of a deity and creation? How are they 'sacred'?
Being prevalent doesn't mean that they're proof of creation.
Here is how they are sacred and evidence of a designing, transcendental intelligence:
smphillips.8m.com...
smphillips.8m.com...
After mastering these research papers, try studying many of the 51 other articles, which offer even more remarkable, mathematical proof of the existence of divine design behind superstrings, human DNA, the human skeleton, the seven musical diatonic scales and other examples of holistic systems. This is groundbreaking research that provides the irrefutable, mathematical connection between religion and science.edit on 10-10-2010 by micpsi because: reply added in wrong place.
All those articles do is either attribute complexity or order to a supreme being. That's not proof, that's guesswork. That's like me saying "OMG, the milk is white....there is a god". One thing has nothing to do with eachother.
reply to post by ACTS 2:38
You don't need a mortal to be present to prove and event happened. We can explain reasonably what happened if a derelict building collapses and nobody was there to witness it from the wreckage.
Alright, scientific standard comes into play. Please, prove these claims.
I'm sorry, that's a load of manure.
Why is Aristotle correct on this? I'm sorry, but that's an argument from authority used to subvert the basis upon which modern thought is established. Philosophy has progressed from Aristotle, he isn't an absolute authority on reason.
The benefit of the doubt is supposed to be on the skeptical position (ie, that stuff didn't happen). If you claim something happened, please prove it.
Unless you are going to prove it I can equally claim that the magnificent Flying Spaghetti Monster unintelligently designed all beings.
I can also claim that the Invisible Pink Unicorn farted, creating the universe after having a bit too much chipotle the night before.
I'm sorry, how is concrete science a religious belief?
I'm sorry, but 'cosmic evolution' isn't actually at all related to the biological theory of evolution. It's just using the same word in a different way. Or are you unaware that a word can have multiple meanings?
And how is the inability of humans to directly witness something enough to justify something as a religious belief? We can use scientific reasoning with observable data to piece events together.
Or do you just say 'god did it!' when you come home from a day out and a piece of your furniture has collapsed?
I sure don't. I tend to look at the piece of furniture and examine it to see exactly what was damaged and eventually gave way.
We can't see the entire event, but we can piece it together from the current state of things.
Again, same word different definition.
We can witness that every day by looking up. Ok, staring at the son isn't exactly the brightest idea *rimshot* but it's still evidence enough that higher elements can arise from hydrogen.
Once more, same word different definition.
We can actually observe the origins of stars through astronomy and piece together the typical life cycle of stellar bodies. We're also doing the same with planetary bodies, though it's a bit more difficult since there's insanely small in comparison to stars.
This one is just an insanely stupid one. It's called abiogenesis, read up on it
Further creationist inanity. Please define the term "kind" in a scientific sense regarding biological entities.
Well, you're right about one thing so far: Microevolution has been observed.
Stellar 'evolution' has been observed by astronomers. I've seen chemical 'evolution' most days of my life and scientists have observed it in experimental fusion reactors and fusion bombs.
As for Macroevolution. There's plenty
of
evidence
Sorry, there's plenty of evidence.
Again, you've yet to show how it is propaganda
I'm sorry, but that's simply untrue. Evolutionary biology (which you've oddly split into the 'macro' and 'micro' categories) need only one thing: A planet that has formed in any manner imaginable and life that has arisen in any manner imaginable.
Evolution is about life, not about the cosmos or chemistry or anything else.
None of those are definitions of evolution.
We actually witness them daily. Evolution revolves around two things: new mutations and natural selection.
Each human child is born with DNA not found in either parent in the form of new mutations. Over enough time this sort of things leads to speciation.
Um...well, we can actually track the evolutionary progression of species from fossil records. We can see that this species dies out but this species takes its place and is sort of similar but not the same species.
We see not just the evolution of individual species through the fossil record but the evolution of all life. We see life leave the sea and then take to the air. We see life go from invertebrate to vertebrate, jawless to jawed, etc etc.
Why is it that we don't find a cute little bunny skeleton in the precambrian? It hasn't evolved yet, that's why.
Well, that's actually true and no evolutionary biologist would disagree. The problem is that some of them are ancestors of modern organisms. Some organisms simply go extinct, others evolve.
Oh FSM, not this again.
Let's see you try to prove this. And let's see how many of these arguments I've heard before.
Heard this one before.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't prove that the Bible was right. That's taking things to a ridiculous standard. They would have had to release enough water for the Earth to be flooded and there's no evidence that would have happened.
Heard this one before.... too many times. The words of "Dr. Dino" have been taken as fact when it's clearly false.
Can you prove how an ice layer above the Earth would double air pressure? Then could you factor in exactly the amount of water that would have to be contained in that ice layer and what the thickness would be?
Alright, now calculate the amount that this massive ice sheet would either:
A (if clear): Focus the light of the sun, heating everything up and possibly boiling us to death in a massive greenhouse effect.
or
B (if foggy): Block out the light of the sun causing an ice age.
And further more, how would an increase in air pressure allow for something to be able to fly more easily?
Again, Hovind. Heard it so many times.
I'm sorry, but how does that work? I mean, simply stating it does absolutely nothing to prove it.
And why aren't ancient humans taller than their modern counterparts?
Explain to me how it would work on a planetary scale. Use mathematics.
And I've heard this one. You've definitely been sucked in by Hovind.
Heard it as well.
Reptiles don't continue to grow until they get extremely large. Their physical structure wouldn't follow the square-cube law
Basically, skeletal structures for animals don't scale up like this. It would actually be disadvantages for a reptile to grow bigger. There are plenty of lizards that only reproduce because they're small and they hide.
Oh, now you're getting into things I started hearing when I first came on to ATS. The nostalgia of it all.
You can't answer coal deposits from instant mass drownings. If that were true we could create coal in a lab by drowning a bunch of mice quickly.
Except that's not at all how things are sorted in the fossil record. We see animals of various speeds and sizes in different parts. The Jurassic had both fast and slow moving animals in the same layer.
Hoaxes, one and all. Please provide me with evidence from scientific papers that include radiometric data, close forensic analysis from archeologists and paleontologists, or any other actual evidence that would support any of those claims.
Now let's take a little pause, let me post some eye-opening videos for you, I'm posting them as links even though they're from YouTube as some language might be found objectionable by mods and I don't want to take a risk:
One
Two
Three
Four
Five
Six
And the "Why do people laught at creationists?" series
Yes, there should be a lot of fossil evidence. There should be dinosaurs in our early cave paintings. Why don't those show up? You have things that people claim are 'ancient astronauts' but not a single dinosaur.
Crystal links? Please, science and reason only. None of those images has citation or links to their discovery. I can't verify any of it.
Nope, it's not that we've been brainwashed, it's that we know that the Flinstones isn't a documentary.
Those tales are no more evidence of the coexistence of humanity and dinosaurs than the universality of vampire myths is proof of those creatures.
And not a single one of those tales accurately describes an actual dinosaur.
Yes, and that doesn't mean it's true. Tales originate from various sources. Some come from fear of the unknown, some are made to scare small children into behaving and become part of the culture, some come from boredom.
They're not evidence.
Um...the brontosaurus ate grass?
Its strength was in its loins and its force in the navel of its belly?
It had a tail that moved incredibly stiffly in a breeze?
That last one is just absurd. Show me evidence of a brontosaurus that had bones that strong.
Last thing on the dino thing, why the hell aren't there humans buried with trophies from dinosaurs?
Well, dinosaurs weren't scaled...
And there's absolutely no evidence of fire breathing animals. There isn't a realistic way for it to work.
It's odd that you quoted Genesis 1 instead of Genesis 2, because Genesis 2 is where Adam and Eve come in, yet humans are already created by the end of Genesis 1...
I'm sorry, but there has yet to be any evidence for it.
I'm sorry, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.
Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
Well as for either case of origins no one can assuredly prove their case as no one mortal was around at the exact moment the earth was created, (or in an evolutionary believers case expanded and contracted).
You don't need a mortal to be present to prove and event happened. We can explain reasonably what happened if a derelict building collapses and nobody was there to witness it from the wreckage.
Though there was someone who was in the spiritual God=Jesus, and six days later Adam and Eve.
Alright, scientific standard comes into play. Please, prove these claims.
Now with those who do not Believe that the Bible is the dictated word of God from beginning to end with out error must understand it is your responsibility to prove that it is wrong not mine to prove it is right.
I'm sorry, that's a load of manure.
www.conservapedia.com...
"""The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, not assigned by the critic to himself"""
Why is Aristotle correct on this? I'm sorry, but that's an argument from authority used to subvert the basis upon which modern thought is established. Philosophy has progressed from Aristotle, he isn't an absolute authority on reason.
The benefit of the doubt is supposed to be on the skeptical position (ie, that stuff didn't happen). If you claim something happened, please prove it.
Unless you are going to prove it I can equally claim that the magnificent Flying Spaghetti Monster unintelligently designed all beings.
I can also claim that the Invisible Pink Unicorn farted, creating the universe after having a bit too much chipotle the night before.
As to why ""I"" do not except the religious belief of evolution,
I'm sorry, how is concrete science a religious belief?
1. Cosmic evolution- the origin of time, space and matter. Big Bang. No one there to see it happen religious belief.
I'm sorry, but 'cosmic evolution' isn't actually at all related to the biological theory of evolution. It's just using the same word in a different way. Or are you unaware that a word can have multiple meanings?
And how is the inability of humans to directly witness something enough to justify something as a religious belief? We can use scientific reasoning with observable data to piece events together.
Or do you just say 'god did it!' when you come home from a day out and a piece of your furniture has collapsed?
I sure don't. I tend to look at the piece of furniture and examine it to see exactly what was damaged and eventually gave way.
We can't see the entire event, but we can piece it together from the current state of things.
2. Chemical evolution- the origin of higher elements from hydrogen.
Again, same word different definition.
We can witness that every day by looking up. Ok, staring at the son isn't exactly the brightest idea *rimshot* but it's still evidence enough that higher elements can arise from hydrogen.
3. Stellar and planetary evolution- Origin of stars and planets.
Once more, same word different definition.
We can actually observe the origins of stars through astronomy and piece together the typical life cycle of stellar bodies. We're also doing the same with planetary bodies, though it's a bit more difficult since there's insanely small in comparison to stars.
4. Organic evolution- Origin of life from inanimate matter.
This one is just an insanely stupid one. It's called abiogenesis, read up on it
5. Macroevolution- Origin of major kinds.
Further creationist inanity. Please define the term "kind" in a scientific sense regarding biological entities.
6. Microevolution Variations within kinds- Only this one has been observed, the first five are religious.
Well, you're right about one thing so far: Microevolution has been observed.
Stellar 'evolution' has been observed by astronomers. I've seen chemical 'evolution' most days of my life and scientists have observed it in experimental fusion reactors and fusion bombs.
As for Macroevolution. There's plenty
of
evidence
They are believed, by faith, even though there is no empirical evidence to prove them in any way.
Sorry, there's plenty of evidence.
While I admire the great faith of the evolutionists who accept the first five I object to having this religious propaganda included in with legitimate science at taxpayer’s expense.
Again, you've yet to show how it is propaganda
The above is the six kinds of evolution that would have to take place for evolutionary beliefs to be true, only the last one is agreed upon by Bible believers and evolutionary believers.
I'm sorry, but that's simply untrue. Evolutionary biology (which you've oddly split into the 'macro' and 'micro' categories) need only one thing: A planet that has formed in any manner imaginable and life that has arisen in any manner imaginable.
Evolution is about life, not about the cosmos or chemistry or anything else.
That one happens every day.
We engineer corn and plant is and walla up comes corn. We breed a big dog with a little dog and again a dog is born. Variation and adaptation do exist and is not proof that the other 5 above definitions are true.
None of those are definitions of evolution.
Man has never ever seen any live birth example of evolution
We actually witness them daily. Evolution revolves around two things: new mutations and natural selection.
Each human child is born with DNA not found in either parent in the form of new mutations. Over enough time this sort of things leads to speciation.
and fossils do not constitute proof, Why? because dead bones are just that, one can not prove if they came from an organism different than itself or that it had any offspring.
Um...well, we can actually track the evolutionary progression of species from fossil records. We can see that this species dies out but this species takes its place and is sort of similar but not the same species.
We see not just the evolution of individual species through the fossil record but the evolution of all life. We see life leave the sea and then take to the air. We see life go from invertebrate to vertebrate, jawless to jawed, etc etc.
Why is it that we don't find a cute little bunny skeleton in the precambrian? It hasn't evolved yet, that's why.
Just because it does not exist today does not mean that it is a relative of something today.
Well, that's actually true and no evolutionary biologist would disagree. The problem is that some of them are ancestors of modern organisms. Some organisms simply go extinct, others evolve.
As I stated above no one can prove for a fact either case, but if the Bible is true then there should be some predictions that would show that we were created as stated.
Oh FSM, not this again.
The Bible says that the world was destroyed
Genesis 6
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living
substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
[21] And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Let's see you try to prove this. And let's see how many of these arguments I've heard before.
So with that said and the water was upon the earth for over a year. Lets see what predictions could be made
1. Well the Bible says that the fountains of the deep broke up, well deep sea exploration has proved there are fountains or springs deep under the oceans.
Heard this one before.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't prove that the Bible was right. That's taking things to a ridiculous standard. They would have had to release enough water for the Earth to be flooded and there's no evidence that would have happened.
2. Windows of heaven, I will not get to into the definition but in the beginning there was a layer of water in the form of ice which would have created double the air pressure we have today which allow the Pterosaurs to fly with its 50 foot wing span.
Heard this one before.... too many times. The words of "Dr. Dino" have been taken as fact when it's clearly false.
Can you prove how an ice layer above the Earth would double air pressure? Then could you factor in exactly the amount of water that would have to be contained in that ice layer and what the thickness would be?
Alright, now calculate the amount that this massive ice sheet would either:
A (if clear): Focus the light of the sun, heating everything up and possibly boiling us to death in a massive greenhouse effect.
or
B (if foggy): Block out the light of the sun causing an ice age.
And further more, how would an increase in air pressure allow for something to be able to fly more easily?
3. Also this greater air pressure would allow for plants and animals to grow larger.
Again, Hovind. Heard it so many times.
I'm sorry, but how does that work? I mean, simply stating it does absolutely nothing to prove it.
And why aren't ancient humans taller than their modern counterparts?
4. The air pressure would allow for quicker healing, check out how a hyperbaric chamber helps.
www.genoxinc.com...
Explain to me how it would work on a planetary scale. Use mathematics.
And I've heard this one. You've definitely been sucked in by Hovind.
5. With these kind of conditions reptiles which grow until they die would grow extremely large.
Heard it as well.
Reptiles don't continue to grow until they get extremely large. Their physical structure wouldn't follow the square-cube law
When an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier and its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier.
Basically, skeletal structures for animals don't scale up like this. It would actually be disadvantages for a reptile to grow bigger. There are plenty of lizards that only reproduce because they're small and they hide.
6. Since a flood happen globally you should see large coal deposits, large mass graves of animals (fossil beds)
Oh, now you're getting into things I started hearing when I first came on to ATS. The nostalgia of it all.
You can't answer coal deposits from instant mass drownings. If that were true we could create coal in a lab by drowning a bunch of mice quickly.
7. Since it took 40 days to cover the planet you would first see the slow moving organisms at the bottom, then larger and larger animals as they would move to higher ground until cut off and the last you would see flying animals.
Except that's not at all how things are sorted in the fossil record. We see animals of various speeds and sizes in different parts. The Jurassic had both fast and slow moving animals in the same layer.
8. www.s8int.com...
You should find man made objects in lower than normal levels as the link show they have and do.
Hoaxes, one and all. Please provide me with evidence from scientific papers that include radiometric data, close forensic analysis from archeologists and paleontologists, or any other actual evidence that would support any of those claims.
Now let's take a little pause, let me post some eye-opening videos for you, I'm posting them as links even though they're from YouTube as some language might be found objectionable by mods and I don't want to take a risk:
One
Two
Three
Four
Five
Six
And the "Why do people laught at creationists?" series
9. There should be evidence that man and dinosaurs (a recently made word as dragon was the word to describe these large creatures was in use until the 1800's)
Yes, there should be a lot of fossil evidence. There should be dinosaurs in our early cave paintings. Why don't those show up? You have things that people claim are 'ancient astronauts' but not a single dinosaur.
www.crystalinks.com...
Shows men killing, riding and such dragons or dinosaurs,
Crystal links? Please, science and reason only. None of those images has citation or links to their discovery. I can't verify any of it.
China, England, Persia, ect. ect all have tales ( which are considered myths to use as we have been brain washed into thinking that dinosaurs and man did not exist together.)
Nope, it's not that we've been brainwashed, it's that we know that the Flinstones isn't a documentary.
Those tales are no more evidence of the coexistence of humanity and dinosaurs than the universality of vampire myths is proof of those creatures.
And not a single one of those tales accurately describes an actual dinosaur.
As late as the early 1900's tribes from areas in Africa have told of a large long necked creature in the Congo,
in South America the spoke of a large Bird like reptile that would scoop up children.
Yes, and that doesn't mean it's true. Tales originate from various sources. Some come from fear of the unknown, some are made to scare small children into behaving and become part of the culture, some come from boredom.
They're not evidence.
Job 40
[15] Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
[16] Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
[17] He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
[18] His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
There are no animals today that this description fits, sounds like a brontosaurus to me.
leviathan
Um...the brontosaurus ate grass?
Its strength was in its loins and its force in the navel of its belly?
It had a tail that moved incredibly stiffly in a breeze?
That last one is just absurd. Show me evidence of a brontosaurus that had bones that strong.
Last thing on the dino thing, why the hell aren't there humans buried with trophies from dinosaurs?
[14] Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
[15] His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
[16] One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
[17] They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
[18] By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
[19] Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
[20] Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
[21] His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
Flame breathing animals hmmph. Myth or reality??
Well, dinosaurs weren't scaled...
And there's absolutely no evidence of fire breathing animals. There isn't a realistic way for it to work.
Genesis 1
[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. ( this was not the clouds we see today as there was no rain upon the earth until the flood)
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9. The earth is filled with sedimentary rock almost everywhere, which would be expected if the earth were covered by water. The tides would be over 200' high twice a day which would scour the land scape.
It's odd that you quoted Genesis 1 instead of Genesis 2, because Genesis 2 is where Adam and Eve come in, yet humans are already created by the end of Genesis 1...
This is just about the flood and the visible evidence in support of it which shows that the flood did happen.
I'm sorry, but there has yet to be any evidence for it.
Now for Israel, they were broken up and scattered all over the earth as the Bible said would happen.
Then after nearly 2000 years they become a nation again with there language, money, religion. Just as the Bible has stated.
and is said that the generation shall not pass before the completion of the prophecies of Revelations.
I'm sorry, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.
The metaphysical duality is the basis and the foundation of thought; hence, the basis and foundation of all scientific dualisms.
According to Descartes? That sorry argument was debunked by Nietzsche well over a century ago. What is the 'it' that thinks? Do you consciously decide to have thoughts? Or do they appear within the frame of consciousness as though arrived from elsewhere? You know the answer. Consciousness is not the precursor.
Science recognizes no duality of mind and matter.
This, of course, is in accordance with the rules of the paradigm established by the consciousness of the 'thinker'. That is not necessarily the only frame of reference in terms of consciousness.
Meaning that there are other consciousnesses? Or some kind of transcendent consciousness?
The imprecision of your words suggests that you are not clear in your own mind about your views, or else that you are only too aware of their flaws and trying to obscure them in a cloud of waffle.
Astyanax: We can watch brains at work creating consciousness, and we see that it has a material basis after all.
Nonsense. This is merely... in accordance with the paradigm of the consciousness of the 'thinker'; that is, time going only in one direction.
You have to claim time goes backwards in order to substantiate your postion?
edit on 11/10/10 by Astyanax because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Astyanax
You have to claim time goes backwards in order to substantiate your postion?
Difficult to know where to start in responding to someone who is so woefully uninformed about what has been going on in physics, philosophy, psychology, the science of consciousness, etc. etc. etc. over the past 50 years or so.
You might want to look at Reverse Speech Analysis, or the discussions on the Sarfatti Physics Seminars Yahoo discussion group, or the teaching of Krishnamurti at the Krishnamurti Foundation of America website; but I seriously doubt that you would even so much as recognize their relevance to your misunderstanding of the whole issue of time.
Good luck.
But don't look at the information on the website under my signature.
It would only irritate you further.
Michael
reply to post by Michael Cecil
As difficult, perhaps, as knowing how to respond with courtesy to someone so pompous and patronizing. Suffice to say that, like most internet autodidacts, you seem not to make any distinction between knowledge and speculation. No doubt you cherish some piece of wish-horse riding-tackle that allows you to elide the difference, at least in your own head.
Well, it's good you weren't intending to impress; failure can be so galling.
I think you mean 'speculations', not 'observations'.
Difficult to know where to start in responding to someone who is so woefully uninformed about what has been going on in physics, philosophy, psychology, the science of consciousness, etc. etc. etc. over the past 50 years or so.
As difficult, perhaps, as knowing how to respond with courtesy to someone so pompous and patronizing. Suffice to say that, like most internet autodidacts, you seem not to make any distinction between knowledge and speculation. No doubt you cherish some piece of wish-horse riding-tackle that allows you to elide the difference, at least in your own head.
It certainly is not my intention to impress you or anyone else. I am merely sharing my observations.
Well, it's good you weren't intending to impress; failure can be so galling.
I think you mean 'speculations', not 'observations'.
Now that this thread was drawn significantly off-topic, would anyone like to try and provide evidence for creationism and/or intelligent design?
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Now that this thread was drawn significantly off-topic, would anyone like to try and provide evidence for creationism and/or intelligent design?
There you go, proof
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Good Sir, I applaud your efforts to carry the torch of reason, critical thinking, and modern knowledge into the dark caverns of ignorance. Your toil is especially noteworthy, considering that you persist in doing so on a forum that is teeming with superstitious belief and gullibility. Crystal energy, extraterrestrial visitation, Reptilian masters, magic, Holocaust denial - it's astonishing.
Good Sir, I applaud your efforts to carry the torch of reason, critical thinking, and modern knowledge into the dark caverns of ignorance. Your toil is especially noteworthy, considering that you persist in doing so on a forum that is teeming with superstitious belief and gullibility. Crystal energy, extraterrestrial visitation, Reptilian masters, magic, Holocaust denial - it's astonishing.
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